Did Christ Doubt?

gregorytheSinner

So I'm watching the Sopranos, lol, and a Catholic priest is being consulted about the life/death situation of one of his parishioners.  The priest, comforts him, and says "Where you there for Christ's moment of doubt and pain?"

Now, I'm assuming this moment, is the prayer at Gethsemane (Mark 14:32 -42).  Where God was sorrowful to the point of death, and asks the Father to take "the cup" away from him.

To be honest, although I've always known this passage, I've never really put that much thought into it.  And as a member of the Orthodox Church, i also know we don't agree with our Catholic brothers about everything.

So my question is: Do we believe that Jesus, doubted?  (I'm guessing we don't)  In that case, Whats our theological stand on this story?

deaconmark123

I am going to take a try and say yes he did doubt. But I don't think I should br your first person to trust. Hopefully I didn't sinfor thinking that :'(

peterfarrington

No, I  don't think we can use the Garden of Gethsemane to show that our Lord doubted, and certainly not as the heretics did, and do, to show that Jesus had a different will to the Word of God, as if they were two willing subjects.

What we see in the Garden is surely the manifestation of the natural human shrinking from pain and death which is an instinctual psychological reaction. To be afraid is to be human, and the Word of God incarnate was fully and completely human yet without sin. It is not sinful to shrink from pain and death.

We see that far from choosing something other than God's will at all time, which would be impossible for Christ since He is God made man and not a mere man, he clearly says 'not my will but yours be done'. He wills to do God's will. He denies himself - that human animal instict - and chooses the will of God for himself.

We ourselves grow hungry in the fasts, this is not sin, our bodies say 'I will to eat', and we say, 'Not my will but yours be done'. This doesn't mean that we don't want to fast. It does mean that we have desires and appetites at a variety of levels and so our willing is complex. We can both want to eat, and want to carry on studying, and leave it all and go and pray. We are at least three levels of will - animal, psychological and spiritual. We have to work hard to choose which will is going to be dominant.

In Christ, in the Garden, we see that he is fully human, and his natural human impulse is to shrink from pain and death. But his higher will, which is also human, the I inside that should dominate in a balanced Christian human person, says 'It doesn't matter what you want, I am choosing God's will'.

I don't believe that Christ doubted. We would have to read the Fathers to understand what they said. But it seems to me that doubt is different to fear. Doubt says 'I no longer trust God, I no longer have faith in God'. Faithful Fear (if there is such a coupling of words) says 'My body is shaking and I am so afraid of what is going to happen, but I know you are there with me God'.

I am willing to be contradicted about the doubting, but I think it is a matter of faith and Christ could never be without faith.

Father Peter

geomike

HE ABSOLUTELY DIDN'T DOUBT



Remember Jesus is God He knows what is going to happen and what is planned for Him.


IF YOU KNEW THIS WHY WOULD YOU DOUBT?

IF WHAT I SAID WAS WRONG PLEASE CORRECT ME.

gregorytheSinner

I sorta get what you saying, Father.  And as Geo said, He is God, thus He already knows.  The only thing still not clicking with me is, why then would Christ ask the Father to take away from him "this cup"?  If Christ already knows that this cup is the key to salvation.  (I'm assuming that the Cup, means the Lords Trial/Crucifixion?)

Unknown

Father Peter explained it right. May I contribute?

Our Lord Jesus Christ never doubted for even the blink of an eye, He knows all the time He is "the Son of man" (i.e. Son = the Word and man = human). Such thing as "Jesus doubt" is not found anywhere in the Bible. About the situation in these inspired verses, Jesus offers us one more proof that He, the Lord is both fully human (but without sin), as well as the Word incarnate (His Godhead).

Jesus is saying to the Father: "..Yet not what I will, but what you will."

He also said a bit later to the disciples "The spirit is willing, but the body is weak".

Is it easier for a human waiting for an imminent death he/she knows of in advance and aware of it, with all the expected pain details (it's agony "the struggle that precedes death") - or isn't it much easier if the death is sudden and unexpected (this should be less painful, right?).

GBU

gregorytheSinner

Thanks a bucnh for the great answers, which have clearly made the point that Christ didn't doubt.  However, i'm still pretty unclear about the refrence to "taking the cup away"

Can someone further explain, that specific verse?

Unknown

Jesus the Lamb of God is experiencing real pain, His manhood would instinctively want that the anticipated pains and difficult death may not occur, if possible "the body is weak".. yet He immediately continues "..yet not what I will, but what you will."

The sour "cup" of real pain and death on the Cross is not easy to swallow, even when the Resurrection is sure to happen.
28 “But after I have been raised, I will go before you to Galilee.”

Jesus is so sad:
34 Then He said to them, “My soul is exceedingly sorrowful, even to death. Stay here and watch.” indeed that's not doubt, but sorrow.

GBU

socoolbishoy

The ALMIGHTY GOD, THE ALL KNOWING GOD doubted!!!

the statement in itself doesn't make sense, lets take it little by little, by the way the answer has been answered, I'm just rewording it!

at first Jesus spoke easily about His death, and the salvation!

now I'll tell you this... lets say that you knew that tomorrow you will stand in front of a ruler, and confess Jesus' name, and you will not only die, but go through so much torture! now tell me how are you going to feel?!

as the Christ was one hundred percent God... He was also one hundred percent human!
now He knew there was salvation, when He stood to pray, He was worried about whats going to happen... His stress level was so high you can see to what extent in the gospel of saint Luke, who was a physician and understood, and he mentioned it...

saying, “Father, if it is Your will, take this cup away from Me; nevertheless not My will, but Yours, be done.”  Then an angel appeared to Him from heaven, strengthening Him. And being in agony, He prayed more earnestly. Then His sweat became like great drops of blood falling down to the ground.

its amazing how much Jesus suffered... to the point that He suffered psychologically.

now back to the scenario of you becoming a martyr... you look around all your friends left you, and when you sit to pray you keep thinking about how much this pain is going to hurt!
you kneel down, and tell God, I know this cup (which is the blood shed) is going to be painful, take it away if you can, but You know what, not my will but Yours be done!

this is exactly what happened... Jesus stood, and his body being weak, for He is fully Human also, having a brain, which will think and stress... said if it can be without the blood, but in the end its Your will be done... as He prayed His sweat became blood, which would happen due to excessive stress!

but throughout all of this, He is still fully human, and fully God... God never separated!

how you may ask... well we can go along with it psychologically.... in this case I would like to think of it as the "ID" "EGO" "SUPEREGO"

the id in this case is the body, with its weaknesses... the superego is the Divinity... and the ego is Christ...  this is the best way I put it to understand it for myself...

but the id wants its desires... which is the body focusing on its rest, the superego is the divinity saying its for the salvation... and the ego is the moderation between the two, and deals with it realistically... and we clearly see the ego telling the superego your will be done!
lol that was the Freudian approach!

akhadna el baraka, neshkor Allah!