Thanks everyone. There are many things I could have said but I was trying to get HIM to realize them, hopefully the listeners did. If anyone is interested in apologetics email me [email protected]
[quote author=Ioannes link=topic=9491.msg148364#msg148364 date=1322886771] Thanks everyone. There are many things I could have said but I was trying to get HIM to realize them, hopefully the listeners did. If anyone is interested in apologetics email me [email protected]
Ioannes! You're back! ;D Can you please post more videos like this ;D. But on YouTube so we don't have to sit through ads every 5 min. And don't call them names, just present rational arguments. Thanks ;)
His appeals to Job were totally ironic, his family was from the same region that Abram was eventually called from. The book of Genesis also paints the faithful in each generation as the biological line of the seed of Adam as opposed to Cain. The faithful children of God didn't just apper out of no where, with the notable exception of Melchizedek who prefigures Christ.
LOL that was awesome! that guy got upset towards the end lol. his way of coping with a loss is to say that YOU are the one who disagrees with him. its pathetic. lol Good job!
[quote author=Ioannes link=topic=9491.msg148364#msg148364 date=1322886771] Thanks everyone. There are many things I could have said but I was trying to get HIM to realize them, hopefully the listeners did. If anyone is interested in apologetics email me [email protected]
I'm interested!! How can you help me? :)
[quote author=servant33 link=topic=9491.msg148366#msg148366 date=1322889802] [quote author=Ioannes link=topic=9491.msg148364#msg148364 date=1322886771] Thanks everyone. There are many things I could have said but I was trying to get HIM to realize them, hopefully the listeners did. If anyone is interested in apologetics email me [email protected]
Ioannes! You're back! ;D Can you please post more videos like this ;D. But on YouTube so we don't have to sit through ads every 5 min. And don't call them names, just present rational arguments. Thanks ;)
Yup, please. I agree that you should post these on youtube. Also, more would be great as it also teaches us how to approach these people and what we can say. Also, I can't watch the video! I've reached the first four minutes and due to bad buffering it would bring an advertisement and then end the video. :( Please post on youtube. Thanks!
I got it to work, and I also agree with the others that you shouldn't be name calling them. However, I did learn so much from your arguments. I now know how to approach them using your arguments. But also remember to be loving and kind towards them.
"Brethren, if a man is overtaken in any trespass, you who are spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness, considering yourself lest you also be tempted." (Ga 6:1)
Once you use the "H" word (heretic), they lose all interest in your Orthodox Church. This applies even if they truly are heretics.
If there was an encouraging draw to Orthodoxy at the end, maybe a heartfelt feeling of sadness for the other person's error, then maybe the other person would see the error of their ways and really rethink their religion.
If there is no love in your rhetoric, then it is just bashing. Insults don't win souls for the Eternal Kingdom, the love of God does.
You win if you show them the true love of God and His Orthodox Church, and not by insulting them into despair. No one wants to be called "pathetic." God probably sees him as the lost sheep, who He would die for if needed.
"No matter how just your words may be, you ruin everything when you speak with anger." (St. John Chrysostom)
Speak the truth, firmly, intelligently and factually, but always "in love."
[quote author=✞TheGodChrist✞ link=topic=9491.msg148395#msg148395 date=1322944960] It was well done, but keep this in mind:
"...speaking the truth in love." (Ephesians 4:15)
Once you use the "H" word (heretic), they lose all interest in your Orthodox Church. This applies even if they truly are heretics.
If there was an encouraging draw to Orthodoxy at the end, maybe a heartfelt feeling of sadness for the other person's error, then maybe the other person would see the error of their ways and really rethink their religion.
If there is no love in your rhetoric, then it is just bashing. Insults don't win souls for the Eternal Kingdom, the love of God does.
You win if you show them the true love of God and His Orthodox Church, and not by insulting them into despair. No one wants to be called "pathetic." God probably sees Him as the lost sheep, who He would die for if needed.
"No matter how just your words may be, you ruin everything when you speak with anger." (St. John Chrysostom)
Speak the truth, firmly, intelligently and factually, but always "in love."
[quote author=✞TheGodChrist✞ link=topic=9491.msg148395#msg148395 date=1322944960] It was well done, but keep this in mind:
"...speaking the truth in love." (Ephesians 4:15)
Once you use the "H" word (heretic), they lose all interest in your Orthodox Church. This applies even if they truly are heretics.
If there was an encouraging draw to Orthodoxy at the end, maybe a heartfelt feeling of sadness for the other person's error, then maybe the other person would see the error of their ways and really rethink their religion.
If there is no love in your rhetoric, then it is just bashing. Insults don't win souls for the Eternal Kingdom, the love of God does.
You win if you show them the true love of God and His Orthodox Church, and not by insulting them into despair. No one wants to be called "pathetic." God probably sees him as the lost sheep, who He would die for if needed.
"No matter how just your words may be, you ruin everything when you speak with anger." (St. John Chrysostom)
Speak the truth, firmly, intelligently and factually, but always "in love."
The truth about heretics is: They are heretics. Telling them they are heretics saves their souls. This is true love.
We have no single incident in the Church history in which a saint has put political correctness over the truth.
The Holy Spirit uses the faithful servants of the Lord to work in others. It never uses a politically correct, unfaithful "servant" of Satan to convery the message of salvation to others. When we hide behind earthly standards and think we are winning over souls, or when we use worldly methods to attract people, the Spirit is not present. These souls will be eventually lost again.
Trust the Lord as a change and see what will happen.
The truth about heretics is: They are heretics. Telling them they are heretics saves their souls. This is true love.
We have no single incident in the Church history in which a saint has put political correctness over the truth.
The Holy Spirit uses the faithful servants of the Lord to work in others. It never uses a politically correct, unfaithful "servant" of Satan to convery the message of salvation to others. When we hide behind earthly standards and think we are winning over souls, or when we use worldly methods to attract people, the Spirit is not present. These souls will be eventually lost again.
Trust the Lord as a change and see what will happen.
Stavro,
This is not about political correctness. This is about how to interact with another human being who is in error. A sinner, just like you and I, who has fallen away from the truth. This is more about expressing the forgiving love of Christ to the other person, and giving them a taste of what it feels like to be Orthodox. There is no sacrifice of principles here.
If I want to show someone the truth, it must be done in love. Do you not agree? Christ did this to everyone, even to the pharisees who were filled with self-righteousness and pride. Our Lord was firm and resolute, yet He still showed compassion to them.
"Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they do." (Luke 23:34)
St. Cyril was very much against Nestorius, and vehemently attacked his ideology. Yet at the same time, he never compromised His humility. He still had love and compassion for this heretic, just as he did for the unbelievers.
Our fathers were very firm in their beliefs, and they did not compromise their principles. No, not for a moment. But they were simultaneously filled with compassion for their enemies, as Christ commanded us to do.
This is how we must approach those who have fallen away.
Stavro, if you truly trust in the Lord...act like Him.
Why does God love us? Have we done anything to deserve this unfathomable act of self sacrifice?
The truth is, there is no reason for God to love us. Yet, in His ineffable mercy He still chooses to do so. In this same way, imitating the love Our Lord has for us, we must do the same to others. "We love Him because He first loved us." (1 John 4:19)
Forgive, have compassion, and feel for the other person. Spread the Gospel to all with solidarity and without compromise, but never forget that you and I are nothing but sinful servants.
[quote author=Stavro link=topic=9491.msg148474#msg148474 date=1323111177] The truth about heretics is: They are heretics. Telling them they are heretics saves their souls. This is true love.
Oh! I see! So when I was a little kid and told my sister "You're stupid" it was out of love because I didn't want her to be so stupid! This all makes sense now!
[quote author=servant33 link=topic=9491.msg148480#msg148480 date=1323115762] [quote author=Stavro link=topic=9491.msg148474#msg148474 date=1323111177] The truth about heretics is: They are heretics. Telling them they are heretics saves their souls. This is true love.
Oh! I see! So when I was a little kid and told my sister "You're stupid" it was out of love because I didn't want her to be so stupid! This all makes sense now!
Come on, servant33. You're leaving out intentions. You intended to insult your sister (I'm assuming). When you tell someone they are heretical this can be done out of love or be a form of condescension. It depends on you - how you say it and why you say it. So, the parallel isn't valid, I think.
I agree that it may have been over the top. There are few things that really set me off, and insulting my Savior by saying He is not God, is unacceptable. I read so much of the church fathers I often think that I can speak like they spoke. At the time I felt it was acceptable, it may or may not have been, but truth be told, I was holding back a lot of things I wanted to say. Not necessarily negative things but I did not want to get the conversation too deep and lose him. I view it as pointing out someones erroneous belief. He did not get it throughout the conversation so I put it bluntly.
@drilago99 if you are interested I can try to help. I like to think that the one thing I can do correctly is apologetics. If interested email me @ [email protected]
[quote author=Ioannes link=topic=9491.msg148516#msg148516 date=1323150541] I agree that it may have been over the top. There are few things that really set me off, and insulting my Savior by saying He is not God, is unacceptable. I read so much of the church fathers I often think that I can speak like they spoke. At the time I felt it was acceptable, it may or may not have been, but truth be told, I was holding back a lot of things I wanted to say. Not necessarily negative things but I did not want to get the conversation too deep and lose him. I view it as pointing out someones erroneous belief. He did not get it throughout the conversation so I put it bluntly.
@drilago99 if you are interested I can try to help. I like to think that the one thing I can do correctly is apologetics. If interested email me @ [email protected]
You have a rare gift for defending the faith. It is indeed commendable that you cherish the fathers that have come before you.
Just remember that your goal is to offer an open hand, not a clenched fist.
[quote author=✞TheGodChrist✞ link=topic=9491.msg148520#msg148520 date=1323152596] [quote author=Ioannes link=topic=9491.msg148516#msg148516 date=1323150541] I agree that it may have been over the top. There are few things that really set me off, and insulting my Savior by saying He is not God, is unacceptable. I read so much of the church fathers I often think that I can speak like they spoke. At the time I felt it was acceptable, it may or may not have been, but truth be told, I was holding back a lot of things I wanted to say. Not necessarily negative things but I did not want to get the conversation too deep and lose him. I view it as pointing out someones erroneous belief. He did not get it throughout the conversation so I put it bluntly.
@drilago99 if you are interested I can try to help. I like to think that the one thing I can do correctly is apologetics. If interested email me @ [email protected]
You have a rare gift for defending the faith. It is indeed commendable that you cherish the fathers that have come before you.
Just remember that your goal is to offer an open hand, not a clenched fist.
✞✞✞
Indeed. Often time truth, when spoken bluntly, can be offensive. JW's generally never leave that faith, even if they despise it. It is a cult and they know if they leave they will be excommunicated by everyone, including family and friends. It may be a mistake but I feel with them it is necessary to be blunt to convey the seriousness of their errors. But again, I adapt my style according to the person and faith. I may not be correct, and will be held accountable for this.
Comments
ReturnOrthodoxy
Thanks everyone. There are many things I could have said but I was trying to get HIM to realize them, hopefully the listeners did. If anyone is interested in apologetics email me [email protected]
Ioannes! You're back! ;D Can you please post more videos like this ;D. But on YouTube so we don't have to sit through ads every 5 min. And don't call them names, just present rational arguments. Thanks ;)
Thanks everyone. There are many things I could have said but I was trying to get HIM to realize them, hopefully the listeners did. If anyone is interested in apologetics email me [email protected]
I'm interested!! How can you help me? :)
[quote author=servant33 link=topic=9491.msg148366#msg148366 date=1322889802]
[quote author=Ioannes link=topic=9491.msg148364#msg148364 date=1322886771]
Thanks everyone. There are many things I could have said but I was trying to get HIM to realize them, hopefully the listeners did. If anyone is interested in apologetics email me [email protected]
Ioannes! You're back! ;D Can you please post more videos like this ;D. But on YouTube so we don't have to sit through ads every 5 min. And don't call them names, just present rational arguments. Thanks ;)
Yup, please. I agree that you should post these on youtube. Also, more would be great as it also teaches us how to approach these people and what we can say. Also, I can't watch the video! I've reached the first four minutes and due to bad buffering it would bring an advertisement and then end the video. :( Please post on youtube. Thanks!
"Brethren, if a man is overtaken in any trespass, you who are spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness, considering yourself lest you also be tempted." (Ga 6:1)
"...speaking the truth in love." (Ephesians 4:15)
Once you use the "H" word (heretic), they lose all interest in your Orthodox Church. This applies even if they truly are heretics.
If there was an encouraging draw to Orthodoxy at the end, maybe a heartfelt feeling of sadness for the other person's error, then maybe the other person would see the error of their ways and really rethink their religion.
If there is no love in your rhetoric, then it is just bashing. Insults don't win souls for the Eternal Kingdom, the love of God does.
You win if you show them the true love of God and His Orthodox Church, and not by insulting them into despair. No one wants to be called "pathetic." God probably sees him as the lost sheep, who He would die for if needed.
"No matter how just your words may be, you ruin everything when you speak with anger." (St. John Chrysostom)
Speak the truth, firmly, intelligently and factually, but always "in love."
+++
It was well done, but keep this in mind:
"...speaking the truth in love." (Ephesians 4:15)
Once you use the "H" word (heretic), they lose all interest in your Orthodox Church. This applies even if they truly are heretics.
If there was an encouraging draw to Orthodoxy at the end, maybe a heartfelt feeling of sadness for the other person's error, then maybe the other person would see the error of their ways and really rethink their religion.
If there is no love in your rhetoric, then it is just bashing. Insults don't win souls for the Eternal Kingdom, the love of God does.
You win if you show them the true love of God and His Orthodox Church, and not by insulting them into despair. No one wants to be called "pathetic." God probably sees Him as the lost sheep, who He would die for if needed.
"No matter how just your words may be, you ruin everything when you speak with anger." (St. John Chrysostom)
Speak the truth, firmly, intelligently and factually, but always "in love."
+++
*like*
It was well done, but keep this in mind:
"...speaking the truth in love." (Ephesians 4:15)
Once you use the "H" word (heretic), they lose all interest in your Orthodox Church. This applies even if they truly are heretics.
If there was an encouraging draw to Orthodoxy at the end, maybe a heartfelt feeling of sadness for the other person's error, then maybe the other person would see the error of their ways and really rethink their religion.
If there is no love in your rhetoric, then it is just bashing. Insults don't win souls for the Eternal Kingdom, the love of God does.
You win if you show them the true love of God and His Orthodox Church, and not by insulting them into despair. No one wants to be called "pathetic." God probably sees him as the lost sheep, who He would die for if needed.
"No matter how just your words may be, you ruin everything when you speak with anger." (St. John Chrysostom)
Speak the truth, firmly, intelligently and factually, but always "in love."
+++
*like*
We have no single incident in the Church history in which a saint has put political correctness over the truth.
The Holy Spirit uses the faithful servants of the Lord to work in others. It never uses a politically correct, unfaithful "servant" of Satan to convery the message of salvation to others. When we hide behind earthly standards and think we are winning over souls, or when we use worldly methods to attract people, the Spirit is not present. These souls will be eventually lost again.
Trust the Lord as a change and see what will happen.
We have no single incident in the Church history in which a saint has put political correctness over the truth.
The Holy Spirit uses the faithful servants of the Lord to work in others. It never uses a politically correct, unfaithful "servant" of Satan to convery the message of salvation to others. When we hide behind earthly standards and think we are winning over souls, or when we use worldly methods to attract people, the Spirit is not present. These souls will be eventually lost again.
Trust the Lord as a change and see what will happen.
Stavro,
This is not about political correctness. This is about how to interact with another human being who is in error. A sinner, just like you and I, who has fallen away from the truth. This is more about expressing the forgiving love of Christ to the other person, and giving them a taste of what it feels like to be Orthodox. There is no sacrifice of principles here.
If I want to show someone the truth, it must be done in love. Do you not agree? Christ did this to everyone, even to the pharisees who were filled with self-righteousness and pride. Our Lord was firm and resolute, yet He still showed compassion to them.
"Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they do." (Luke 23:34)
St. Cyril was very much against Nestorius, and vehemently attacked his ideology. Yet at the same time, he never compromised His humility. He still had love and compassion for this heretic, just as he did for the unbelievers.
Our fathers were very firm in their beliefs, and they did not compromise their principles. No, not for a moment. But they were simultaneously filled with compassion for their enemies, as Christ commanded us to do.
This is how we must approach those who have fallen away.
Stavro, if you truly trust in the Lord...act like Him.
Why does God love us? Have we done anything to deserve this unfathomable act of self sacrifice?
The truth is, there is no reason for God to love us. Yet, in His ineffable mercy He still chooses to do so. In this same way, imitating the love Our Lord has for us, we must do the same to others. "We love Him because He first loved us." (1 John 4:19)
Forgive, have compassion, and feel for the other person. Spread the Gospel to all with solidarity and without compromise, but never forget that you and I are nothing but sinful servants.
✞✞✞
The truth about heretics is: They are heretics. Telling them they are heretics saves their souls. This is true love.
Oh! I see! So when I was a little kid and told my sister "You're stupid" it was out of love because I didn't want her to be so stupid! This all makes sense now!
[quote author=Stavro link=topic=9491.msg148474#msg148474 date=1323111177]
The truth about heretics is: They are heretics. Telling them they are heretics saves their souls. This is true love.
Oh! I see! So when I was a little kid and told my sister "You're stupid" it was out of love because I didn't want her to be so stupid! This all makes sense now!
Come on, servant33. You're leaving out intentions. You intended to insult your sister (I'm assuming). When you tell someone they are heretical this can be done out of love or be a form of condescension. It depends on you - how you say it and why you say it. So, the parallel isn't valid, I think.
@drilago99 if you are interested I can try to help. I like to think that the one thing I can do correctly is apologetics. If interested email me @ [email protected]
I agree that it may have been over the top. There are few things that really set me off, and insulting my Savior by saying He is not God, is unacceptable. I read so much of the church fathers I often think that I can speak like they spoke. At the time I felt it was acceptable, it may or may not have been, but truth be told, I was holding back a lot of things I wanted to say. Not necessarily negative things but I did not want to get the conversation too deep and lose him. I view it as pointing out someones erroneous belief. He did not get it throughout the conversation so I put it bluntly.
@drilago99 if you are interested I can try to help. I like to think that the one thing I can do correctly is apologetics. If interested email me @ [email protected]
You have a rare gift for defending the faith. It is indeed commendable that you cherish the fathers that have come before you.
Just remember that your goal is to offer an open hand, not a clenched fist.
✞✞✞
[quote author=Ioannes link=topic=9491.msg148516#msg148516 date=1323150541]
I agree that it may have been over the top. There are few things that really set me off, and insulting my Savior by saying He is not God, is unacceptable. I read so much of the church fathers I often think that I can speak like they spoke. At the time I felt it was acceptable, it may or may not have been, but truth be told, I was holding back a lot of things I wanted to say. Not necessarily negative things but I did not want to get the conversation too deep and lose him. I view it as pointing out someones erroneous belief. He did not get it throughout the conversation so I put it bluntly.
@drilago99 if you are interested I can try to help. I like to think that the one thing I can do correctly is apologetics. If interested email me @ [email protected]
You have a rare gift for defending the faith. It is indeed commendable that you cherish the fathers that have come before you.
Just remember that your goal is to offer an open hand, not a clenched fist.
✞✞✞
Indeed. Often time truth, when spoken bluntly, can be offensive. JW's generally never leave that faith, even if they despise it. It is a cult and they know if they leave they will be excommunicated by everyone, including family and friends. It may be a mistake but I feel with them it is necessary to be blunt to convey the seriousness of their errors. But again, I adapt my style according to the person and faith. I may not be correct, and will be held accountable for this.