Those who were not baptised

Comments

• kefleyohannes

  May 2010

  Let me correct you we believe salvation is through the correct Faith in God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit and Works demonstrating this correct faith...
  
  and also baptism is more correctly termed as a rebirth in Christ which fits what the Lord said in Matthew 3:7 "Marvel not that I said unto thee, ye must be born again"
  
  I say this so that you don't confuse others, the resurrection in Christ is another matter we are through baptism dead to the former works and born anew in Christ Our Lord....
  
  First of all Saint Mary, the Theotokos, if you think of baptism it is a few things, Death with Christ, rebirth in Christ...Recieving the Holy Spirit
  
  Luke 1:35 "The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the highest shall overshadow thee"
  
  Our Mother recieved the Holy Spirit no doubt, she felt his death at the foot of the cross and she lived her whole life with God even before the annunciation as she was raised in the temple...
  
  Is there a more sure baptism then that which Our Mother recieved?
  
  also the Bible tells you the answer to your question
  
  Rom 4:9  Is this blessing, then, for the circumcision only, or in the same way for those who have not circumcision? for we say that the faith of Abraham was put to his account as righteousness.
  Rom 4:10  How, then, was it judged? when he had circumcision, or when he had it not? Not when he had it, but when he did not have it:
  Rom 4:11  And he was given the sign of circumcision as a witness of the faith which he had before he underwent circumcision: so that he might be the father of all those who have faith, though they have not circumcision, and so that righteousness might be put to their account;
  Rom 4:12  And the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who keep to the way of that faith which our father Abraham had before he underwent circumcision.
  Rom 4:13  For God's word, that the earth would be his heritage, was given to Abraham, not through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
  
  did not saint Mariam believe through Faith, that she Would Bear the Lord?
  
  also concerning all others in the OT.....you see our father Abraham was blessed before circumcision, circumcision was but an outward sign of the inward faith he had, so your question about the women in the old testament has no weight, because St Paul shows us that
  
  -if they had faith and followed the law (knowingly or unknowingly) then it was by faith that they were blessed
  -if they had faith and did not follow the law then it was a false faith
  -if they had no faith and followed the law will be judged by the law and the law justifies none
  
  Rom 4:16  For this reason it is of faith, so that it may be through grace; and so that the word of God may be certain to all the seed; not only to that which is of the law, but to that which is of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all
  
  and
  
  Rom 2:12  All those who have done wrong without the law will get destruction without the law: and those who have done wrong under the law will have their punishment by the law;
  Rom 2:13  For it is not the hearers of the law who will be judged as having righteousness before God, but only the doers:
  Rom 2:14  For when the Gentiles without the law have a natural desire to do the things in the law, they are a law to themselves;
  Rom 2:15  Because the work of the law is seen in their hearts, their sense of right and wrong giving witness to it, while their minds are at one time judging them and at another giving them approval
  
  So the Lord went into hades to deliver those who by faith, wished to follow him......during their lives on earth, with or without the law
  
  If one is not baptised in the NT it is very serious because we are recipients of the Lord who came and instituted his sacrament for us and if we refuse it then we reject faith in what he has given us.
• Zoxsasi

  May 2010

  Hello there!
  
  I would just like to start by saying that, although I appreciate any answers that add to my knowledge, your post, whether you are aware or not, seems a bit accusatory. You said "let me correct you". How can you correct a person who is asking a question. I am not making a statement, but seeking to fill the gaps in my knowledge. Then you say: "So you don't confuse others" - how can a question confuse others?
  
  Please refrain from such accusatory language. You are judging me as if I am making a statement, or if I have a particular agenda.
  
  I am fully aware that we are saved by Grace, but these Graces are mediated through the Holy Church Sacraments.
  
  What I don't understand though, and what your response did not seem soo clear to me are following issues; so allow me to re-word the questions so perhaps they are clearer:
  
  a) If baptism is essential for salvation, what was the situation before Christ? What about the righteous people who were not baptised?
  
  * If circumcision was a symbol of baptism, how important IS a symbolism in its efficacy?
  * What about women who were not circumcised??
  
  Your response concerning Saint mary was what I assumed also, but I wanted to ask to be sure. It would be good to provide patristical reference to this, otherwise it appears to be only opinion. The problem is that it seems that baptism (by immersing in water) was not necessary - I mean, even the saints we say that they were baptised in their blood (when they were martyred). So does that mean that water baptism is not essential?
  
  Again, this is a question. NOT A COMMENT or STATEMENT OF OPINION!!! If you respond with another accusation, I will complain to the admins. You create a threatening environment in which anyone will feel intimidated in asking anything to learn or advance in their Orthodox faith. I am completely Orthodox in my faith and I submit to the Orthodox teachings. I just don't know everything!!!!
  
  
  b) We say that baptism is the dying and resurrecting with Christ, in which we, as St Paul says, wish to find a way to unite with Him so as to crucify/bury the old man and wear a new creation (in Christ).
  
  * But what about those who were not baptised?
  * We say that the thief on the cross was in fact baptised (he died and resurrected with Christ) - literally!!  So does that mean that water baptism does not need to take place? Its not essential?? or is it essential?
  * What about the Saints of the Church who were not baptised. I still don't understand their situation. Was Saint Mary baptised or not?
  
  I am afraid that your references in using Romans Chapter 4 went over my head. Perhaps it is my ignorance, or I'm missing something, but I cannot see how Romans 4 answers this. If it IS the answer to my questions, could you kindly add some explanation - WITHOUT accusing me of anything.
  
  Thanks