Crisis of Basic Faith...

edited December 1969 in Faith Issues
I've always been a Christian.  I've always believed in God.  Why?  Because I've always been taught to believe in God?

This topic might be a bit more basic than many of the others that are discussed on this site, but recently I've been having a crisis of faith.

How do we really know that God exists? I've never personally seen a miracle (if that is indeed what we should really be looking for; probably not). How do we REALLY know that Christianity is true?  Why should I believe the Bible?  Why did God create the world in such a way that some people must go to Hell?  Why do some people die without ever even hearing about Jesus or God or whatever? 

I know there are many questions here.  I don't expect (but I do hope for) clear answers that will save and increase my faith in God and I don't expect that every question will be answered to my satisfaction.  But I'm losing my faith and I'm upset, so this is just an outpouring of my frustration, sadness, and confusion. 

Help if you can, and pray for me.

Comments

  • Dearest waterandspirit,

    I hope that this message finds you well in Christ, as we embark on this great season of Lent. It is precisely at times like these when we should look inwardly at ourselves and examine our strengths and our weaknesses, wishing to better our shortcomings through the strength of Christ. Many people will provide you with their perspectives on the issues that you have cited using various methods, and they will all be useful and helpful if used in the proper manner. I wish, though, to perhaps address an issue that underscores most of our lives, which may be more basic than even the questions that you have cited. I pray that, in doing so, you will find the answers more accessible to you in your own life through your own development of a relationship with Christ, founded on the faith that has been communicated to us by Him, to His apostles, to the defenders of the faith, the great Fathers of the Church who have elucidated our understanding.

    I want to speak with you concerning the topic of defending the faith. The term certainly has a ring to it; it conjures up some thoughts as to a soldier of some sort who is faced with an enemy and is called to defend that which he believes in, that which he is fighting for. In terms of defending the faith, this brings up a few points that I’m sure most of us have contemplated about at some point in our lives, and if we have not, at least now, we will be provided an opportunity to do so. What is this faith that I am defending? What is the manner in which I am defending it? Do I really care about my faith, and if I do, do I care to defend it at my own “cost,” according to the rubrics of the world?

    Let’s start from the top and address the issue of what the faith actually is. Most people, when asked what it is that their faith consists of, will automatically think of some of the things that they are taught in one of the instructive venues in the Church: in our own Church, this ranges from Friday night youth meetings, to Saturday night meetings after Vespers, to Sunday School following the liturgy. Some people who may think themselves to be more advanced along the road of the faith will imagine that the information contained in the reading of Orthodox spiritual books also comprises this faith. Indeed, this is certainly a facet of the faith, but is not the faith itself. God is not an idea; Orthodoxy is not an idea. People did not simply sit around and concoct, through logic and reason, a system by which laws and morals could be enacted, and an applicable mindset of why there must be a God. God is a Person; Orthodoxy is a living organism. It is not simply found in books or in lectures that we might be a part of. Don’t misunderstand me, all of these things are spiritually edifying for us, but edification implies something beyond mere knowledge about something. It is the full participation and willful act of applying those things that we have learned, the things which we acquire in these classes and in these books. It’s only when I actually begin to practice my faith that I can truly speak of faith. Otherwise, all I’m doing is lecturing something that virtually has no meaning to me, because it is not applicable to me, it is not something that I relate to, it is something that simply consists of information, almost like any other class you may take.
    As a result, because we are not living the things that we hear, whether it be in lectures or on Sunday in a sermon, or things that we might read in an Orthodox spiritual book, it becomes irrelevant to us. It has no significance to our lives. At this point, everything just begins to sound like one big jumble of canned words that are opened in random succession, a jumble that, if learned, might make you sound as though you’re close to the Church, but you may in fact be so far away that you’re only fooling yourself.

    I think the first thing that we must do is acknowledge our own weakness. We must simply come out and say that we don’t have faith, we don’t practice our faith, we don’t believe. We think, though, that in doing so, we will be so heavily criticized by the people in the Church that we might as well just save ourselves the headache and continue to attend Church meetings mindlessly, not absorbing anything, not putting any of it into actual practice, just going along with the motions.

    Let’s take a look at the disciple, Thomas, and see the example that he sets for us. Everyone knows the story, but I will repeat it here very briefly. After Christ’s resurrection, Christ appeared to the 10 disciples and imparted peace on them. When He spoke the words “Peace be unto you,” this actually had a dramatic effect on the disciples. It is not the same as when I utter the same words, my words don’t have the strength of Christ’s words. In the beginning of creation, when the Word, the Logos, said “Let there be light” immediately, there was light. If I go into a dark room and say the same words, nothing will happen. When he spoke these words to them, they actually attained a peace that was given to them by Christ, a true peace. Then, Thomas came later on, and they all told him that Christ had risen from the dead, and that He had appeared to them. Thomas presents his case openly, saying that he will not believe this to be true until he sees Christ with his own eyes and puts his fingers into the areas where Christ had been pierced. Now, we don’t know what happened in this coming week, it’s not recorded, but I can only imagine that all of the disciples began to pray earnestly for their brother, Thomas. Here was one of the twelve disciples, those who were closest to Christ, one who was to later go on and spread the faith, and he did not believe in the resurrection. The disciples here are, in actuality, the Church at the time; they were the ones who were to go on and spread the Word of God unto the nations. So they remained for the week and all prayed, and at the end of the week, Christ appeared to Thomas, who quickly exclaims “My Lord and my God!” Thomas, in his disbelief, brought his disbelief before the Church, and the Church prayed on his behalf, and he was brought into the understanding of the Truth.

    Why do I relate this story to you? Because, if we are to defend our faith, we must first acknowledge whether or not we have that faith; we must first be honest with ourselves. We say to ourselves, though, “if Christ appeared in front of me, I would believe.” I tell you that that is most probably not the case. We often criticize Thomas, but see how quickly his faith grew, not only because Christ appeared in front of him, but because he was ready to see this; he prepared himself for the Truth. The Church prayed on his behalf. He is of the good soil that is spoken of in the parable of the sower. But what kind of soil am I? Do the seeds just fall by the wayside, or do they grow with no depth, or are they choked by thorns? Where do I fit into this? If all Christ had to do was to appear in front of you for you to believe, He would do it easily and without hesitation. But we, ourselves, are not ready; we are not prepared; we are not of the good soil, and we must acknowledge this honestly. We must bring our shortcomings in front of the Church and ask for assistance.

    The only way that any talk of faith will make “sense,” the only way that we will progress in our faith, or give it any sort of meaning in our lives, is to live it. Try to live it. It is said that a person who comes and stands in Church is no more of a Christian than a person who stands in a garage is a car. How am I going to defend my faith if I don’t live it?

    We often think that the defense of our faith is meant for specific circumstances: when someone approaches us in college, for example, and questions our faith, or when we vote, or when someone asks us about our fasting. While these may be examples of the defense of our faith, it is not the true defense that we must give. We must defend our faith on a daily basis. We do this by actually living the faith. We do it in our actions, in actually applying what it is that we learn. I’m not just studying and memorizing what it is that’s presented in these lessons or in a sermon or in an Orthodox spiritual book: I’m living it. Christianity is not just memorization; it’s life in Christ. We don’t have to be miracle workers to show our faith, either.

    There was a priest in Communist Russia in the last century, his name was Fr. Arseny. In this time, any kind of religion was forbidden; Orthodox priests were put into special concentration camps. In this particular camp, people who were meant to die would be sent to live out the rest of their lives in the agony and torture of beatings and mistreatment. One day, a prisoner was outside working in the snow for a long period of time and he nearly collapsed. Coming in from the snow, his feet were tingling and showing the signs of onset of frostbite. Unable to move on his bed, he found someone come over and take his boots off. While this was happening, the man was very scared and sad. He felt like someone was going to steal his boots. Without them, he would surely freeze. After the man took off his boots, he began to massage the prisoners feet to bring the circulation back to them, and then left with the boots. The man passed out from exhaustion, knowing that someone just stole his boots. When we awoke the next day, he found his boots were dry and ready for him. He later discovered that it was Fr. Arseny who had done this; he took the man’s boots, and knowing that they must be dried, he took them to the stove. If they were left overnight unguarded, one of the prisoners would steal them; knowing this, Fr. Arseny stayed awake all night to guard the boots as they dried so that the prisoner would have his boots ready the next morning.

    There is no supernatural miracle in this story. There is no one who gains a limb back, or regains their sight, or rises from the dead. It is simply an act of love. Fr. Arseny was able to bring several of the prisoners and the guards to Orthodoxy; guards who stood for Communist Russia and atheism. This wasn’t because he lectured them, or read them books, or did any of that. It’s because he actually lived out the Christian love, and this attracted them to him. This is the defense of the faith. Amidst a world of atheism, this is the answer. It is not a debate between learned Ph.D’s who discuss the validity of the claim of God’s existence. It is a life.

    When I think of defending the faith, I must first acknowledge how strong or weak my faith is, or if it even exists. Know that, simply because we come to Church, it does not make us Christians. We must live the life. We learn the roadmap from these talks, from the books, from the sermons. Don’t allow Satan to fool you into thinking that these are not necessary; he will tell you that all you have to do is rely on your direct relationship with God, without acquiring this roadmap, a roadmap established by people who went before you and succeeded on their journey. In so doing, you will fall, and may not have the strength to rise from the fall. As I continue to learn about this faith, I must apply what it is that I learn every step of the way. Am I doing even the basic things that the Bible tells me? Not out of obligation, but out of earnest love for God, or out of a desire to want to actually know Him and grow closer to Him. If I think that Church is just a place that sets a number of rules that I must obey, then I will have no spirit to exercise my faith. If, though, I see it as a place that wishes to guide me in my life, to guide my in a most proper manner towards God, then I will take that first step, I will make that effort, and God will meet me and bring me along in my path. Try and you will see… but you first must try. Ask questions to trustworthy, more advanced people in the faith and read books to learn the roadmap, but then go out onto the road itself for yourself. We have a treasure map in our hands, and we don’t even want to go and seek out the treasure, even though it will make us wealthier than anything else ever could! When I practice my faith, it is then that I defend it against this world, against those who associate themselves with this world. This is the practical defense of the faith.

    Pray for my weaknesses as we embark on this spiritually edifying season of Lent,
    childoforthodoxy
  • Amazing post!

    I always wondered why our Lord didn't wait for Thomas before bestowing His peace to the disciples, but the way you told the story put a lot of things into perspective.

    Thank you!!
  • childoforthodoxy,

    I agree with TITL and thank you--you write very eloquently and powerfully about faith and how to live it.  It was a blessing to read and meditate upon some of the things you brought to mind.  But forgive me--my mind is still not at ease.  Your points are valid and true, but (unless I missed something) they didn't address the issue that is really bothering me at this point.

    Before we begin to live our faith, we must believe that God exists and that Christianity is "true."  That's how basic my problem is right now and how dire my situation.  I want to believe in God--but I keep wondering, "is it just because my parents taught me to?" or "is it just because I feel better about life thinking that there's a God?" 

    [quote author=waterandspirit link=topic=10853.msg131793#msg131793 date=1298952519]

    How do we really know that God exists? I've never personally seen a miracle (if that is indeed what we should really be looking for; probably not). How do we REALLY know that Christianity is true?  Why should I believe the Bible?  Why did God create the world in such a way that some people must go to Hell?  Why do some people die without ever even hearing about Jesus or God or whatever? 




    These original questions still are gnawing at me and I appreciate your first post and any further help you (or any others) might offer.  Thanks all, and pray for me.
  • great post childoforthodoxy!

    waterandspirit, I have a question for you.
    I'm not sure what exactly you are confused about. It is a historical fact that Jesus lived and was crucified (even atheists will admit this). His disciples believed that He was the Son of God as stated several times throughout the Bible. Why then would any of these disciples have preached His Name throughout the world even to the point of their own suffering and death if what they believed was not true? Why would they die for something that they did not believe in? You may bring up the argument that suicide bombers do the same, but this is simply untrue. Suicide bombers were not first hand eye witnesses to what they believe. But the Holy Apostles and Disciples WERE first had eye witnesses to the life, death, and Resurrection of Our Lord. If Our Lord did not die and Resurrect, then these disciples would have died for the sake of a lie! But Our Lord is ALIVE! And thats why the disciples believed so assuredly and their faith was indestructible! We have several letters in the Holy Bible from these same apostles and disciples who have seen the Risen Lord (St. Paul, St. Peter, St. John, etc..). 

    even if you do not believe me then believe the words of the Holy Bible at least, it IS the Word of God and just by reading His Words you will know God more, and He will reveal Himself to you. Pray and ask God to solidify your faith. And remember, to have faith "as a mustard seed" can move mountains!

    God Bless and please pray for me and my weakness
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  • Hey waterandspirit,
    I think that the more closer you get to God, the more you have a sronger faith in Him.
    Take the time and constantly spend time with Him daily, and i promise you will see His
    amazing works.
    My father of confession told me once that faith&trusting in God comes from experience :)
    && i think you should stop trying to figure out if God is real or not...the devil is giving you these thoughts. And sometimes it is diffifcult for our wordly brains to comprehend God. Just discard these thoughts & focus on God! I PROMISE you will see his works :)
    God be with you & Jesus loves youuuuuuuuuuuuu :)
  • This faith just makes sense. But so much of it rests on perspective, and until you experience something that truly changes yours, you will more than likely be convinced that yours is the correct one. I know this because i did the same thing.

    How do we really know that God exists? First we'll go back briefly to the story of Thomas, where Christ told him, "Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."  One of the things that's essential to having a solid faith is believing in yourself that He would not be telling you this unless there is some rational way to believe in God without physically seeing Him. For you this may be hard, but that is your goal. Believing in Him goes beyond just believing in His existence. It's about believing everything He says and trusting Him too.

    Atheists like to point out that if there were a God, there would be no pain, suffering, or evil in this world. When you look at it, however, you'll find that it's the other way around: if there were no God, there would be no goodness in the world. Likewise we understand the concept of Hell- God didn't create a place to torture all of the sinners and non-believers, but it is essentially giving the non-believers what they want- separation from Him. He will not be physically torturing them there, but living without the presence of God may be worse. As for why there is pain and suffering the world, we are instructed to reach out to them and pray for them. Pope Kyrillos VI had a quote that said something along the lines of "Praying moves the hands of God, which carry the universe."

    We believe in the Bible because it is historically reliable and because it makes sense. Prophecies that were made centuries before Christ's birth were fulfilled through Him The law laid down in the Bible isn't just something God made up; it's something He lived Himself while on earth. How can He ask us to humble ourselves when doing so is so difficult? Because Christ was able to do it in coming down as a human, suffering, being spit on, and dying, despite going against the natural order of the universe in humbling Himself so.

    Your question about the people who die before ever hearing God's word is addressed in Romans. I can supply the text, but maybe someone here can give you a better explanation of it than I can.

    "For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel." - Romans 2:12-16

    Do you have a father of confession that you feel comfortable talking to? If not, I highly suggest you find one. It really helps, and it's essential. Once you are past your journey for answers, you will see that all throughout, God was reaching out to you the whole time. I've always recommended the "Case for" series by Lee Strobel (The Case for Faith, The Case for Christ, The Case for a Creator). Very informative and written at a level which anyone can understand. Other than that, I'll be praying for you, just like you asked. God bless you.
  • Please, Waterandspirit: Read the Psalms. I had a big reply ready several times and was about to click "reply", but then my mind flashed to Psalm 46, and I remembered that I too am a spiritual infant, and need to be still. God tells us to be still and know that He is God. It is the most basic thing, but when we are tempted with doubts from the evil one, we can begin to doubt even that. To combat this, I have taken to praying a short personal prayer after the Thanksgiving Prayer and my morning Psalm reading, to the effect of "Lord, make me content to hear your word", because my own problem is more with hearing (and so following!) than with believing. Maybe you need your own regiment of prayer and quiet contemplation, so that you can find God again. Please talk to your spiritual father about this. I will pray for you.


  • I had a big reply ready several times and was about to click "reply", but then my mind flashed to Psalm 46

    NO! I feel like I just lost a great opportunity! No more doing that on here, please. It's not allowed. All great ideas MUST be posted.

    Thank you.
  • Why do some people die without ever even hearing about Jesus or God or whatever? 

    Your question about the people who die before ever hearing God's word is addressed in Romans. I can supply the text, but maybe someone here can give you a better explanation of it than I can.

    http://tasbeha.org/content/community/index.php/topic,10323.0.html
  • [quote author=TITL link=topic=10853.msg131825#msg131825 date=1299026888]

    I had a big reply ready several times and was about to click "reply", but then my mind flashed to Psalm 46

    NO! I feel like I just lost a great opportunity! No more doing that on here, please. It's not allowed. All great ideas MUST be posted.

    Thank you.


    You didn't, though. The Psalms say it all much better. The word of God is always much better. :)
  • If You want to know that God exists, go and see personally:

    And many of the Samaritans of that city believed in Him because of the word of the woman who testified, “He told me all that I ever did.” So when the Samaritans had come to Him, they urged Him to stay with them; and He stayed there two days.  And many more believed because of His own word. Then they said to the woman, “Now we believe, not because of what you said, for we ourselves have heard Him and we know that this is indeed the Christ,the Savior of the world.”

    We can not fruitfully debate with people that God exists (edit: This is based off my experience of talking with an atheist. The only thing that he said would prove to him God existed is if he appeared to him or if there was evidence.). You can never fully prove God through miracles or evidence, but rather miracles and evidence can only aid us to believe in God.

    When I was younger, I used to ask God for a miracle to strengthen my belief, unaware that I could sit down and talk with God in prayer, and personally "hear and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Savior of the world". We must pray: “Lord, I believe; help my unbelief!”. We must be still and know that He is God. It is that simple. It is not out of reading, rhetoric, or anything that will get us to believe and have a relationship with God. It is not good enough simply to believe in God and as St. James says: "You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble!".
  • Actually dzheremi, I never had any great ideas. I was speechless after ChildofOrthodoxy's post. All I'm good for on tasbeha.org is complimenting/refuting others' posts and asking annoying questions.

    They should make me moderator sometime. This is hard work.
  • Proofs for the existence of God are many.. here are some:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/IllustraMedia#g/p

    Irreducible complexity,
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreducible_complexity

    Still, there are stubborn people.

    GBU
  • Hello Waterandspirit,
                              As Christians our truth is different than those who aren't Christian. For instance, if I argued with an atheist, which I wounldn't anyway because I feel that what he has to prove is not the prove I need in my life, but if I did argue, I would base my arguement on the bases of relationship, not on the things he could show me.

                          An atheist could show me some old bones and say this is your ancesters, but really my ancesters I feel a greater connection with, believing they started with Adam and Eve than I do with the atheist offering. Then if you believe that GOD is the creator then you believe GOD is the Father of us all. And like any Father he wants his offspring to inherit or share in what he has achieved.

                      There was spirit before there was man. GOD had a problem with an angel; Satan, and he took other angels; devils with him when he was banished. So when man started, Satan has again done the same thing, seperating what was originally GOD'S family to something that is apart. You can understand this as a Father who has lost some of his family. Do the ones who want anything to do with the family deserve any part in the inheritance of what the Father created.

                        Your parents believe and are the ones who also want you to partake in this inheritance because just like any inheritance, it is pasted on. You can challange this belief but you are then denying a relationship and an inheritance. How do you know that it isn't a desire to try and seperate yourself from your parents as an attempt to make you own decisions in life and are using someone elses prove to do so? I believe your prove is best served in your understanding of your relationship with GOD.
                         
          In the old testament the jews were given GOD'S law, but this had proved inadequate as they strayed. This was the old covenent. Jesus Christ bought the new covenent which is love. Isn't this a better way of understanding a relationship with a Father?

                          Science is about rules or laws. So isn't science also inadequate in understanding the relationship we have with GOD.

                                          I Pray that you are drawn closer in relationship with GOD and parents Waterandspirit.
                 
                       
                         
  • [quote author=waterandspirit link=topic=10853.msg131793#msg131793 date=1298952519]
    I've always been a Christian.  I've always believed in God.  Why?  Because I've always been taught to believe in God?

    This topic might be a bit more basic than many of the others that are discussed on this site, but recently I've been having a crisis of faith.

    How do we really know that God exists? I've never personally seen a miracle (if that is indeed what we should really be looking for; probably not). How do we REALLY know that Christianity is true?  Why should I believe the Bible?  Why did God create the world in such a way that some people must go to Hell?  Why do some people die without ever even hearing about Jesus or God or whatever? 

    I know there are many questions here.  I don't expect (but I do hope for) clear answers that will save and increase my faith in God and I don't expect that every question will be answered to my satisfaction.  But I'm losing my faith and I'm upset, so this is just an outpouring of my frustration, sadness, and confusion. 

    Help if you can, and pray for me.


    I think everyone must ask them these questions.

    I don't believe that you, as a person, are finite. I don't believe that that you cease to exist after your body dies. I don't believe in death either.

    This was in fact common belief. Even the ancient Egyptians believed that there was life after death. They'd even bury their kings and princes with their worldly possessions in the hope that one day they would be a resurrection from their "sleep".

    When Saint mark preached Christianity in Egypt, no doubt what he said christianized the entire nation: they were already susceptible towards the inherrent or innate belief that there is life after death. So, when they heard that Christ had risen from the dead, this was greatly accepted. Such a belief was ALREADY in their mindset even before knowledge of Christ had dawned on them; but they were most likely living on the hope that there was resurrection of the dead but had not seen the fruits of this hope until knowledge of Christ's resurrection had been established.

    Atheists are different. They are not homogenous in their beliefs amongst themselves:

    There are some atheists who are "agnostic" - who say they don't believe but are open to suggestions.
    There are atheists who hate religion, and out of that hatred of religion end up hating God.
    There are atheists who do not hate religion, but believe in life after death, and they do believe in God, but that God has no name for them.

    So, be careful when you use the term atheist here. I think the majority i've seen seem to hate God personally AND religion for the world problems that religion has caused.
  • Sorry if my last post wasn't helpful to your predicament.

    I doubt that there is anything anyone can say that will help your faith.

    Its best just to pray.

    I trust that God loves me and His Commandments protect me.

  • may God guide you.
    the posts here have said what i was going to say.
    just read the Bible, pray and ask questions from friends who know you from church.

    pray from the agpeya and ask God to guide you to help you to understand what is written there.
    may He fill you with His peace and may you always want to know more about Him.
    our Lord is amazing, He cares for us even when no-one else does. He cares for us when we don't even care ourselves.
    :)
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