Sacrament of Baptism

edited December 1969 in Coptic Orthodox Church
Hi all
I am just wondering why we completely immerse a baby in water during baptism,
and why does the Catholic church just pour the water over the babies head

Comments

  • Because there is a controversy whether Jesus was actually immersed in the water during his baptism
    or if John the Baptist just poured the water over his head

    What do you guys think
  • All babies were baptised by immersion, this was the normal way for all people to be baptised.

    The Roman Catholic Church changed their practice in the Middle Ages.

    Father Peter
  • Matthew 3:16
    When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him.

    Mark 1: 9-10
    It came to pass in those days that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized by John in the Jordan. And immediately, coming up from the water, He saw the heavens parting and the Spirit descending upon Him like a dove.


    Coming up from the water mean He was first down in the water.
    It's also about the symbolism; we die with Him, and rise in HIM.
  • we completely immerse older children and adults too  :)
  • The Catholic Church still does (sometimes) immerse babies in water. It was done at my hometown parish, though I don't know the circumstances surrounding it (I don't know if you have specifically ask for that or what). For adults in the Latin rite there is no immersion, though, which is rather sad. I myself received only pouring over the head, which honestly felt even then like a bit of a rip-off, as the RCIA class I went through was honest that this was changed from what had been the norm in all of Christianity.
  • Does anyone have the saint that said: 

    When doing Baptism the person should be immerse in running cold water first (Ie river?), and if there is no running cold water available it should be done in a tub , and if there is no tub available water can be poured 3 times over the head in the name of (Father, Son, Holy Spirit).
  • I think that the Catholic Catechism does not promote the idea of baptism by immersion as being preferred, and I do note that some Roman Catholic churches are starting to have baptisteries. Certainly if the Roman Catholics returned to their own more ancient tradition this would be one less issue to have to deal with in terms of ecumenical conversations.
  • You're probably thinking of the Didache.

    Concerning Baptism. And concerning baptism, baptize this way: Having first said all these things, baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living water. But if you have no living water, baptize into other water; and if you cannot do so in cold water, do so in warm. But if you have neither, pour out water three times upon the head into the name of Father and Son and Holy Spirit. But before the baptism let the baptizer fast, and the baptized, and whoever else can; but you shall order the baptized to fast one or two days before.
  • The word baptism caries in the action of immersion. Catholic Copts have returned to immersion.
  • baptizo [Greek]= total submersion, person buried in water

    Romans 6
    4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
    5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection

    Submersion in water must be the most correct way during Baptism. I know people who on the first opportunity requested to be baptized again after they learned their parents were not sure that they were immersed in baptismal water or they were told they were baptized by pouring or washing, it is that important.

    GBU
  • [quote author=John_S2000 link=topic=11101.msg134236#msg134236 date=1301236982]
    baptizo [Greek]= total submersion, person buried in water

    Romans 6
    4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
    5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection

    Submersion in water must be the most correct way during Baptism. I know people who on the first opportunity requested to be baptized again after they learned their parents were not sure that they were immersed in baptismal water or they were told they were baptized by pouring or washing, it is that important.

    GBU


    Good stuff here!  These weren't orthodox people, right?  since: one baptism, etc.
  • I agree with MarchMadness

    these people cant be orthodox to have been baptized more than once.

    But personally I think that no church should allow anybody to be baptized more than once.
    What do you guys think?
  • Also
    thank you everyone for the replies
    and for the amazing quotes from the bible

    thanks!
  • I have a question concerning baptism.
    If you are a Catholic and baptised, would you get baptised agains if you become orthodox?
    God bless, Pray for me,
    Cyril
  • [quote author=Cyril97 link=topic=11101.msg134260#msg134260 date=1301273153]
    I have a question concerning baptism.
    If you are a Catholic and baptised, would you get baptised agains if you become orthodox?
    God bless, Pray for me,
    Cyril



    Yes, thats correct.
  • I hope so!  :)
  • Cyril, thats correct.
  • [quote author=Cyril97 link=topic=11101.msg134260#msg134260 date=1301273153]
    I have a question concerning baptism.
    If you are a Catholic and baptised, would you get baptised agains if you become orthodox?
    God bless, Pray for me,
    Cyril

    actually, i have heard that it only needs to be done if the person was not baptized immersed in water.....because there are many churches lead by the Catholic church but not catholic in nature.
  • If the Catholic was baptized by immersion, then the baptism is not done again.
  • It depends on what the priest/bishop of the area decides. We are not in communion with them so technically we don't consider their baptisms valid...
  • I don't mean to make a contrivercy but a Christian is a Christian.
    I don't know but this seems a little much.
    Did H.H Pope Shenouda III or Pope Kyrillos VI say anything about it?
    God bless, Pray for me,
    Cyril
  • Once the Christology issue got resolved, things started to ease. So, the Catholic baptism was accepted if it was by immersion.
  • Cyril,

    What do you mean a Christian is a Christian?
  • A Christian is a Christian if the faith upon which one is Christian is the same. For example, Protestants' baptism like those of the Lutherans and the Baptists is not acceptable because the faith upon which the baptism is performed is not the same as that of the Orthodox.

  • I know that this may be wrong, christians.
    We say we are one body, one nature.
    I don't really see the need for baptism within the Christian churches.
    I know this may start some arguments but I don't intend for that.
    All I am trying to say is we "are" one body, one nature, one essence.
    God bless, Pray for me,
    Cyril
  • How are we one nature and one essence?

    And which churches are all one?

    Which Fathers of the Church are you basing your comments on?
  • cyril97,
    hi. it was God's will that Christians should all be united and share the same faith.
    but some groups have changed the faith that was handed down to us by the disciples and added wrong teachings.
    this is what we mean by 'heresy', it's a teaching that is so wrong that it is dangerous and we don't allow people to teach that in church. those people are given a change to change their mind, but if they don't, they are sent out of the church.

    this is 'excommunication'. saint paul did this in 1 corinthians, because a man said it was ok to live a sexually immoral life. the man eventually repented and stopped the wrong relationship and was received back into the church again in 2 corinthians.

    so, some people who consider that they are Christians, think it's not important to receive Holy Communion. of course it would be weird if they had communion with us as we receive Holy Communion believing it is the Body of Jesus Christ, and they would receive it thinking it's a tasty bit of bread and wishing they got a bigger bit.  :o
    so you see, it would not be appropriate to take the Holy Communion together.
    now, these people might have some correct beliefs about God mixed with their wrong teaching.
    they may say that Jesus is God, the Son of God who died and rose again so that people can be reconciled with God.
    so their beliefs are partly Christian, and it would be rude to turn around to them and say 'you are not Christians'.

    we also know that God works in the life of people to bring them closer to Him, and He certainly works outside of the boundaries of the orthodox church. but just because someone has an experience of God doesn't automatically make them a Christian with all the correct teaching. if someone confesses belief in God, we check out their beliefs (usually the priest does this), instruct them to correct any wrong teaching and then baptise them into the church.

    if they were baptised before into a Christian group that has partially wrong beliefs, that is not the same as being baptised into an orthodox church where we teach the things that the disciples and bishops handed down to us.
    so what happens is that the priests and bishops check out what church the person came from, and if the beliefs are very closely the same, the person may get chrismated (zeit mayroon) instead of baptised. usually the beliefs are too different, so the person is baptised and then chrismated afterwards. if you are born into the orthodox church, this happens when you are a baby, so that you can start taking Holy Communion straight away.

    rebaptism is not wrong, as some of the early Christians were baptised by john the baptist (a general jewish baptism of repentance) before being baptised again by the apostles (acts 19). if someone's church has some wrong teachings, then the baptism isn't quite right and they have it done again.

    if we didn't have these strict rules, people could come into our churches, say they were the same as us, take Holy Communion, lead sunday school etc. etc, and then start teaching people the wrong stuff (heresies) and people in church would get confused and pass the wrong teaching down to their children and grandchildren.

    there are lots of books and websites that give more teaching on this, but it's a lot of reading!
    if you look at the list of saints that we commemorate at the start of the liturgy (the absolution prayer which starts with ''abeedak ya Rab', 'your servants, Lord' and asks for absolution from the mouths of the saints and the patriarch (baba shenouda) and from the priest) this list includes the saints whose teaching we should read.

    there is a very early Christian document called the 'didache' or 'didaskalia' depending on which language is used, that's from 200AD or earlier that describes much of the practices of the early church.
    these practices (traditions) have been handed down to the priests and bishops of our church; this is how they know how to instruct us.

    hope this helps, it's a bit long!
    :)
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