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Quarter Tone

ZoxsasiZoxsasi
edited December 1969 in Hymns Discussion
Is this a myth or is it real?

Do we actually sing in Quarter tones?

Do Coptic hymns follow the Do, re, me, fa, so, la, te, Do scale or not?

Thanks
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Comments

  • jydeaconjydeacon
    I'm not sure if we stick to that strictly speaking but I can see how it may work out that way. I don't think we really follow any one tone as our hymns are extremely elaborate, especially the ones with melisma.
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    Out of my general knowledge, I think this is true. That's why most of our Coptic hymns cannot be playing on instruments that easily as on a piano for example since it only have 1 full or half tones; white is full 1, black is half.......I don't understand what I just said but this is what I was taught. :-)
  • mmatt95mmatt95
    For most coptic hymns u'll need a mi-quarter tone and sometimes also a si-quarter tone. These you will not find on a regular piano, since the black keys are half tones, not quarters. U'll need an oriental keyboard or instruments that are not limited to half tones (violin, lute, nay etc).
    The majority of melisma can be played on an oriental instrument. Its real music!!!!!!!!!! You should hear the flute hymns by fr Antonios Zikry or the hymns played by David Ensemble. Everything can be played like this!!!!!!
  • geomike
    Speaking of fr Antonious Zikry here he is, he is awesome.



    Enjoy and God Bless
  • coptic_deacon
    The quarter tone is essential to coptic hymns. it originated in the east and was used in ancient egypt. it the spread across the entire east (all the arab places). although most of our hymns use quarter tones, there are some that don't and some that are a mix. for example, the section of the liturgy "Those, O Lord, whose souls you have taken..." can be fully said without quarter tones, but priests don't may much attention and use it anyway. Another example is the hymn of al-el korban. most of it doesn't use quarter tones, only about 7-8% of it. A third example that definitely doesn't have quarter tones is the coptic introduction and conclusion of the commentary/exposition in passion week i.e. Khen efran entitrias. Many of the new deacons and moallemeen haven't studied music and so they don't differentiate between the tones correctly, but there are quite a few hymns out there that can be played on standard western instruments.
  • ilovesaintmarkilovesaintmark
    CopticDeaon,

    I'm curious as to the contrast in your zeal and knowledge in Coptic and yet you use the Latin for the Signing of the Holy Trinity? 
  • coptic_deacon
    it is merely a hope in christian unity. but thanks for noticing.  :)
  • TITLTITL
    I have a question for you coptic_deacon:

    The third "Agios" (Agios Athanatos) in the hymn Agios O Theos, what note is that? Is it half or quarter?
    I can't play that key on the piano.
  • coptic_deacon
    actually is it all full tones, no half no quarter (F,G,A). but to answer your question it can be played on a normal keyboard
  • TITLTITL
    I can play all the notes to Agios using full tones, but the third Agios sounds off pitch. Maybe because I always sing it using an extra hazzat, or it might be because I started at the wrong key :p

    I'll figure it out. Thanks!
  • coptic_deacon
    Do you use Mac or PC?
  • mmatt95mmatt95
    Agios sounds better on "maqaam bayati", an oriental scale with a quarter tone on the mi/e and a si-mol / bes.
  • TITLTITL
    [quote author=coptic_deacon link=topic=9016.msg122748#msg122748 date=1290679356]
    Do you use Mac or PC?


    Yamaha keyboard? I'm confused.

    Actually I'm more confused by Hos Erof's post.
  • mmatt95mmatt95
    Look at this

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7b/Arabic-scale_bayati.png

    The second note (the mi or e) has this B thing in front of it, but its not a regular one. Normally it means you lower half a tone, but when it looks like the one in the picture it means a quarter tone. In arabic it would be called "mi sika".
    The scale you see in the picture is called "bayati" scale, it's one of the frequently used scales in hymns and some of the (traditional) spiritual songs.
  • coptic_deacon
    i thought agios was maqam sika?
  • mmatt95mmatt95
    Perhaps both maqams could work, bayati worked fine for me ;D
  • TITLTITL
    Quick question: Can the Aspasmos Adam be played using full tones (on a non-oriental keyboard)?
  • TITLTITL
    Is the oriental option in keyboards the pizzicato type style? So, if I choose to play with a violin style, would that be considered oriental (aka Coptic)? Would the tones turn from full to half and half to quarter?
  • mmatt95mmatt95
    Oriental has nothing to do with what kind of instrument you use on a keyboard. On an oriental keyboard there's specific buttons with which you can change the tones to become quarter tones.

    Aspasmos Adam needs a quarter tone, but could be played without, it will just miss the extra touch to get the exact tune, but this goes for a lot of hymns.
  • TITLTITL
    Oh, what key do you start at for Aspasmos Adam? C? It sounds weird.
  • mmatt95mmatt95
    U'd start on the F and you need a E-quarter tone and a G# (G + half tone, so the black one right after the g).
    If you dont have a E-quarter tone, you can use the D# instead, it will give a more accurate tone than the regulair E.
  • TITLTITL
    I started at F, then went to D# then C but it sounds off pitch. Could it also work if you started at E?
  • TITLTITL
    A kind member, who would like to stay anonymous on the forum, pointed this out to me. I think this will be of benefit to others as well:

    I may be out of place presenting this, but this is how I understand the notes that are to be chanted in this particular hymn. The mode in which it is chanted is a mode called Huzzam, a variant of Sikah, which in our case, we will suggest starts on E#. This is a special quarter tone used in the mode known as Sikah and Rast, and is not the same quarter tone as that which is used in Bayati (if you were playing Bayati on D, for example, the E# would be a bit flatter). The notes of the mode are:

    E# F G Ab B C D E#.

    It should be noted that Ab and B are not truly Ab and B... the tetrachord Hijaz begins on G in this case, and Hijaz is properly presented with Ab as a slightly higher note, though not a quarter tone, and B as a slightly lower note, though again, not a quarter tone. As such, there are essentially three notes within the proper mode that cannot be played on Western instruments.

    There also exists a variation within this mode in which one will present E# followed by Eb; I only mention this because it makes a prominent appearance in this particular hymn.

    I will not type up the entirety of the hymn in terms of notes, but will get you started here:

    E# G F E# Eb F E#.... Eb F... E# F G E# F E# D C... D E# D C D E# F G F E#.. Eb E#... and so on.
  • John_S2000John_S2000
    TITL,

    I notice you are talented in music.
    What instrument do you play best on the keyboard?

    If you have good midi in and out options, there is the free program called Scala. When used as a live relay interface configuration between the midi In and OUT (to simplify, keyboard > PC midi processing > sound out) it can give you the result you want in the proper setup of scale/keyboard keys layout.

    In fact it is not a toy program and I cannot explain it to you; but at least recommend you try it, read the help and turtorials and experiment. After taking a big good time of repeated usage you should reach the best way to produce the quarter tone scale and more you want.

    Scala homepage:
    http://www.huygens-fokker.org/scala/index.html

    These were tried by me for PC (see homepage above for Macs or Linux).

    Scala latest version (check the updates regularly) is Scala v.2.28x:
    http://www.huygens-fokker.org/software/Scala_Setup.exe
    Install this required runtime module first,
    the Gtk+ Windows Runtime Environment v2.12.10 or higher:
    http://downloads.sourceforge.net/gtk-win/gtk2-runtime-2.22.0-2010-10-21-ash.exe?download
    Scales file (read the info for where to put these thousands of scales):
    http://www.huygens-fokker.org/docs/scales.zip
    Assistance during the installations is strongly recommended.

    In case you're wondering I haven't yet mastered this very powerful program.
    It takes a lot of time and preferably good midi/sound hardware. If you find it will consume too much of your time please be wise to leave it alone for later on with more free time.

    Hope you have better luck than me using the program!

    GBU
  • TITLTITL
    Wow! Thanks John_S2000!! I actually play a piano keyboard, an org.. this: http://www.musiciansbuy.com/mmMBCOM/images/yamaha_ypg235.jpg

    That's what I meant the entire time, but I guess everyone misinterpreted :)

    I love trying new things though. I'm going to experiment a bit with the programs you linked to. I don't really have much of a talent in music, but hopefully I'll learn something new with these programs! :)

    Thank you so much again!!

    God bless your hard work and service.
  • John_S2000John_S2000
    You're welcome TITL. I hope you are not spending all your time playing music though.

    Computers with decent sound cards could be used for playing/recording the music, as notes and/or producing sound. You have the advantage of the USB cable accessory to connect your YPG235 to the computer in order to send to it the notes you play on the keyboard as midi data, to be processed or recorded in a music program then sent back to your keyboard or played via the sound card/speakers or an external amplifier, etc. (together these are called DAW for digital audio workstation). That's why coptic_deacon asked you what kind of computer do you use  :)

    I have seen your YPG235 it's nice and I think it has midi IN/OUT via USB (at least midi OUT to the computer). You need to check the manual to see how to connect it and make it work. You can have six tracks to record your music on the Y. and many styles, may be there is an oriental style provided with tuning built-in.

    Btw midi is not the sound itself but all the notes of all instrument tracks and other instructions (like volume, reverb, chorus) to produce the final sound of music (so midi is sheet music notes etc. in a standard digital format).

    If the midi works then later on the computer may help you add more options and more flexibility to your very nice YPG235, plus also record your singing (using the mic). So, again what kind of computer do you use?

    GBU
  • TITLTITL
    Both Windows Vista and Mac
  • John_S2000John_S2000
    You mean a PC (w Vista) and a Mac (2 computers) or an Intel Mac with working compatible Vista ?

    For Mac someone else with more experience in music on Macs would be better.
    For a PC w Vista may be I can help a bit more later.

    GBU
  • TITLTITL
    I won't tell you which one I have. I don't like people troubling themselves for me.

    I haven't had the chance to try the programs yet.

    I told you I don't have any talent in music. It's going to take me a while to 1. google all the terms you used 2. figure out what the program is asking 3. play music well on the computer.

    This process will take 3-5 years.
  • geomike
    lol TITL, always crack me up.


    And JOHNNY! IT's been a long time no see buddy.
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