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The Virgin Mary
I thought in our church we believe that the virgin mary was a virgin all her life. I was listening to a minister speak and he said that the virgin Mary was a virgin when she had Jesus and after that her and Joseph made love and she had 7 to 8 kids. What is your thoughts on this? Was she a virgin all her life if so how do we know this? Please help with your answers, I am a little confused.
Thanks,
Pray for me
C
Thanks,
Pray for me
C
Comments
If this is a poll I politely decline to participate.
(btw I refuse the idea of a vote for this, sorry)
The VIRGIN Mary is the Door in the East:
Ezekiel witnessed and spoke of you
In the East he saw a Door
In it entered her Creator
And the door was tightly shut ....
.....
You remained the celibate Virgin
geh sheeri ...
GBU
St. Joseph was advanced in age when he married St. Mary and had children’s previously. The siblings of Jesus mentioned in the bible are not that of St. Mary but of St. Joseph from a previous marriage. If I am not mistaken St. Josephs first wife died so he married a second time.
Concerning voting on this matter I don’t have anything to add to what John_S2000 said. Democracy is a wonderful notion but our church doesn’t make her doctrines via majority vote. We “earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.” Jude 1:3
In Christ
Theophilus
the Prince entered through the east gate and then it was shut permanently. the east gate represents saint mary's womb. there is loads of symbolism in ezekiel 44, maybe someone else can write more as i have to work, it is a very big topic!
please take it easy on the man. I think his intentions in having made the poll is to know what every one believed and not what everyone thought so we can all answer with strong assurance 1000% that she remained a virgin even after giving birth to Jesus.
I understand that some evangelists oppose our view as they think that the Virgin has once achieved her role and that's it and saying that she remained a Virgin would take her to a higher status than all humans which is exactly true in our faith.
There is another thing people should note. We all have to be more meticulous with what we say. Virgin Mary never married or got married to anybody. She was engaged to support a 90 year old man St. Joseph and they were never married.
Happy Coptic Christmas everyone
[coptic]nofri pijinmici `nrem`n<ymi
oujai qen `P[C[/coptic]
Thank you,
Pray for me.
It's OK. About your friend everyone is entitled to have his own opinions, forgive me too.
But the Christian doctrine is Truth and not a matter of opinions because whatever any opinions will not change it. Truth is found by searching Scripture and asking God His Help to illuminate the soul, by asking your FOC and by reading and understanding the Church's rich Apostolic, Patristic (and continuous) legacy. A voting for Christian doctrinal subjects is irrelevant, useless and offending - and if required it should be made by the Holy Synod and HH the Pope alone.
HH Pope Shenouda III was once asked a related question about Christ's "Your Mother and brothers..." when He was teaching and doing miracles in a house, some told Him this to let Him leave. He said "who are my mother and brothers..." etc. HH answer was that anyway any close cousin was considered and called a brother/sister by these times and area's society standards.
I think the references are "Years with People's Questions" book series by HH.
Misinterpreting or not knowing this important notion would lead to a wrong idea that Jesus had many real brothers while He didn't. If He had shouldn't they be logically chosen by Him to take care of St Mary instead of St John (while He was on the Cross: "...Behold, your mother...")? Also St Mary, dedicated to the Lord but now an orphan and who was soon expected to leave the Temple after she reached the puberty or teen age, +++was always betrothed (i.e. in a state of being not yet married) to St Joseph, an elder chosen by a clear sign from God, and this was an adequate arrangement suiting both parties' situations stayed as such till he died.
re-EDITED
+++
My grave error forgive me Lord and all brothers/sisters for I have made a big sin: I wrongly understood this from a book I read many years earlier. For I should have correctly written instead:
they stayed in the betrothal state of non-consummate marriage even after they married and logical situation keeping the Holy Virgin in her perpetual state of Virginity and stayed as such till he died.
Thank you so much Father Peter for kindly correcting me to understand the true meaning.
GBU
If thats the case, then the whole image of him being a senior citizen when she was a young teen, doesn't really stand.
With that said, comes the second part of my question: We know that St. Mary and St. Joseph lived together, and taking in to consideration how society was back then [meaning only husband and wife lived together] is it safe to assume they were married on paper only?
gregorytheSinner, I understand this issue now better, you are right.
St Joseph was very worried when he noticed St Mary's pregnancy and the angel of the Lord came and explained it to him. He decided to keep St Mary as his wife while he understood she was holy and so they did not fulfill their marriage physically.
Betrothal arrangements (for orphans, when the time is set to leave) were common because there were many youth boys and girls who were dedicated to the Lord by their parents and were living in the Temple buildings for many years. It follows they would marry after that.
EDITED
By Theophilus 1 That's totally correct except that it was never marriage. It was not to be consummate.
I am very sorry my brother, forgive my mistake.
All I know is that St Joseph died years before Jesus Christ started His public ministry.
GBU
First of all this is a spiritual matter and needs a spiritual answer. The answer that comes from the flesh and mind is just always short and blind. When we talk of St. Mary we are not dealing with an ordinary woman. We are talking about a woman who gave birth to God. If we truly believe that she gave birth to God then it should have been really simple to know that she remained virgin. Can you imagine how holy she is? she is a sacred throne of God.
The Bible scriptures, the holy saints in their writings have confirmed the same truth.
By the way what minister is saying this? why in the first place u listen to ministers outside our church? these the so called ministers should sit infornt of our church fathers and listen first to teach. They interpret the Bible as a fiction and they preach a fiction. They are liars just as their master, the devil. They will destroy ur innocence and will rob u off ur real heavenly truth and will give u their stupid imagination and guess.
If you want to know about St. Mary read the writings of real saints of the Orthodox Church. Forget all the ministers who eat half of their days and tell u what their flesh and defiled mind tells them. Facts in a religion are not like some theories u throw ur oppinion on. It is a not a question of intellect but of faith.
Not only St. Mary is virgin in the flesh but also in her heart and mind. All her life the Holy Spirit protected her.
GBU Through the intercessions of the virgin mary the theotokos
http://www.copticchurch.net/topics/theology/comptheo.pdf
The perpetual virginity section starts on page 125
Who would you rather believe? A modern minister who decides to interpret the Bible completely in his own way without any regard to history? Or the Coptic Orthodox Church which has been around during the lifetime of the apostles and saints? Basically, if Mary indeed had other children, why would the church fathers, who lived during that time have venerated her as a perpetual virgin? If she had other children, it would have been obvious back then that she was not a virgin. Since the ones who lived during that time called her a perpetual virgin, we can have no doubt that she indeed did not have other children.
re-EDITED:
It's OK. About your friend everyone is entitled to have his own opinions, forgive me too.
But the Christian doctrine is Truth and not a matter of opinions because whatever any opinions will not change it. Truth is found by searching Scripture and asking God His Help to illuminate the soul, by asking your FOC and by reading and understanding the Church's rich Apostolic, Patristic (and continuous) legacy. A voting for Christian doctrinal subjects is irrelevant, useless and offending - and if required it should be made by the Holy Synod and HH the Pope alone.
HH Pope Shenouda III was once asked a related question about Christ's "Your Mother and brothers..." when He was teaching and doing miracles in a house, some told Him this to let Him leave. He said "who are my mother and brothers..." etc. HH answer was that anyway any close cousin was considered and called a brother/sister by these times and area's society standards.
I think the references are "Years with People's Questions" book series by HH.
Misinterpreting or not knowing this important notion would lead to a wrong idea that Jesus had many real brothers while He didn't. If He had shouldn't they be logically chosen by Him to take care of St Mary instead of St John (while He was on the Cross: "...Behold, your mother...")? Also St Mary, dedicated to the Lord but now an orphan and who was soon expected to leave the Temple after she reached the puberty or teen age, +++was always betrothed (i.e. in a state of being not yet married) to St Joseph, an elder chosen by a clear sign from God, and this was an adequate arrangement suiting both parties' situations stayed as such till he died.
re-EDITED
+++
My grave error forgive me Lord and all brothers/sisters for I have made a big sin: I wrongly understood this from a book I read many years earlier. For I should have correctly written instead:
they stayed in the betrothal state of non-consummate marriage even after they married and logical situation keeping the Holy Virgin in her perpetual state of Virginity and stayed as such till he died.
Thank you so much Father Peter for kindly correcting me to understand the true meaning.
GBU
Dear John,
Forgive me for resurrecting an old thread, but I read it late and it needs to be rectified. I find the parts that you edited were the correct teaching of our church. It is said first thoughts are mostly right!
Here is how Fr Taddros , a time-tested Orthodox theologian puts things into perspective. The notion that St Mary was married is Protestant and is mercilessly rejected as heresy.
"Marriage or Betrothal !!
According to the Jewish tradition, the nuptial consists of two steps: betrothal and marriage proper. After certain financial arrangements, the couple were betrothed to one another in the house of the bride. The betrothal was in every respect equivalent to our marriage except without any sexual relationship. The betrothed woman was called the man’s wife; and she became widow if her betrothed died, and she claimed the financial settlement accorded to a wife when widowed or divorced. In case of infidelity she was liable to the same punishment as an adulterous wife.Like a wife she could not be dismissed without a bill of divorce.If the betrothed woman had not been married previously, she usually waited a year before the second step, the marriage proper, was taken*(2) .Now, we can understand why St. Mary was called “St. Joseph’s wife”, although they were betrothed and not married".
*(2) W. L. Strack & P. L Billenbeck: Kommentar Zum Neuen TestamentausTalmud und Midrasi, Munchen, 1924, vol. 2, p. 377-394
St Basil is very clear that the Virgin Mary was married to St Joseph. He says...
The marriage with Joseph was planned so that mary's virginity might remain hidden from the prince of this world. For the external forms of marriage were adopted by the Virgin, almost as if to distract the Evil One, who has always preyed on virgins, ever since he heard the prophet announcing, 'Behold the virgin shall conceive a bear a son'. With this marriage, then, the tempter of virginity was deceived, for he knew that the coming of the Lord in the flesh would entail the destruction of his dominion.
And this makes sense from many points of view. It would be almost impossible for a woman to become pregnant and live with a man, a respected man in his community, without being married. How can we imagine that the Virgin Mary would like in St Joseph's house, and bear a child, and yet never have been married to him. It would not be allowed.
St Basil affirms this opinion and goes on to say...
In Joseph, Mary had a spouse and guardian of her life, so that there would be a witness who was familiar with her purity, and so that calumniators would not be given the pretext to accuse her of having violated her virginity.
It was therefore necessary for her to be married, as this was the means by which she was preserved from slander and from discovery by Satan.
Father Peter