I agree with you Mabsoota, instead of procecuting othere churches we should be loving and knowlegable. God bless us all, and forgive us all, we the sinners. Please pray for me
[quote author=Servant of Jesus Christ link=topic=9077.msg112996#msg112996 date=1270756174] I agree with you Mabsoota, instead of procecuting othere churches we should be loving and knowlegable. God bless us all, and forgive us all, we the sinners. Please pray for me
We need to educate. We need to educate ourselves, and them. That's all.
How on earth did you and Fr. Peter end up as Orthodox? What was it that convinced you?
There was an Anglican man known as Timothy Ware, who discovered the Orthodox Church whilst passing by a russian orthodox church in London. He went on to study Theology at Oxford, and become known as Fr. Kallistos Ware. I think now he's a metropolitan. He's probably considered one of the greatest contemporary theologians of all.
Why did he choose Orthodoxy? What made him leave the Anglican? If we were to read what he read, and follow his path in life, would we also learn that Orthodoxy is the best value for your salvation?
Secondly, how do we go about educating die hard evangelicals to at LEAST understand that we receive salvation THROUGH the sacraments??!!!
I think what is needed is a forum where we can talk with them, post links, and discuss these issues.
I read a book titled Apostolic Succession a while ago. The book laid a great argument for the need of apostolic succession but concludes by acknowledging that we are not omniscient and don’t know who will be saved and who will not. What a great thing it is to acknowledge once limitation! The author put it very simply “we know where the church is but we do not know where the church is not.
This argument was to some degree advanced by St. Augustine when he stated (I am paraphrasing): that there are some in the church that won’t be saved and there are some outside the church that will be saved. So, the church that we can clearly identify and the church that is known only to God will become one church in heaven.
In regard to sacraments, our orthodox church teaches that sacraments are a means of administrating the invisible grace of God through visible matters. For example, the invisible grace of salivation is administered through visible water. If we come to understand sacraments as such we no longer look at them as items on a to-do-list that once we put a check mark next to them we will be accepted to heaven. There are some church fathers who ask the question “how can we limit the way the grace of God is transmitted to only seven mediums?”
With all said, I strongly believe in the need of the church and the sacraments for salivation. It is for God to make the exceptions (such as the right hand thief who was saved without baptism with water) and for us to follow the norm. The norm is to be part of the church and participate in her sacraments.
Finally, let me conclude by a quote from St Cyprian of Carthage "No one can have God as Father who does not have the Church as Mother". I am sure this view of church is not contradictory to St. Augustine’s but can be harmonized in some way.
Earlier, I did not have the links.His Holiness Pope Shenouda's synoptic lectures on salvation are very useful and may enlighten those still in doubt about the eternal salvific benefits that flow from the one and true holy church and its sacraments.
i couldn't help myself last night, i stayed up late because i watched again the documentary with father lazarus el antony (see the discussion in 'random issues' for the link).
the anglican priest here had some views even most protestants would consider incorrect (quote 'i am not sure if we create demons from our own imagination or if they are real'). see how father lazarus replies in the documentary. i expect he also discussed some theology with him (not shown in the documentary) but what he definitely did was to send that anglican priest to meditate in the cave, gave him a copy of the agpeya (you can recognise all the prayers he prays even though they only show small parts of them) and the Bible and then sit in the other cave praying for him for 3 weeks. it is clear father lazarus loves him and is praying for his salvation.
wow. even though this documentary was made by a tv company that is strongly secular and sometimes even hostile to Christianity, it is clear that this anglican priest was profoundly affected by his experience, and came out of it with a less doubting, less liberal attitude. i think this documentary is a very good example of how we can approach those who have erroneous beliefs. as i said in the other thread, i don't know if this man now understands the fullness of God, but this was clearly 1 step in his spiritual journey, i pray he completes it.
Comments
I agree with you Mabsoota, instead of procecuting othere churches we should be loving and knowlegable. God bless us all, and forgive us all, we the sinners. Please pray for me
We need to educate. We need to educate ourselves, and them. That's all.
How on earth did you and Fr. Peter end up as Orthodox? What was it that convinced you?
There was an Anglican man known as Timothy Ware, who discovered the Orthodox Church whilst passing by a russian orthodox church in London. He went on to study Theology at Oxford, and become known as Fr. Kallistos Ware. I think now he's a metropolitan. He's probably considered one of the greatest contemporary theologians of all.
Why did he choose Orthodoxy? What made him leave the Anglican? If we were to read what he read, and follow his path in life, would we also learn that Orthodoxy is the best value for your salvation?
Secondly, how do we go about educating die hard evangelicals to at LEAST understand that we receive salvation THROUGH the sacraments??!!!
I think what is needed is a forum where we can talk with them, post links, and discuss these issues.
I read a book titled Apostolic Succession a while ago. The book laid a great argument for the need of apostolic succession but concludes by acknowledging that we are not omniscient and don’t know who will be saved and who will not. What a great thing it is to acknowledge once limitation! The author put it very simply “we know where the church is but we do not know where the church is not.
This argument was to some degree advanced by St. Augustine when he stated (I am paraphrasing): that there are some in the church that won’t be saved and there are some outside the church that will be saved. So, the church that we can clearly identify and the church that is known only to God will become one church in heaven.
In regard to sacraments, our orthodox church teaches that sacraments are a means of administrating the invisible grace of God through visible matters. For example, the invisible grace of salivation is administered through visible water. If we come to understand sacraments as such we no longer look at them as items on a to-do-list that once we put a check mark next to them we will be accepted to heaven. There are some church fathers who ask the question “how can we limit the way the grace of God is transmitted to only seven mediums?”
With all said, I strongly believe in the need of the church and the sacraments for salivation. It is for God to make the exceptions (such as the right hand thief who was saved without baptism with water) and for us to follow the norm. The norm is to be part of the church and participate in her sacraments.
Finally, let me conclude by a quote from St Cyprian of Carthage "No one can have God as Father who does not have the Church as Mother". I am sure this view of church is not contradictory to St. Augustine’s but can be harmonized in some way.
Christ is Risen!!!
Theophilus
Earlier, I did not have the links.His Holiness Pope Shenouda's synoptic lectures on salvation are very useful and may enlighten those still in doubt about the eternal salvific benefits that flow from the one and true holy church and its sacraments.
Lecture XII: The Salvation of The Thief
Lecture II: The Scope of Salvation
the anglican priest here had some views even most protestants would consider incorrect (quote 'i am not sure if we create demons from our own imagination or if they are real'). see how father lazarus replies in the documentary. i expect he also discussed some theology with him (not shown in the documentary) but what he definitely did was to send that anglican priest to meditate in the cave, gave him a copy of the agpeya (you can recognise all the prayers he prays even though they only show small parts of them) and the Bible and then sit in the other cave praying for him for 3 weeks. it is clear father lazarus loves him and is praying for his salvation.
wow. even though this documentary was made by a tv company that is strongly secular and sometimes even hostile to Christianity, it is clear that this anglican priest was profoundly affected by his experience, and came out of it with a less doubting, less liberal attitude. i think this documentary is a very good example of how we can approach those who have erroneous beliefs. as i said in the other thread, i don't know if this man now understands the fullness of God, but this was clearly 1 step in his spiritual journey, i pray he completes it.