Hi,
Why do we not allow the use of musical instruments during the vespers or the Holy Liturgy?
Surely, King David's Psalm says:
Praise him with the sounding of the trumpet,
praise him with the harp and lyre,
4 praise him with tambourine and dancing,
praise him with the strings and flute,
5 praise him with the clash of cymbals,
praise him with resounding cymbals.
can someone tell me why we are only stuck using the triangle and cymbals???
Comments
This is not to say that musical instruments cannot be used as an offering to God in other appropriate circumstances. But our human voice is the greatest and most personal of instruments, created by God for us to worship him, and so in our Church worship the Orthodox have always tended to promote choral worship without musical accompaniment.
In my old evangelical community this was the same practice, and we did not have any musical accompaniment.
Father Peter
And then I can easily argue that we can also become victims of solo singing also.
Which is not far from the truth in many Churches.
You are quite right about the dangers of solo singing as well. I particularly like the Indian Orthodox practice of a choir leading the Church in the hymns, but all the congregation joining in all the hymns. This prevents that sort of oneupmanship.
I also think that we should not imagine the trumpets which David the Prophet and King mentions as doing jazz type solos. They would have been blown like rams horns. And likewise the harps would have been used much more in a rhythmic sense, even like the way cymbals are used in the Coptic Orthodox tradition. In the time of the Kingdom and the Temple there were not bands doing guitar solos. :-)
The Church has determined that musical instruments tend to stand in the way of spiritual worship, and that the best means of the congregation worshipping God is with the people joining in unaccompanied praise using their voices, with a choir of humble deacons who lead the congregation in their congregational worship without dominating it.
Unfortunately whenever we are given an opportunity we are tempted to put ourselves forward, whether playing instruments, leading hymns, even playing cymbals. Humble worship leads us to listen to others and join our voices with them rather than seeking to have our voice, or our playing of cymbals or triangles take the lead.
Father Peter
cymbals& triangles are musical intruments
Exactly, but what if someone is talented in another instrument that has strings, or another percussion instrument ?
I'm just curious, but why are these instruments not allowed. Why do we have cymbals and triangle only? because as you correctly say: they are in fact musical instruments.
Furthermore, if it is for the reason Fr. Peter mentioned - i,e. that we don't want to get distracted by an "orchestra" - then why do we have the cymbals for? Sometimes, they are so loud and so boring that it is a distraction.
On other occassions, depending on who plays the cymbals, it actually is like playing the tabla (the drums) - its like in Egypt, we call it "Tabla wa noss" - I mean, it is literally on the verge of real musical percussion.
So what is so unholy about the Violin?
What is so problematic about the trumpet?
Why then did King David say to praise God with stringed instruments if we do not have them in our Church?
Also, the argument about the choir becoming an "orchestra" doesn't hold - because our Church uses stringed instruments for singing in prayer meetings, for festivals etc.. so when we pray (outside vespers and the Holy liturgy) we use the organ, guitar, violin etc. Now, if this was in ANYWAY a distraction to prayer - the Church would be against it even for a simple hymn singing in Church.
Another thing about the instruments in the OT, the musical worship was only done in the Temple, not in synagogues,
so when the apostles went to preach they'd use the rites of the "synagogues" and pray without musical instruments. This tradition was passed down to the early church. This is from a sermon by Fr Mattias Nasr!
Moreover, as Fr Peter said, we offer the sacrifice of praise by using our own voice!
Outside liturgical prayers, musical instruments are fine. I know a lot of people who play instruments along with songs or hymns and they are amazing with retreats or spiritual gatherings :D
I also think that we should not imagine the trumpets which David the Prophet and King mentions as doing jazz type solos. They would have been blown like rams horns. And likewise the harps would have been used much more in a rhythmic sense, even like the way cymbals are used in the Coptic Orthodox tradition. In the time of the Kingdom and the Temple there were not bands doing guitar solos. :-)
Dear Fr Peter,
Some Ethiopian Orthodox hymns ,songs of priase use stringed instruments such us the harp,lyre,as well as the flute accompanied by wonderful and captivating voices. I do not understand what they say, but I enjoy the hymns as if I understand them. I'd like to attach some links where such instruments are used and would like to hear your view if they are in the wrong and in contradiction to King David's purpose of using the instruments the way they are shown in the clips?
these songs all seem to be being sung and played outside the context of the Liturgy. There is no reason why this should not be so, and I am sure that outside of Liturgical contexts there are many Orthodox youth from many contexts who might accompany singing in the context of fellowship with a variety of instruments. I myself play the guitar badly. My son plays guitar, drums and piano.
But the Fathers seem to indicate that the liturgical worship of the Church should be unaccompanied. It would be good if someone could compile some references. I do think that in the liturgy in Jerusalem which Euthemia attended in 380 was without any instruments, nor can I recall any early reference to instruments used in worship.
In the EO church the use of an organ became acceptable in some places, and this was also introduced in the West where musical instruments became common.
I guess that if someone is playing the cymbals in such a way to drown out everyone's singing then they are not playing them in the right way or for the right reasons, just as if someone insists in booming out the hymns in a very loud voice. We are to be a symphony of praise, which means a coming together in worship.
Cymbals and Triangles are not musical instruments, they are percussion and can only keep a rhythm not produce a melody. I have experience of worshipping in communities which only use the human voice - both Protestant and Orthodox, as well as those which have used an organ, and a full band. I find that the more instruments are allowed the more the music takes over to the detriment of the human voice. But it is also the case that choirs in some of the communities I have worshipped with have chosen such difficult pieces to show their skill that no-one else can join in, which again defeats their service.
I hope someone posts some references to the Fathers on this subject. It is good to have questions, but in our Orthodox Tradition we begin by turning to the Fathers and seeking their understanding and teaching.
Father Peter
I hope that this message finds you well in the midst of our fast.
Allow me to humbly present to you the sayings of the Fathers of the Church, which will address the use of instruments as a whole as well as the use of cymbals (see the first quotation for St. Clement of Alexandria below).
St. John Chrysostom: "David formerly sang songs, also today we sing hymns. He had a lyre with lifeless strings, the church has a lyre with living strings. Our tongues are the strings of the lyre with a different tone indeed but much more in accordance with piety. Here there is no need for the cithara, or for stretched strings, or for the plectrum, or for art, or for any instrument; but, if you like, you may yourself become a cithara, mortifying the members of the flesh and making a full harmony of mind and body. For when the flesh no longer lusts against the Spirit, but has submitted to its orders and has been led at length into the best and most admirable path, then will you create a spiritual melody." (Chrysostom, 347-407, Exposition of Psalms 41, (381-398 A.D.) Source Readings in Music History, ed. O. Strunk, W. W. Norton and Co.: New York, 1950, pg. 70.)
St. Clement of Alexandria: ""Leave the pipe to the shepherd, the flute to the men who are in fear of gods and intent on their idol worshipping. Such musical instruments must be excluded from our wingless feasts, for they are more suited for beasts and for the class of men that is least capable of reason than for men. The Spirit, to purify the divine liturgy from any such unrestrained revelry chants: 'Praise Him with sound of trumpet," for, in fact, at the sound of the trumpet the dead will rise again; praise Him with harp,' for the tongue is a harp of the Lord; 'and with the lute, praise Him.' understanding the mouth as a lute moved by the Spirit as the lute is by the plectrum; 'praise Him with timbrel and choir,' that is, the Church awaiting the resurrection of the body in the flesh which is its echo; 'praise Him with strings and organ,' calling our bodies an organ and its sinews strings, for from them the body derives its Coordinated movement, and when touched by the Spirit, gives forth human sounds; 'praise Him on high-sounding cymbals,' which mean the tongue of the mouth which with the movement of the lips, produces words. Then to all mankind He calls out, 'Let every spirit praise the Lord,' because He rules over every spirit He has made. In reality, man is an instrument arc for peace, but these other things, if anyone concerns himself overmuch with them, become instruments of conflict, for inflame the passions. The Etruscans, for example, use the trumpet for war; the Arcadians, the horn; the Sicels, the flute; the Cretans, the lyre; the Lacedemonians, the pipe; the Thracians, the bugle; the Egyptians, the drum; and the Arabs, the cymbal. But as for us, we make use of one instrument alone: only the Word of peace by whom we a homage to God, no longer with ancient harp or trumpet or drum or flute which those trained for war employ." (Clement of Alexandria, 190AD The instructor, Fathers of the church, p. 130)"
St. Clement of Alexandria: "Moreover, King David the harpist, whom we mentioned just above, urged us toward the truth and away from idols. So far was he from singing the praises of daemons that they were put to flight by him with the true music; and when Saul was Possessed, David healed him merely by playing the harp. The Lord fashioned man a beautiful, breathing instrument, after His own image and assuredly He Himself is an all-harmonious instrument of God, melodious and holy, the wisdom that is above this world, the heavenly Word." … "He who sprang from David and yet was before him, the Word of God, scorned those lifeless instruments of lyre and cithara. By the power of the Holy Spirit He arranged in harmonious order this great world, yes, and the little world of man too, body and soul together; and on this many-voiced instruments of the universe He makes music to God, and sings to the human instrument. "For thou art my harp and my pipe and my temple"(Clement of Alexandria, 185AD, Readings p. 62)
Eusebius: "Of old at the time those of the circumcision were worshiping with symbols and types it was not inappropriate to send up hymns to God with the psalterion and cithara and to do this on Sabbath days... We render our hymn with a living psalterion and a living cithara with spiritual songs. The unison voices of Christians would be more acceptable to God than any musical instrument. Accordingly in all the churches of God, united in soul and attitude, with one mind and in agreement of faith and piety we send up a unison melody in the words of the Psalms." (commentary on Psalms 91:2-3)
Blessed Augustine (writing about a visit to Alexandria that he had at the time when it was under St. Athanasius' see): "Musical instruments were not used. The pipe, tabret, and harp here associate so intimately with the sensual heathen cults, as well as with the wild revelries and shameless performances of the degenerate theater and circus, it is easy to understand the prejudices against their use in the worship." (Augustine 354 A.D.)
Pray for me,
childoforthodoxy
Cymbals and triangel are merely instruments to keep the rhythm. They don't make actual tunes.
Another thing about the instruments in the OT, the musical worship was only done in the Temple, not in synagogues,
so when the apostles went to preach they'd use the rites of the "synagogues" and pray without musical instruments. This tradition was passed down to the early church. This is from a sermon by Fr Mattias Nasr!
Moreover, as Fr Peter said, we offer the sacrifice of praise by using our own voice!
Outside liturgical prayers, musical instruments are fine. I know a lot of people who play instruments along with songs or hymns and they are amazing with retreats or spiritual gatherings :D
Its really great to know that even we are being Orthodox about how we sing.
That's a great answer Matt. Your response has definitely convinced me.
So, now tell me:
Given what you've all just said: What or How do you all feel about the cymbals and triangle being played in such a way that makes it into a tabla (drum beat). What I mean to say is - in the Middle East, people play the tabla for events such as belly dancing, and the technique is called "tabla wa noss".
How do u feel about deacons playing the cymbals in such a way also??
There is not one part of our life which is Orthodox and another part which is secular or private. Everything we do is part of this one life we have, and we are called to live it in an Orthodox manner.
If someone is playing the cymbals in an inappropriate manner then that should be dealt with, just as if someone is showing off in any other way during the liturgy. It is for the senior deacons and the priests to manage such situations.
Father Peter
QT, any beat you play on the cymbal can be fashioned to as if it were the tabla, its the beat we are used to, there isn't a beat where it sounds like the tabla and one where it doesn't. At least that i've heard
Yes, according to what has been discussed, the cymbal's role is NOT to sound like a musical instrument. It is there only to set the pace of the hymn.. not to act as an accompaniment.
When you play it like the Tabla, it becomes more like a step away from adding other musical instruments.
If it distracts people, then this is not correct use. If it's used to show off, then it's not correct use.
I think enough has been said about cymbals-abuse, by more than one member ;)
This issue has caused a major division in the ethiopian orthodox tewahdo church .we use some traditional instruments including the begena which was used by david .No modern instrument is allowed in the church now .There are churches who use modern (western )instruments but they have been excommunicated from the mother church .
church fathers claim that people using modern instruments have hidden issues and accuse them of being reformists .i have seen some of the churches using piano to accompany the liturgy and it felt worldly and so lively it took the whole somber atmosphere out of the liturgy .
this is what i think, i think the cymbals came in to give us strength in our voices and to give us a beat kind of like that ticker thing in piano lessons. I dont know which pope said this but he said that the def should not be louder than the deacons or congregations voice. the def and triangle are there to give us rhythm and strength. for example when i play the def i know my voice is alot more on tune and rhythm and they give the hymns this touch that no other instrument can do not even auto tune! lol