God bless your efforts and your enthusiasm. I believe, at least personally speaking if everybody starts with themselves the language will be in a much better place. So pray for me as well please
hmmm.....i need to read Ophadece looooong post (actually not too long).....but i won't really reply to this again....i don't like joining an argument that i know i'll lose!!!
Dear ilovesaintmark, Thought we already mentioned that in a previous thread... I did start praying for you long ago when we had exchanges in that previous one, but it is the first time that I exchange postings with Godlovesme, and that is why I asked her to pray for me. I am joking by the way... of course you are in my prayers (at least from today), and you too pray for me a lot... btw, please be smart enough and use your knowledge in Coptic (which I am sure you have a lot of)... my wife's name is in my profile avatar. Dear minagir, Why do you assume you will be losing the argument if you post? It is freedom of expression, and you know me very well: I love exchanging ideas with other people... SO I AM FOREWARNING YOU ON ADDING ANY OTHER LETTER... I AM COMPLETELY FED UP NOW... hehe... joking again. The fact of the matter is I was astounded and really stunned to have heard your opinion; I thought you had a very different one, and as I mentioned before being someone I consider as a tutor in terms of rites and hymns, I was surprised (in a bad way) about what you wrote about Coptic language... especially, and this is very important, that I understand you went to America from one of the Sa'idic cities in Egypt (El Minya?)... I hope I am not too far off this time like last time... Now going by Zoxasi's suggestions: [coptic]nofri ehoou bon (ouon) niben[/coptic] - have a nice day every one [coptic]]ouws `n]ermelety emasw qen paiehoou vai e;be ouontyi `nouqotqet qen pisomt `nehoou myt'i] `nte paiabot vai[/coptic] - I want to study a lot this day (today) as I have an exam on Tuesday (third day) 19 of this month [coptic]e;be vai ]ouws `nsini erwten tyrou `ntou`slyl e;byt emasw [/coptic]- Therefore (for this - because of this) I would like to ask you all to pray for me a lot [coptic]oujai qen `P[C[/coptic]
I appreciate the comments, but I live a very reserved life now. I do not want to get involved. My little service and work is all done in quiet with no fanfare or even physical presence.
[quote author=ophadece link=topic=9825.msg120446#msg120446 date=1286616196] Dear minagir, Why do you assume you will be losing the argument if you post? It is freedom of expression, and you know me very well: I love exchanging ideas with other people... SO I AM FOREWARNING YOU ON ADDING ANY OTHER LETTER... I AM COMPLETELY FED UP NOW... hehe... joking again.
Well that's exactly the reason; i know you very well (well enough ya3ny to say the truth) that you are zealous enough about the language. I am in too in a way but just have extra thoughts to it.....which as i said, considering reality. Look: it took the arabs the time atleast 4 centuries to make us take arabic in and use it instead of coptic; that was with force (the sword) and sometimes the cutting of tongue whenever anyone spoke arabic. we even though, they have not done a very good job. WHY?! because here we are in the 21 century and coptic is still going (THANK GOD). now you wanna change egypt to be back to coptic, without force, with an Islamic government and for 20%-30% of the population being Christians; we won't be alive by that time.
When i said the language is dead i meant there isn't a usage for it among the people of egypt or any other country. yes it's there academically and religiously (by us)....but that's not enough for us to bring it back on the surface. we don't even have the majority vote to do so......so i don't understand how will this happen.
The fact of the matter is I was astounded and really stunned to have heard your opinion; I thought you had a very different one, and as I mentioned before being someone I consider as a tutor in terms of rites and hymns, I was surprised (in a bad way) about what you wrote about Coptic language... especially, and this is very important, that I understand you went to America from one of the Sa'idic cities in Egypt (El Minya?)... I hope I am not too far off this time like last time... [coptic]oujai qen `P[C[/coptic]
wohoooo......i am not from el-menia, or the se'eed.....not even close to that.....i am all the way from ba7ari--El-Mansoura.....ppl think i am a se3edi for having a hard-headed.
My question is this: how much has the language changed over the years? What did it sound like before the Muslim invasion? Because it's pretty clear that the Coptic that we read during the liturgies is read with an Arabic accent.
What I would like is a mass project to revive it, to the point where we can understand every word without looking at the translation across the page. Maybe it can start with those two Coptic high schools.
Dear Mina, Thank you for your opinion that's very practical. Look I was talking on scientific terms but I never alluded to reviving Coptic at the scale of Egypt as a whole. But truthfully I think we as Christians ought to use it much more at the very least amongst ourselves like in churches for example. Dear George_Mina_Awad, The Coptic language belongs to the family of languages including Arabic and Hebrew, and that's why you feel it is closer to the former. With the recent distortion of the language however it appeared to take on a more westernised flavour but that is wrong. Of course the language evolved through the centuries and the five dialects diverged to some extent. Hope this helps
[quote author=Sinner_91 link=topic=9825.msg120453#msg120453 date=1286630762] Coptic was forbidden when the islam came to egypt and who spoke in coptic the cut his tounge
Are there any official history books that explain this? Are there any references for this?
Are there any references for the fact that currently in Egypt, IT IS forbidden to teach Coptic as a language in Schools???!!
[quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=9825.msg120459#msg120459 date=1286647776] [quote author=Sinner_91 link=topic=9825.msg120453#msg120453 date=1286630762] Coptic was forbidden when the islam came to egypt and who spoke in coptic the cut his tounge
Are there any official history books that explain this? Are there any references for this?
Are there any references for the fact that currently in Egypt, IT IS forbidden to teach Coptic as a language in Schools???!!
Where can I get information on this???
the late Anba Youannis of gharpeia have a book about the History of the Church....it's in arabic but i am not sure if it is translated yet.
[quote author=George_Mina_Awad link=topic=9825.msg120454#msg120454 date=1286638904] What I would like is a mass project to revive it, to the point where we can understand every word without looking at the translation across the page. Maybe it can start with those two Coptic high schools.
There are Coptic schools all over the world! There are three in Sydney and two in Melbourne I believe, and many more in other countries. There's even one in Jerusalem! You're right - Coptic schools might well have a very important role in reviving (or preserving, should I say Ophadece :D) the Coptic language. My school did a small play in Coptic last year (of course nobody except the kids acting in it understood the words) and I heard one of the Melbourne schools did a similar thing.
I think what's next on the horizon should be an international meeting to set some serious revival goals. I think we should start examining other historical revivals like those of Hebrew and Cornish to see how a successful revival can be carried out. Perhaps we should start looking at some of those organisations which fund and help organise language revival? We could certainly use some outside help.
Yes[coptic] `P[C_nai_nan[/coptic], The unfortunate thing actually is that those schools adopted the teaching of the flawed Greco-Bohairic accent, as people who left Egypt probably didn't have much knowledge of what authentic Coptic is. That only came to light recently with the mass media communications, internet, and what have you. What is really annoying however, is that people are too stubborn now to accept the "right" teaching, as money has already been spent, maybe even their system of education has been set up that way, and that is it. They disregard Oxford doctorate degrees, researches by renowned Coptologists all over the world, because that was it. Although I don't recall in medicine any studies that took for granted the findings of any other (i.e. scientific research). Many of them would be conducted to either refute the former, or prove them right. But with the Coptic language, well... it doesn't work like that. At the end of the day, my opinion is, you want to learn Coptic the Greco-Bohairic way, fine, I learn it the authentic way which is fine with me, others learn it the Sa'idic way. The goal is to all speak and hopefully understand each other, and every one will come to realise the mistakes of the Greco-Bohairic (even though I doubt people living outside Egypt will do). Yes, I know my argument is not a very correct one, but because I don't hope to be too strict about learning the Coptic language in general. [coptic]oujai qen `P[C[/coptic]
[quote author=ophadece link=topic=9825.msg120485#msg120485 date=1286695304] Yes[coptic] `P[C_nai_nan[/coptic], The unfortunate thing actually is that those schools adopted the teaching of the flawed Greco-Bohairic accent, as people who left Egypt probably didn't have much knowledge of what authentic Coptic is. That only came to light recently with the mass media communications, internet, and what have you. What is really annoying however, is that people are too stubborn now to accept the "right" teaching, as money has already been spent, maybe even their system of education has been set up that way, and that is it. They disregard Oxford doctorate degrees, researches by renowned Coptologists all over the world, because that was it. Although I don't recall in medicine any studies that took for granted the findings of any other (i.e. scientific research). Many of them would be conducted to either refute the former, or prove them right. But with the Coptic language, well... it doesn't work like that. At the end of the day, my opinion is, you want to learn Coptic the Greco-Bohairic way, fine, I learn it the authentic way which is fine with me, others learn it the Sa'idic way. The goal is to all speak and hopefully understand each other, and every one will come to realise the mistakes of the Greco-Bohairic (even though I doubt people living outside Egypt will do). Yes, I know my argument is not a very correct one, but because I don't hope to be too strict about learning the Coptic language in general. [coptic]oujai qen `P[C[/coptic]
oh yeah. i forgot to take that as a factor in whas i said before to. :-)
Comments
How come I was not included in this group hug? How come no one is praying for me? I feel left out.
I accept your words, but unless you are Ophadece's wife, I will await his prayerful affirmations. [joke]
The prayers of the saints are mightier than mine, and I pray with them for you and yours.
Thought we already mentioned that in a previous thread... I did start praying for you long ago when we had exchanges in that previous one, but it is the first time that I exchange postings with Godlovesme, and that is why I asked her to pray for me. I am joking by the way... of course you are in my prayers (at least from today), and you too pray for me a lot... btw, please be smart enough and use your knowledge in Coptic (which I am sure you have a lot of)... my wife's name is in my profile avatar.
Dear minagir,
Why do you assume you will be losing the argument if you post? It is freedom of expression, and you know me very well: I love exchanging ideas with other people... SO I AM FOREWARNING YOU ON ADDING ANY OTHER LETTER... I AM COMPLETELY FED UP NOW... hehe... joking again.
The fact of the matter is I was astounded and really stunned to have heard your opinion; I thought you had a very different one, and as I mentioned before being someone I consider as a tutor in terms of rites and hymns, I was surprised (in a bad way) about what you wrote about Coptic language... especially, and this is very important, that I understand you went to America from one of the Sa'idic cities in Egypt (El Minya?)... I hope I am not too far off this time like last time...
Now going by Zoxasi's suggestions:
[coptic]nofri ehoou bon (ouon) niben[/coptic] - have a nice day every one
[coptic]]ouws `n]ermelety emasw qen paiehoou vai e;be ouontyi `nouqotqet qen pisomt `nehoou myt'i] `nte paiabot vai[/coptic] - I want to study a lot this day (today) as I have an exam on Tuesday (third day) 19 of this month
[coptic]e;be vai ]ouws `nsini erwten tyrou `ntou`slyl e;byt emasw [/coptic]- Therefore (for this - because of this) I would like to ask you all to pray for me a lot
[coptic]oujai qen `P[C[/coptic]
I appreciate the comments, but I live a very reserved life now. I do not want to get involved. My little service and work is all done in quiet with no fanfare or even physical presence.
[coptic]oujai qen `P[C[/coptic]
Dear minagir,
Why do you assume you will be losing the argument if you post? It is freedom of expression, and you know me very well: I love exchanging ideas with other people... SO I AM FOREWARNING YOU ON ADDING ANY OTHER LETTER... I AM COMPLETELY FED UP NOW... hehe... joking again.
Well that's exactly the reason; i know you very well (well enough ya3ny to say the truth) that you are zealous enough about the language. I am in too in a way but just have extra thoughts to it.....which as i said, considering reality.
Look: it took the arabs the time atleast 4 centuries to make us take arabic in and use it instead of coptic; that was with force (the sword) and sometimes the cutting of tongue whenever anyone spoke arabic. we even though, they have not done a very good job. WHY?! because here we are in the 21 century and coptic is still going (THANK GOD). now you wanna change egypt to be back to coptic, without force, with an Islamic government and for 20%-30% of the population being Christians; we won't be alive by that time.
When i said the language is dead i meant there isn't a usage for it among the people of egypt or any other country. yes it's there academically and religiously (by us)....but that's not enough for us to bring it back on the surface. we don't even have the majority vote to do so......so i don't understand how will this happen. wohoooo......i am not from el-menia, or the se'eed.....not even close to that.....i am all the way from ba7ari--El-Mansoura.....ppl think i am a se3edi for having a hard-headed.
What I would like is a mass project to revive it, to the point where we can understand every word without looking at the translation across the page. Maybe it can start with those two Coptic high schools.
Thank you for your opinion that's very practical. Look I was talking on scientific terms but I never alluded to reviving Coptic at the scale of Egypt as a whole. But truthfully I think we as Christians ought to use it much more at the very least amongst ourselves like in churches for example.
Dear George_Mina_Awad,
The Coptic language belongs to the family of languages including Arabic and Hebrew, and that's why you feel it is closer to the former. With the recent distortion of the language however it appeared to take on a more westernised flavour but that is wrong. Of course the language evolved through the centuries and the five dialects diverged to some extent. Hope this helps
Coptic was forbidden when the islam came to egypt and who spoke in coptic the cut his tounge
Are there any official history books that explain this? Are there any references for this?
Are there any references for the fact that currently in Egypt, IT IS forbidden to teach Coptic as a language in Schools???!!
Where can I get information on this???
[quote author=Sinner_91 link=topic=9825.msg120453#msg120453 date=1286630762]
Coptic was forbidden when the islam came to egypt and who spoke in coptic the cut his tounge
Are there any official history books that explain this? Are there any references for this?
Are there any references for the fact that currently in Egypt, IT IS forbidden to teach Coptic as a language in Schools???!!
Where can I get information on this???
the late Anba Youannis of gharpeia have a book about the History of the Church....it's in arabic but i am not sure if it is translated yet.
What I would like is a mass project to revive it, to the point where we can understand every word without looking at the translation across the page. Maybe it can start with those two Coptic high schools.
There are Coptic schools all over the world! There are three in Sydney and two in Melbourne I believe, and many more in other countries. There's even one in Jerusalem! You're right - Coptic schools might well have a very important role in reviving (or preserving, should I say Ophadece :D) the Coptic language. My school did a small play in Coptic last year (of course nobody except the kids acting in it understood the words) and I heard one of the Melbourne schools did a similar thing.
I think what's next on the horizon should be an international meeting to set some serious revival goals. I think we should start examining other historical revivals like those of Hebrew and Cornish to see how a successful revival can be carried out. Perhaps we should start looking at some of those organisations which fund and help organise language revival? We could certainly use some outside help.
God bless
The unfortunate thing actually is that those schools adopted the teaching of the flawed Greco-Bohairic accent, as people who left Egypt probably didn't have much knowledge of what authentic Coptic is. That only came to light recently with the mass media communications, internet, and what have you. What is really annoying however, is that people are too stubborn now to accept the "right" teaching, as money has already been spent, maybe even their system of education has been set up that way, and that is it. They disregard Oxford doctorate degrees, researches by renowned Coptologists all over the world, because that was it. Although I don't recall in medicine any studies that took for granted the findings of any other (i.e. scientific research). Many of them would be conducted to either refute the former, or prove them right. But with the Coptic language, well... it doesn't work like that.
At the end of the day, my opinion is, you want to learn Coptic the Greco-Bohairic way, fine, I learn it the authentic way which is fine with me, others learn it the Sa'idic way. The goal is to all speak and hopefully understand each other, and every one will come to realise the mistakes of the Greco-Bohairic (even though I doubt people living outside Egypt will do). Yes, I know my argument is not a very correct one, but because I don't hope to be too strict about learning the Coptic language in general.
[coptic]oujai qen `P[C[/coptic]
Yes[coptic] `P[C_nai_nan[/coptic],
The unfortunate thing actually is that those schools adopted the teaching of the flawed Greco-Bohairic accent, as people who left Egypt probably didn't have much knowledge of what authentic Coptic is. That only came to light recently with the mass media communications, internet, and what have you. What is really annoying however, is that people are too stubborn now to accept the "right" teaching, as money has already been spent, maybe even their system of education has been set up that way, and that is it. They disregard Oxford doctorate degrees, researches by renowned Coptologists all over the world, because that was it. Although I don't recall in medicine any studies that took for granted the findings of any other (i.e. scientific research). Many of them would be conducted to either refute the former, or prove them right. But with the Coptic language, well... it doesn't work like that.
At the end of the day, my opinion is, you want to learn Coptic the Greco-Bohairic way, fine, I learn it the authentic way which is fine with me, others learn it the Sa'idic way. The goal is to all speak and hopefully understand each other, and every one will come to realise the mistakes of the Greco-Bohairic (even though I doubt people living outside Egypt will do). Yes, I know my argument is not a very correct one, but because I don't hope to be too strict about learning the Coptic language in general.
[coptic]oujai qen `P[C[/coptic]
oh yeah. i forgot to take that as a factor in whas i said before to. :-)