The Muslim Brotherhood and Coptic Christians

245

Comments

  • [quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=10626.msg129628#msg129628 date=1296814993]
    [quote author=Father Peter link=topic=10626.msg129625#msg129625 date=1296813843]
    All the messages and comments I am hearing from Egypt suggest that Copts generally are not participating in protests.



    I really don't think we can generalize. You really need to do a survey.

    Why not ask here if anyone HAS protested?

    I know already 4 Coptic Christians that were part of the Jan 25 protesters.



    Those were the peaceful protests. Now the protests are much more Islamic. You're going to tell me that Copts were out on friday during prayers? ya. sure.
  • [quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=10626.msg129661#msg129661 date=1296848171]
    [quote author=John_S2000 link=topic=10626.msg129658#msg129658 date=1296847870]
    There are almost none anymore but I assumed you spoke of a few you knew of. You must realize that the number of immediately anti Mubarak people now is a really very small percentage of the whole population. He said he will resign soon and so he will, everybody is wisely convinced of a safe transition period for power transfer. There are of course a few stubborn people left.

    GBU


    I'm reading news reports and media reports from different sources, and I have NO idea what the figures are. I really don't.

    I can't even generalize or make extrapolations.

    Personally, I don't think the youth are wise in what they are doing:

    "We're not leaving until Mubarak leaves". This is completely immature. So, I disagree with them.



    The youth announced that they're fine with Mubarak leaving in september and have left the square a couple of days ago. Its the MB and their suppporters that are left there.
  • Yes we heard that the MB and their affiliated groups took advantage of the movement's achievements and stole the places of the original protesters. These were scandalously exposed among Egyptians because of an Iranian speech addressed to them in Arabic last Friday:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0EdnMAAfF0

    GBU
  • For goodness sake!!!!

    CAN EVERYONE JUST GO AND READ ISAIAH CHAPTER 19???

    THE ENTIRE COPTIC ORTHODOX CHURCH IS DISCUSSING THIS!!!
    PLEASE!!!
  • Please stop cross-posting. We have been discussing this passage for the last week here on Tasbeha.
  • [quote author=Father Peter link=topic=10626.msg129830#msg129830 date=1296983642]
    Please stop cross-posting. We have been discussing this passage for the last week here on Tasbeha.


    Sorry I had no idea you had been discussing this before.

    I just got a message from a friend asking me to read it.

    I read it and was just overwhelmed.

    Apparently, what the monks have been saying is - that many muslims will convert to Christianity at the end of this.
  • [quote author=epiphania link=topic=10626.msg129731#msg129731 date=1296922768]
    [quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=10626.msg129628#msg129628 date=1296814993]
    [quote author=Father Peter link=topic=10626.msg129625#msg129625 date=1296813843]
    All the messages and comments I am hearing from Egypt suggest that Copts generally are not participating in protests.



    I really don't think we can generalize. You really need to do a survey.

    Why not ask here if anyone HAS protested?

    I know already 4 Coptic Christians that were part of the Jan 25 protesters.



    Those were the peaceful protests. Now the protests are much more Islamic. You're going to tell me that Copts were out on friday during prayers? ya. sure.


    I don't get the impression that the protests are becoming more Islamic. I get the feeling they are becoming increasingly secular

    http://bikyamasr.com/wordpress/?p=25892
  • Why? Why is Isaiah 19 more applicable to now than any of the other much more serious upheavals in Egyptian life over the centuries?
  • [quote author=Father Peter link=topic=10626.msg129837#msg129837 date=1297018183]
    Why? Why is Isaiah 19 more applicable to now than any of the other much more serious upheavals in Egyptian life over the centuries?


    I think people just want a sense of hope Father.
  • An interesting article about the MB and it's future in the new regime:

    The Muslim Brotherhood After Mubarak
    http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/67348/carrie-rosefsky-wickham/the-muslim-brotherhood-after-mubarak?page=show
  • Seriously, we should find hope in God each day, not in trying to make prophecies fit particular events.

    I grew up in a Protestant community that did this all the time. It is just not healthy. I have not found the Fathers to engage in such activities, even in the much worse circumstances in which they found themselves over past centuries.

    God is our hope. He will not fail us. The human imagination always will.
  • [quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=10626.msg129836#msg129836 date=1297018132]
    [quote author=epiphania link=topic=10626.msg129731#msg129731 date=1296922768]
    [quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=10626.msg129628#msg129628 date=1296814993]
    [quote author=Father Peter link=topic=10626.msg129625#msg129625 date=1296813843]
    All the messages and comments I am hearing from Egypt suggest that Copts generally are not participating in protests.



    I really don't think we can generalize. You really need to do a survey.

    Why not ask here if anyone HAS protested?

    I know already 4 Coptic Christians that were part of the Jan 25 protesters.



    Those were the peaceful protests. Now the protests are much more Islamic. You're going to tell me that Copts were out on friday during prayers? ya. sure.


    I don't get the impression that the protests are becoming more Islamic. I get the feeling they are becoming increasingly secular

    http://bikyamasr.com/wordpress/?p=25892



    Huh, they hold a mass in tahrir square?? How? A holy mass? Or am I misunderstanding..
  • [quote author=Father Peter link=topic=10626.msg129843#msg129843 date=1297021915]
    Seriously, we should find hope in God each day, not in trying to make prophecies fit particular events.

    I grew up in a Protestant community that did this all the time. It is just not healthy. I have not found the Fathers to engage in such activities, even in the much worse circumstances in which they found themselves over past centuries.

    God is our hope. He will not fail us. The human imagination always will.


    I agree with Fr Peter, only God is our hope.

    Gb u
  • [quote author=Father Peter link=topic=10626.msg129843#msg129843 date=1297021915]
    Seriously, we should find hope in God each day, not in trying to make prophecies fit particular events.

    I grew up in a Protestant community that did this all the time. It is just not healthy. I have not found the Fathers to engage in such activities, even in the much worse circumstances in which they found themselves over past centuries.

    God is our hope. He will not fail us. The human imagination always will.



    Thank you Father Peter for still being watchful... you speak the Truth.

    I'm saddened by how many people forget the Psalm 117 - "It is good to put your trust in the Lord then on Leaders"
    When we pray we should ask God let your will be done lord not mine . Dont ask God we want Mubarak or we dont want the Muslim brotherhood... What if its Gods will to put the M.B in power? (in order for the many Saints that will come about? (I know its scary but we don't know!)  Always pray for Gods will not what we want.
  • Ispower in Egypt only limited to Mubarak's regime and the Muslim Brothers???????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Egypt is a great country with great men.  Please be more rational.  Out of the 80 million people in Egypt, no one can be president but Mubarak?Please wake up from the sweet dreams of this corrupted government.  The ghost of the muslim brothers is like the fairy tales of the boogie man.  Do they exist?yes they do. however, this is the young and bright revolution.  this means that educated people are revolting. they are against corruption and the lies of the egyptian government.  Rest assured that the revolution will not allow anyone who is against a fair constitution to be president.  The revolution is a gift from God so we can re-write the egyptian constitution which will make the copts equal citizens to the muslims.  ARE YOU HAPPY BEING REGARDED AS 2ND CLASS CITIZENS IN EGYPT?ARE YOU HAPPY THAT EVERY PERMISSION TO BUILD A CHURCH MUST COME FROM THE PRESIDENT?ARE YOU HAPPY THAT YOU HAVE NO RIGHTS IN YOUR own COUNTRY?  Are you happy that we do not feel safe under Mubarak's regime?how many martyrs did we have over the past 30 yrs.  How many of our priests in egypt are behind bars b/c they are accused of baptizing a muslim person?  how many of our sisters and daughters have been kidnapped and forced to convert, marry a muslim or raped or killed or...or...or..?are you happy that no priest can walk on the streets on his feet without being cursed at or mocked?r u happy with all this?if you are happy with all this, then enjoy life under Mubarak but do not complain when they kill us on new year's eve and christmas. do not  complain when they arrest our priests.  the government is the culprit not the MB.enjoy mubarak.
  • [quote author=+marmar+ link=topic=10626.msg129844#msg129844 date=1297022030]
    [quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=10626.msg129836#msg129836 date=1297018132]
    [quote author=epiphania link=topic=10626.msg129731#msg129731 date=1296922768]
    [quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=10626.msg129628#msg129628 date=1296814993]
    [quote author=Father Peter link=topic=10626.msg129625#msg129625 date=1296813843]
    All the messages and comments I am hearing from Egypt suggest that Copts generally are not participating in protests.



    I really don't think we can generalize. You really need to do a survey.

    Why not ask here if anyone HAS protested?

    I know already 4 Coptic Christians that were part of the Jan 25 protesters.



    Those were the peaceful protests. Now the protests are much more Islamic. You're going to tell me that Copts were out on friday during prayers? ya. sure.


    I don't get the impression that the protests are becoming more Islamic. I get the feeling they are becoming increasingly secular

    http://bikyamasr.com/wordpress/?p=25892



    Huh, they hold a mass in tahrir square?? How? A holy mass? Or am I misunderstanding..



    What? hold a mass in the street? Have a holy offering in the street?! no way. They must be just singing songs or something. There's no way anyone would consent to have the body and blood of God in the street...right?
  • [quote author=epiphania link=topic=10626.msg129860#msg129860 date=1297028188]What? hold a mass in the street? Have a holy offering in the street?! no way. They must be just singing songs or something. There's no way anyone would consent to have the body and blood of God in the street...right?


    There is nothing wrong with holding a mass outside.

    Here is an excerpt from the Synexarium entry for Pope Peter El Gawly, the 109th Patriarch of the See of St. Mark:

    God had performed many wonders through the hands of Pope Peter VII the most famous of them is the incident of the Nile Inundation. One year the flood of the Nile was not enough to water people, land and animals. The masses were worried about famine, inflation and high prices if the land could not be cultivated. They went to the Governor of Egypt asking to order the clergy to pray and supplicate God almighty that He might bless the water of the Nile and increase the flood water to be able to water the land to bring forth a plenteous crop and to avoid a famine that might befall the people. Pope Peter VII called the bishops and the clergy and went with them to the banks of the river where he celebrated the Divine Liturgy and after the service he washed the Holy Service utensils with water from the river, then he threw the water and the blessed Kourbana (Blessed Bread) in the river. The waves of the river roared, the water was disturbed and flooded, the deacons in haste removed all the elements used in the celebration, fearing of drowning. This incident glorified the Patriarch position before the Basha the Governor who made him close to him, and honor the men of his nation, and increased their authority and grace.

    [http://www.copticchurch.net/synaxarium/7_28.html]
  • The Reuters video of what was described as a Mass didn't look anything like one.

    Does anyone have any actual facts?
  • [quote author=Father Peter link=topic=10626.msg129871#msg129871 date=1297030146]
    The Reuters video of what was described as a Mass didn't look anything like one.

    Does anyone have any actual facts?


    Is this the Reuters video you meant Father?

    If so, I agree it's probably not a mass, it just looks like some random bloke reading from a prayer book and getting people to respond with "amen."
  • [quote author=Father Peter link=topic=10626.msg129843#msg129843 date=1297021915]
    Seriously, we should find hope in God each day, not in trying to make prophecies fit particular events.

    I grew up in a Protestant community that did this all the time. It is just not healthy. I have not found the Fathers to engage in such activities, even in the much worse circumstances in which they found themselves over past centuries.

    God is our hope. He will not fail us. The human imagination always will.


    In regards to the Isaiah 19 issue I think Father Peter has spoken wise and true words.
  • [quote author=Father Peter link=topic=10626.msg129843#msg129843 date=1297021915]
    Seriously, we should find hope in God each day, not in trying to make prophecies fit particular events.

    I grew up in a Protestant community that did this all the time. It is just not healthy. I have not found the Fathers to engage in such activities, even in the much worse circumstances in which they found themselves over past centuries.

    God is our hope. He will not fail us. The human imagination always will.


    My apologies. I agree with what you are saying.
    Its true. I think everyone has been interpreting this and Jeremiah 46 in a very unobjective way.
    However, its extremely compelling still.

    Concerning the reuters video, what is your problem if Copts have joined the Tahrir Square Demonstrations?
  • Concerning the Reuters video, I didn't say anything about Copts participating. I just said that it didn't look at all like a liturgy was being performed. And the use of the word mass, which is not Orthodox, made me wonder if some Catholics were participating.
  • [quote author=Father Peter link=topic=10626.msg129879#msg129879 date=1297034857]
    Concerning the Reuters video, I didn't say anything about Copts participating. I just said that it didn't look at all like a liturgy was being performed. And the use of the word mass, which is not Orthodox, made me wonder if some Catholics were participating.



    It looked like a guy was reading from the agpeya. So maybe it was just the first hour or something. Why people called it mass beats me. which I think is great, because I'm against the idea of the holy sacraments being paraded around in the streets. It just seems undignified.
  • [quote author=Father Peter link=topic=10626.msg129879#msg129879 date=1297034857]
    Concerning the Reuters video, I didn't say anything about Copts participating. I just said that it didn't look at all like a liturgy was being performed. And the use of the word mass, which is not Orthodox, made me wonder if some Catholics were participating.


    Well, it was definately Coptic Orthodox. I know that because Michael Mounir was participating in it.

    But I agree - it didnt seem like a liturgy. Maybe they did vespers prayers. If that WAS the case. If Christians DID pray openly on that day, then that was the first time in Islamic Egypt that this has ever happened. EVER!!

  • Did you see a priest, I looked but couldn't.
  • [quote author=Father Peter link=topic=10626.msg129921#msg129921 date=1297067497]
    Did you see a priest, I looked but couldn't.


    I saw them reading from the Agpeya - (The Psalms), I'll ask my cousins who were there.

    But if this did happen, it will open the door further towards religious tolerance. That's important for us.

  • Has anyone prayed for the Mubarak and the Muslim Brotherhood?

    Is our job as Christians and ambassadors of the Gospel to argue who would make a better leader, Mubarak or the Muslim Brotherhood? Or is it to pray for those who persecute us?

    Did not the Fathers, in their spiritual wisdom, set for us a litany called, "Litany for the Ruler", which asks God to soften the ruler's heart? Do we see any Patrisitic father advising, rallying, "politicizing", or telling his followers to pick one ruler over another?

    Read the History of the Patriarchs of Egypt or "Coptic Papacy" Vol 2 by Mark Swanson. All the persecutions, murders and abuses suffered by the Copts and the Coptic patriarch today are nothing compare to what has happened to all Copts from the time of Pope Benjamin to the Ottoman Empire. And through it all, did the Copts perish? No. Because they trusted in God and God only; and their prayers for their rulers were effective.

    Let us take this time to stop fighting a secular war and focus on our spiritual war and repent. It's more important for us to fight for our eternal life and that citizenship of a celestial city rather than our citizenship in a "kingdom" that perishes.
    George
  • [quote author=Remnkemi link=topic=10626.msg129939#msg129939 date=1297092975]
    Has anyone prayed for the Mubarak and the Muslim Brotherhood?

    Is our job as Christians and ambassadors of the Gospel to argue who would make a better leader, Mubarak or the Muslim Brotherhood? Or is it to pray for those who persecute us?

    Did not the Fathers, in their spiritual wisdom, set for us a litany called, "Litany for the Ruler", which asks God to soften the ruler's heart? Do we see any Patrisitic father advising, rallying, "politicizing", or telling his followers to pick one ruler over another?

    Read the History of the Patriarchs of Egypt or "Coptic Papacy" Vol 2 by Mark Swanson. All the persecutions, murders and abuses suffered by the Copts and the Coptic patriarch today are nothing compare to what has happened to all Copts from the time of Pope Benjamin to the Ottoman Empire. And through it all, did the Copts perish? No. Because they trusted in God and God only; and their prayers for their rulers were effective.

    Let us take this time to stop fighting a secular war and focus on our spiritual war and repent. It's more important for us to fight for our eternal life and that citizenship of a celestial city rather than our citizenship in a "kingdom" that perishes.
    George


    Why are we always persecuted for?

    Let's just ask Mubarak how many Christians he expects to die under his rule and how many Copts can we expect to die per year with the Muslim Brotherhood?

    Maybe we can get a good deal under the MB??? Maybe they'll offer us 50 dead for the 1st year (that's capped), and then when they get into full swing, we could go up to 100 dead bodies every 2 years??

    What is this?

    Politics is about policies. We want a policies that result in secular governments. I'm fed up of us being so scared to ask for our rights. Its getting ridiculous.

    Why don't we pray that God hardens our hearts and gives us the strength to stand up for our rights??? WHY NOT?? Maybe we should be praying that God gives us the courage to stand up and say "ENOUGH!!!!!!"

    Why don't we ask for that? Maybe the Church should create a litany for the cowards and the persecuted who prefer to rest in their comfort zone than to scream out from the social injustices that plagues them!!!!!!!

    Im fed up!
  • We should not call those who face persecution with peace and patience cowards!

    Do you really think that the present situation is ANYTHING like it has been in the past? Do you not remember why the Coptic calendar dates from 284 AD? Do you not remember why we use the abbreviation A.M. meaning 'Year of the Martyrs'?

    Those who face persecution are not cowards. How many tens and hundreds of thousands were martyred under Diocletian and the other pagan Emperors. How many tens of thousands were martyred under the Chalcedonians. How many tens and hundreds of thousands under the Muslims.

    Each life lost is a matter of great sadness, but the situation is nothing at all compared with how it has been. At the time of Patriarch Simon the Tanner the WHOLE Orthodox community faced extermination. Mubarak has done nothing comparable.
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