Matt 6:24 24 “No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon."
Whoever gives into sin is a slave of sin (not idols)
You can't serve God and mammon is a reference to idolatry because Jesus is speaking of having high devotion (lit. "serving") money. This is in fact a perfect verse to illustrate my point I have (some) money, yet my life doesn't revolve around it therefore I don't idolize money. How is drinking in moderation not exactly the same. Yes if a person's entire day revolved around getting drunk every night, if the main reason for that person to work was to make money to buy alcohol, then I would agree that that person is idolizing alcohol. I repeat drinking in moderation is not idolatry and I assert that even drunkenness is not idolatry. Drunkenness is a sin because it violates God's word and it defiles his immage in us, not because it is somehow idolatry.
I'm pretty sure Theophan the recluse is referring to the same concept as James 2:10 "For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all."
the_least,
It would be very kind of you to answer my question. What is your criteria for calling something an idol?
dear george, don't give up serving, you have no idea how many people need your inspiration and the wisdom God gives you. keep asking, keep seeking and God will give you and your spiritual fathers guidance.
Your compassion is inspiring. Somehow you reminded me that it doesn't really matter who is right or wrong on technical matters as long as we all rely on God as our true source of grace and wisdom.
God provided us with an immeasurable variety of things to enjoy. If He really wants fermented grapes to be one of those things I'll leave that up to Him.
I think that we now are called upon to live by the Spirit, not the Law (in the OT sence..) There is no hallal or haram (clean or unclean) anymore, we are above that level of material and physical laws (to an extent at least)... I think as Christians we are not bound by a list of things that are allowed or not allowed, we have to look beyond that, our goal is Christ for He is the Life, He is also the Way, the Truth, in Him, by Him we reach Life... As long as we put our will and our spirit under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, then I believe we 'feel' what's right and what's wrong, it's like when you get burnt by something hot, you automatically pull your hand away from the source of the heat since your nerves send a signal to your brain to do so... This way also Christians who are serious abt following God have a built in 'voice of God' or maybe one can refer to it as 'conscience under divine control' that tells us and gives us a signal when something is not ok...
I once had a huge dilemma, and it was a matter that kept me restless for over a year, I couldn't figure out the will of God, and someone gave me this great piece of advice: Don't look at the outside, the circumstances, etc. Rather look INSIDE, in your heart, that's where God will communicate with you and let you know His will...
So when it comes to alcohol, I personally believe there is nothing wrong with the substance itself (not like with smoking which is in itself a damaging activity), but, like anything, it has to be done in moderation... Drinking alcohol, does not, in my opinion, mean you're walking on the edge and taking a risk, one should have some self-knowledge and estimate themselves correctly. If you are an occasional drinker, who knows his/her limit and who doesn't drink for the wrong reasons, then I don't see any risk in that... This does not imply you're arrogant, it simply implies you know your weaknesses, and drinking is not one of them... If someone knows that going on the net is too great of a temptation for them and they know they won't resist the temptation to visit certain sites, then it might be best for them, knowing themselves to refrain from using the net without supervision or at certain times etc. but that doesn't mean that just going on the net in itself is a risk, otherwise we would all be 'walking on the edge', each one has his/her weaknesses, but not all have the same weaknesses, self-knowledge is essential here... And just as chocolate tastes sweet and is enjoyable, yet not a sin, so also, the fact that a nice glass of red wine can be enjoyable is not a criterium for it to make it a sin...
I think we need to look at it like this: the OT, we were like little children who needed all these rules, yet now, in the NT, we have grown up to an extent where we can define for ourselves (again, to a certain extent of course) what is right and what is not... All of this through the Grace of God and with the guidance of the Holy Spirit...
[quote author=Godislove260 link=topic=7874.msg103689#msg103689 date=1243891844] If someone knows that going on the net is too great of a temptation for them and they know they won't resist the temptation to visit certain sites, then it might be best for them, knowing themselves to refrain from using the net without supervision or at certain times etc. but that doesn't mean that just going on the net in itself is a risk, otherwise we would all be 'walking on the edge',
No, because as i mentioned before to QT on this forum, some things we have to do, for good reasons (ie. internet) there are other things that we don't have to do (ie. drinking). both of these things are dangerous, meaning they make us more vulnerable for the devil to attack us; however, if there is something that we don't have to do and it will not benefit us in any way, why do it?
I asked this question before and no one answered it. Maybe you can provide an answer.
[quote author=the_least link=topic=7874.msg102271#msg102271 date=1240704223] please, tell me exactly the reason you do it. why can't you just have a nice cold non-alcoholic drink and walk in the middle of the bridge rather than risking it and walking on the very edge. it just doesn't make sense.
Godislove260, after reading your post, i went to the suscopts website to check if Anba Youssef wrote anything about this and i found out that he did. It's right here.
GArgiriadis,
[quote author=GArgiriadis link=topic=7874.msg103681#msg103681 date=1243886563] I repeat drinking in moderation is not idolatry
i never said it is and neither did anyone on this forum. all i said to QT was that resorting to it instead of God to "wind down" is.
[quote author=GArgiriadis link=topic=7874.msg103681#msg103681 date=1243886563] What is your criteria for calling something an idol?
i will let someone wiser than me provide you with an answer seeing as you did not agree with the answers i gave to QT.
[quote author=GArgiriadis link=topic=7874.msg103681#msg103681 date=1243886563] [quote author=the_least link=topic=7874.msg103680#msg103680 date=1243885225] St. Theophan the Recluse He who refuses to give into passions does the same as he who refuses to bow down and worship idols.
I'm pretty sure Theophan the recluse is referring to the same concept as James 2:10 "For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all."
What you seem to be going at is that some people believe that they can discern. let me warn you, never say "I can" but rather what God has allowed me to do.
forgive me, but i think this thought of "I can" is from the devil.
Godislove260, you mentioned something about self-knowledge. i think you should be more knowledgeable of your weaknesses rather than your strengths because our strength comes from God alone. "But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ" (Galations 6:14). "Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me" (2 Corinthians 12:9) "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast" (Ephesians 2:8-9) I think self-knowledge should equal humility.
'Know thyself': this is true humility, the humility that teaches us to be inwardly humble and makes our heart contrite. Such humility you must cultivate and guard. For if you do not yet know yourself you cannot know what humility is, and have not yet embarked truly on the task of cultivating and guarding. To know oneself is the goal of the practice of the virtues. (Nikitas Stithatos in The Philokalia, Vol. 4)
If you think you can discern, consider this: "Humility is the only thing we need; one can still fall having virtues other than humility -- but with humility one does not fall." (St. Benedict)
[quote author=GArgiriadis link=topic=7874.msg103703#msg103703 date=1243900045] What do you think Theophan the recluse meant?
I think he meant exactly what User00 said,
[quote author=user00 link=topic=7874.msg103636#msg103636 date=1243743770] In the OT, it's true that idols referred to stone objects of worship. Now obviously most people today don't worship such things, but many are still idolaters. Idols can include money, other people, one's own self,work, school, career, material objects like a car, jewelry. I like the way the least defined an idol as anything or anyone that takes the place of God in your life.
So what does that mean? That means that it is the center of your life. That means that it consumes your thoughts, you live your life with it in mind, and basically it's the most important thing in the world to you. Even other people can be idols. Remember Christ said "Whoever loves sister, mother, children, spouse, etc. more than Me is not worthy of Me".
Idolatry, almost most people wouldn't admit it or recognize it, is very common. I think that if there was no idolatry in your heart, then you would be fully faithful to God and never sin—which doesn't really happen (except I guess with the saints—but even they struggle). So it's something we struggle against—but ya, idolatry is something we need to beware of. It's it's more important (and be honest with yourself) to you than God, it's an idol.
[quote author=GArgiriadis link=topic=7874.msg103681#msg103681 date=1243886563] [quote author=the_least link=topic=7874.msg103647#msg103647 date=1243815451] John 8:34 Jesus answered them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin"
Whoever gives into sin is a slave of sin (not idols)
In this verse, the sin is the idol. that is because it is saying that you are a slave to it. A slave is one who serves or worships. And if you're worshiping sin - or rather just committing sin like the verse tells us - the sin is your idol.
and the same goes for this verse: Matthew 6:24 that User00 provided. The purpose of providing this verse is to illustrate that idols can be materialistic things like money. That's all.
keep me in your prayers
also, Can someone please provide GArgiriadis with an answer to his question: "What is the criteria for calling something an idol?"
I agree with the essence of what user00 said, but my point is that the center of a person't life is not necessarily something that person likes.
If a person wants to really determine what their center is, they need to analyze what they are thinking at times when they need to make a decision. For example, a man goes out to buy a car. If he selects a really expensive car because he wants to look cool, his center may be either himself or his self image in front of others or maybe pride. If he buys a really expensive car just to outdo some guy at the office, that guy may be his center. If that same person buys a minivan so he can take his family on road trips he may be family centered. If he buys a minivan so he can carry work materials from one place to another he might be work centered.
Everyone ought to be watchful and frequently ask themselves what is really at their center. I'm saying that if there is any common theme in your decision making other than God, you might be in some trouble because that thing, weather you like it or not, may be your center.
You can be centered on idols without liking them just like the fictional car buyer I mentionned can have a coworker at his center without liking him. If you consider every sin to be idolatry and idolatry comes up over and over every day, and is a major agent in your decision making then you may be in a very dangerous place because you may have idols at your center.
ok, what you said makes sense, but i don't see the connection between what you said and what we were talking about. can you please kindly make that connection for me.
Yes, I too don't see the connection. I think George misunderstood what I said.
You can buy a car. But your car is not necessarily an idol. It would be a idol if you thought about it all day, spent all your money fixing it up with expensive, extraneous features, and loved it more than anything else in life.
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=7874.msg102235#msg102235 date=1240588491] [quote author=Godislove_ link=topic=7874.msg102218#msg102218 date=1240521607] I do believe that God Himself changed water into ALCOHOLIC wine at the wedding of Cana. I know it was wine that was alcoholic, as if it wasn't wine it would have been called grape juice or ribena.
I preety sure QT_PA_2A thats it WAS NOT ALCOHOLIC wine at the wedding of Cana, and several preists have confirmed this to me. I don't know who would tell you otherwise???
But if it was not alcoholic it would not have been wine. Wine is the fermented juice of a fruit.
It seems to me to be clear that throughout much of Egyptian history people were drinking real alcoholic wine and it was certainly being used in the communion. There are even instructions as to how wine was to be made in the desert by the monks from fermented raisins. There may be reasons why this should be a matter of controversy now, but it seems to me that there is rather an unnecessary fear of alcoholic beverages, rather than the misuse of them.
Personally I would find it rather shocking not to use wine in the communion. It seems to me to be canonically required. And as far as my own sources go I understand that wine was always used in Coptic Orthodox communion until quite recently.
Throughout the scriptures alcoholic wine is referred to in Psalms and songs in the sense of something which is a means of joy, as well as a means of drunkenness. But this should not be surprising. It is possible to both use and misuse all of the gifts of God. It does concern me a little when we develop a puritanical streak that almost denies any enjoyment in the world. It seems to me it is difficult to stop the slippery slope of judging one another when once we start.
As far as I can see all the other Orthodox Churches allow a moderate use of alcohol, therefore we must be a little careful not to elevate the present response to alcohol in the Coptic Church to an absolute command.
I understand father. But i was told that it was non alcoholic because as they drank they they sobered up and said: John 2:10 And he said to him, “Every man at the beginning sets out the good wine, and when the guests have well drunk, then the inferior. You have kept the good wine until now!” I do not think that a person who is intoxicated could tell the difference between between good and bad wine unless they themselves are no longer intoxicated. I'm not saying that alcohol should not be consumed. i was merely trying to say that the use of the mircale at the wedding of Cana, as an argument to weather alcohol is a sin or not is a weak one for the above reasons. Please correct me if i am wrong Abouna and pray for me.
I think you are assuming that people who drink alcohol must get drunk.
As far as I can see, there is no reason why the guests at the wedding feast in Cana should have all been so drunk that they were unable to tell the difference in the quality of wine.
I think we might assume that the wedding which our Lord attended would have been one of devout Jewish people who would not have wished to drink so much wine that they became drunk. In my reading of the passage the speaker is speaking generally. If I was at a BBQ and we had all had a burger and some kebabs and then the host brought out something amazing, I might say 'Usually when everyone is completely stuffed with food the host brings out the really rubbish sausages, but you have saved the best food till last'. It would not mean absolutely that everyone there had eaten as much as they physically could, it would rather be drawing attention to the fact that the host has 'saved the best till last'. I understand John 2:10 to be written in the same way. If we want to say that everyone was too drunk to be able to tell the difference between the wines then how was anyone sober enough to speak to Christ? And if they were sobering up because they were drinking grape juice then why were they not sober enough to complain that in fact they were not being offered wine at all? Why would it not be wine? We are told not to get drunk, not commanded never to drink alcohol. And it can be shown that even in Egyptian history alcoholic wine was well known and used. If it were not so then certain of the Fathers would not have counselled abstinence.
I do not see how the beverage could be called wine if it were not fermented and therefore alcoholic. The process of de-alcoholising wine was not known until recent times. Also early canons are clear that grape juice might only be used in exceptional and emergency situations. Such canons would not have been made if all of the wine used in the eucharist was ordinarily non-alcoholic. Even in the deserts raisins would be allowed to ferment for a minimal period so that the liquid used in the eucharist was in some sense wine rather than grape juice.
We can be sure that the consumption of wine is not a sin in itself any more than the consumption of food. Yet both can become the sin of drunkenness and gluttony. The scripture contains injunctions to St Timothy to drink a little wine, and to the disciples to eat food, which show that it is not these things in themselves that can be considered sinful but the use we put them to.
This is not to be taken as an encouragement for anyone to drink alcohol, but generally speaking it is not generally a sin to drink a little wine since history itself shows to us that Orthodox Christians have drunk alcoholic wine and allowed its consumption throughout the ages, but in any particular Orthodox Christian's life it might be a sin which is why the advice of a spiritual father is necessary. It may well be that many might choose not to consume any alcoholic drinks at all, and also to habitually abstain from certain foods, but in these matters we are best served by speaking to our own spiritual fathers, who know our own circumstances, and are best placed to provide personal advice to us. This is an issue where one absolute rule is not appropriate.
Even having written the above, it might well be that in conversation with my own spiritual flock I will suggest that this one not consume any alcohol, this one consume less than they are, and tell another that their moderate consumption is not the main issue they need to focus on. If someone says 'I must have an alcoholic drink, then they most need to abstain'. But someone who had a glass of wine once or twice a month does not appear to me to be committing a sin, speaking without knowing any particular circumstances.
My issue is not with the reasonable encouragement to abstinence, but what I consider to be a rewriting of Coptic history to exclude alcoholic wine. I have seen just the same thing in the Protestant circles I grew up in. There are good reasons not to consume alcohol socially, I think these should be allowed to stand on their own.
Thank you for joining the conversation, you bring alot of clarity to these forums.
Do you know why there is an instruction to the deaconate to never drink alcohol?
My other question is more off topic and I'll be happy to open a new thread for it if you think the answer and/or discussion is too involved. Is there danger in putting all sin under the title of idolatry? or a similar question (for similar reasons) Is there danger in calling all sin devil worship? My concern is that hating one thing too much puts that thing at the center of a person's life . . .
My other question is more off topic and I'll be happy to open a new thread for it if you think the answer and/or discussion is too involved. Is there danger in putting all sin under the title of idolatry? or a similar question (for similar reasons) Is there danger in calling all sin devil worship? My concern is that hating one thing too much puts that thing at the center of a person's life . . .
Just a side note, I did not mean what you have just said. Undoubtably sin is turning away from God and a break in that relationship, but I did not say that all sin is devil worship. I did not mean that all sin is idolatry, but that idolatry is a type of sin and that we should look beyond the literal meaning in the Bible to include the spiritual application in our own lives.
I have heard (and possibly read, I don't remember) from some church fathers/clergy the same words I am telling you--just so you know I did not make it up. Additionally, I have seen it in my own life, which is why I feel so strongly about it. If I find some kind of reference for you, I will post it.
[quote author=peterfarrington link=topic=7874.msg103754#msg103754 date=1244038824] I think we might assume that the wedding which our Lord attended would have been one of devout Jewish people who would not have wished to drink so much wine that they became drunk.
Father Peter,
The Bible doesn't mention that our Lord drank wine. So he could have abstained from it completely (plus I dont think it would make much sense that He would drink wine as the Perfect Role Model).
Regarding the question about whether alcohol is permitted or not, let us remember that All things are pure for those who are pure (lol including alcohol).
And dumdum is going to kill us again for changing the subject (has anyone noticed that this always happens when dumdum asks questions.. it always drifts to something else :P ) I would have agree with everyone else and say it's not a sin to shop at a liquor store ;D
Well this is what Anba Youssef says: In the miracle at the wedding of Cana of Galilee, the Holy Bible does not mention that our Lord drank wine. As for the Holy Gospel of St. Luke 7:34 Jesus did not say "a glutton and a winebibber" about himself. These were false accusations by the Pharisees. Christ was comparing His life with that of St. John the Baptist. Our Lord lived an ordinary life in the city, while St. John lived in the wilderness eating locusts and wild honey. The very same men that had depicted St. John the Baptist as wild, because he came neither eating nor drinking, had also unjustly depicted our Lord Jesus as corrupt in his morals, because He came eating and drinking with sinners.
Regarding the Church’s viewpoint in relation to alcohol drinking; the Church does not say drinking alcohol is sinful but the abuse of alcohol is sinful. Although this is the position of the church, it advocates complete abstinence from drinking because the possibility of abuse is usually very high.
I am not sure that makes sense if Christ never drank wine? St Cyril agrees that Christ occasionally allowed himself a 'luxurious' meal, which would allow those who had no insight into His holy heart to say he was a glutton. If he never drank any wine I am not sure how they would be able to say he was a winebibber? He would surely have said, 'but like John I have never touched wine'. It seems to me the whole force of the passage is that John lived in the desert, ate sparingly and drank no wine, while Jesus tended to live with men, ate at banquets and probably drank wine as most Jews would have done. This is surely only a problem if we consider any alcohol consumption a sin?
I do agree that the consumption of alcohol should not be encouraged but I am not sure that I agree that it should be treated as though anyone who drinks any alcohol will fall into sin.
I do not see the Church teaching a complete abstinence from the TV and Internet, and I think that probably these two are much more dangerous to spiritual health. I am afraid that I am coming over as an advocate of drinking, which I am not at all, but I do wish us to have a mature view of all those things which are around us. It is a matter of fact, as far as I can see, that even clergy and bishops consumed alcohol in the 19th century, and in almost all other Orthodox churches still do (see several of the accounts of Western visitors to Egypt during that period). This does not take away the value of abstinence, and we can find many of the Fathers urging such, but it does seem to me that we must be true to history. As I have said in many other threads, my concern is that we do not make the spiritual life a list of things we do and don't do, but that we understand that the spiritual life is a journey towards God, and each of us, with our spiritual fathers, must seek to be moving forward, and not allow ourselves to be held back by lesser attachments. Even the desire for a 'proper spiritual life' can become just such an attachment which prevents us moving forward because we think that progress in the spiritual life is in our own hands. The spiritual father helps us move forwards with humility because we do not judge ourselves - I have stopped drinking any alcohol so I am spiritual - and he says - deal with your laziness and we will deal with your moderate consumption of alcohol later.
To put the lust for food and drink in context I recommend highly a read of this short text by St Philoxenus... I think a discussion of abstinence in regard to wine needs to be put in the wider context of all of our appetites, since for many a very moderate consumption of wine is perhaps the least of their problems, but if it is presented as the worst then they may well ignore other more serious lusts for other foods and drinks. St Philoxenus describes how even cold water or lentils can become the object of lust. Do read this text.
Comments
Jesus answered them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin"
24 “No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon."
He who refuses to give into passions does the same as he who refuses to bow down and worship idols.
Whoever gives into sin is a slave of sin (not idols)
You can't serve God and mammon is a reference to idolatry because Jesus is speaking of having high devotion (lit. "serving") money. This is in fact a perfect verse to illustrate my point I have (some) money, yet my life doesn't revolve around it therefore I don't idolize money. How is drinking in moderation not exactly the same. Yes if a person's entire day revolved around getting drunk every night, if the main reason for that person to work was to make money to buy alcohol, then I would agree that that person is idolizing alcohol. I repeat drinking in moderation is not idolatry and I assert that even drunkenness is not idolatry. Drunkenness is a sin because it violates God's word and it defiles his immage in us, not because it is somehow idolatry.
I'm pretty sure Theophan the recluse is referring to the same concept as James 2:10 "For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all."
the_least,
It would be very kind of you to answer my question. What is your criteria for calling something an idol?
George
don't give up serving, you have no idea how many people need your inspiration and the wisdom God gives you. keep asking, keep seeking and God will give you and your spiritual fathers guidance.
Your compassion is inspiring. Somehow you reminded me that it doesn't really matter who is right or wrong on technical matters as long as we all rely on God as our true source of grace and wisdom.
God provided us with an immeasurable variety of things to enjoy. If He really wants fermented grapes to be one of those things I'll leave that up to Him.
God Bless,
George
There is no hallal or haram (clean or unclean) anymore, we are above that level of material and physical laws (to an extent at least)...
I think as Christians we are not bound by a list of things that are allowed or not allowed, we have to look beyond that, our goal is Christ for He is the Life, He is also the Way, the Truth, in Him, by Him we reach Life...
As long as we put our will and our spirit under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, then I believe we 'feel' what's right and what's wrong, it's like when you get burnt by something hot, you automatically pull your hand away from the source of the heat since your nerves send a signal to your brain to do so... This way also Christians who are serious abt following God have a built in 'voice of God' or maybe one can refer to it as 'conscience under divine control' that tells us and gives us a signal when something is not ok...
I once had a huge dilemma, and it was a matter that kept me restless for over a year, I couldn't figure out the will of God, and someone gave me this great piece of advice: Don't look at the outside, the circumstances, etc. Rather look INSIDE, in your heart, that's where God will communicate with you and let you know His will...
So when it comes to alcohol, I personally believe there is nothing wrong with the substance itself (not like with smoking which is in itself a damaging activity), but, like anything, it has to be done in moderation...
Drinking alcohol, does not, in my opinion, mean you're walking on the edge and taking a risk, one should have some self-knowledge and estimate themselves correctly. If you are an occasional drinker, who knows his/her limit and who doesn't drink for the wrong reasons, then I don't see any risk in that...
This does not imply you're arrogant, it simply implies you know your weaknesses, and drinking is not one of them... If someone knows that going on the net is too great of a temptation for them and they know they won't resist the temptation to visit certain sites, then it might be best for them, knowing themselves to refrain from using the net without supervision or at certain times etc. but that doesn't mean that just going on the net in itself is a risk, otherwise we would all be 'walking on the edge', each one has his/her weaknesses, but not all have the same weaknesses, self-knowledge is essential here...
And just as chocolate tastes sweet and is enjoyable, yet not a sin, so also, the fact that a nice glass of red wine can be enjoyable is not a criterium for it to make it a sin...
I think we need to look at it like this: the OT, we were like little children who needed all these rules, yet now, in the NT, we have grown up to an extent where we can define for ourselves (again, to a certain extent of course) what is right and what is not... All of this through the Grace of God and with the guidance of the Holy Spirit...
Gb
If someone knows that going on the net is too great of a temptation for them and they know they won't resist the temptation to visit certain sites, then it might be best for them, knowing themselves to refrain from using the net without supervision or at certain times etc. but that doesn't mean that just going on the net in itself is a risk, otherwise we would all be 'walking on the edge',
No, because as i mentioned before to QT on this forum, some things we have to do, for good reasons (ie. internet) there are other things that we don't have to do (ie. drinking). both of these things are dangerous, meaning they make us more vulnerable for the devil to attack us; however, if there is something that we don't have to do and it will not benefit us in any way, why do it?
I asked this question before and no one answered it. Maybe you can provide an answer.
[quote author=the_least link=topic=7874.msg102271#msg102271 date=1240704223]
please, tell me exactly the reason you do it. why can't you just have a nice cold non-alcoholic drink and walk in the middle of the bridge rather than risking it and walking on the very edge. it just doesn't make sense.
Godislove260, after reading your post, i went to the suscopts website to check if Anba Youssef wrote anything about this and i found out that he did. It's right here.
GArgiriadis,
[quote author=GArgiriadis link=topic=7874.msg103681#msg103681 date=1243886563]
I repeat drinking in moderation is not idolatry
i never said it is and neither did anyone on this forum. all i said to QT was that resorting to it instead of God to "wind down" is.
[quote author=GArgiriadis link=topic=7874.msg103681#msg103681 date=1243886563]
What is your criteria for calling something an idol?
i will let someone wiser than me provide you with an answer seeing as you did not agree with the answers i gave to QT.
[quote author=the_least link=topic=7874.msg103680#msg103680 date=1243885225]
St. Theophan the Recluse
He who refuses to give into passions does the same as he who refuses to bow down and worship idols.
I'm pretty sure Theophan the recluse is referring to the same concept as James 2:10 "For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all."
i don't think so
Since you'd rather not answer my first question we may as well move on . . .
What do you think Theophan the recluse meant?
[quote author=GArgiriadis link=topic=7874.msg103681#msg103681 date=1243886563]
What is your criteria for calling something an idol?
i will let someone wiser than me provide you with an answer seeing as you did not agree with the answers i gave to QT.
Who do you suppose is wise enough to give me your opinion.
It's right here.
Indeed it is.
"If you cannot discern what is and is not enough while drinking, . . . "
[quote author=the_least link=topic=7874.msg103698#msg103698 date=1243898933]
[quote author=GArgiriadis link=topic=7874.msg103681#msg103681 date=1243886563]
What is your criteria for calling something an idol?
i will let someone wiser than me provide you with an answer seeing as you did not agree with the answers i gave to QT.
Who do you suppose is wise enough to give me your opinion.
Please refrain from the sarcasm.
i already said my opinion to QT, and you did not agree. Why do you want me to say it again?
What you seem to be going at is that some people believe that they can discern. let me warn you, never say "I can" but rather what God has allowed me to do.
forgive me, but i think this thought of "I can" is from the devil.
Godislove260, you mentioned something about self-knowledge. i think you should be more knowledgeable of your weaknesses rather than your strengths because our strength comes from God alone. "But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ" (Galations 6:14). "Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me" (2 Corinthians 12:9) "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast" (Ephesians 2:8-9) I think self-knowledge should equal humility.
'Know thyself': this is true humility, the humility that teaches us to be inwardly humble and makes our heart contrite. Such humility you must cultivate and guard. For if you do not yet know yourself you cannot know what humility is, and have not yet embarked truly on the task of cultivating and guarding. To know oneself is the goal of the practice of the virtues. (Nikitas Stithatos in The Philokalia, Vol. 4)
If you think you can discern, consider this: "Humility is the only thing we need; one can still fall having virtues other than humility -- but with humility one does not fall." (St. Benedict)
pray for my many weaknesses
What do you think Theophan the recluse meant?
I think he meant exactly what User00 said,
[quote author=user00 link=topic=7874.msg103636#msg103636 date=1243743770]
In the OT, it's true that idols referred to stone objects of worship. Now obviously most people today don't worship such things, but many are still idolaters. Idols can include money, other people, one's own self,work, school, career, material objects like a car, jewelry. I like the way the least defined an idol as anything or anyone that takes the place of God in your life.
So what does that mean? That means that it is the center of your life. That means that it consumes your thoughts, you live your life with it in mind, and basically it's the most important thing in the world to you. Even other people can be idols. Remember Christ said "Whoever loves sister, mother, children, spouse, etc. more than Me is not worthy of Me".
Idolatry, almost most people wouldn't admit it or recognize it, is very common. I think that if there was no idolatry in your heart, then you would be fully faithful to God and never sin—which doesn't really happen (except I guess with the saints—but even they struggle). So it's something we struggle against—but ya, idolatry is something we need to beware of. It's it's more important (and be honest with yourself) to you than God, it's an idol.
[quote author=the_least link=topic=7874.msg103647#msg103647 date=1243815451]
John 8:34
Jesus answered them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin"
Whoever gives into sin is a slave of sin (not idols)
In this verse, the sin is the idol. that is because it is saying that you are a slave to it. A slave is one who serves or worships. And if you're worshiping sin - or rather just committing sin like the verse tells us - the sin is your idol.
and the same goes for this verse: Matthew 6:24 that User00 provided. The purpose of providing this verse is to illustrate that idols can be materialistic things like money. That's all.
keep me in your prayers
also, Can someone please provide GArgiriadis with an answer to his question: "What is the criteria for calling something an idol?"
If a person wants to really determine what their center is, they need to analyze what they are thinking at times when they need to make a decision. For example, a man goes out to buy a car. If he selects a really expensive car because he wants to look cool, his center may be either himself or his self image in front of others or maybe pride. If he buys a really expensive car just to outdo some guy at the office, that guy may be his center. If that same person buys a minivan so he can take his family on road trips he may be family centered. If he buys a minivan so he can carry work materials from one place to another he might be work centered.
Everyone ought to be watchful and frequently ask themselves what is really at their center. I'm saying that if there is any common theme in your decision making other than God, you might be in some trouble because that thing, weather you like it or not, may be your center.
You can be centered on idols without liking them just like the fictional car buyer I mentionned can have a coworker at his center without liking him. If you consider every sin to be idolatry and idolatry comes up over and over every day, and is a major agent in your decision making then you may be in a very dangerous place because you may have idols at your center.
George
thanks and continue to pray for me
You can buy a car. But your car is not necessarily an idol. It would be a idol if you thought about it all day, spent all your money fixing it up with expensive, extraneous features, and loved it more than anything else in life.
Now do you see my (and "the least"'s) point?
[quote author=Godislove_ link=topic=7874.msg102218#msg102218 date=1240521607]
I do believe that God Himself changed water into ALCOHOLIC wine at the wedding of Cana. I know it was wine that was alcoholic, as if it wasn't wine it would have been called grape juice or ribena.
I preety sure QT_PA_2A thats it WAS NOT ALCOHOLIC wine at the wedding of Cana, and several preists have confirmed this to me. I don't know who would tell you otherwise???
It seems to me to be clear that throughout much of Egyptian history people were drinking real alcoholic wine and it was certainly being used in the communion. There are even instructions as to how wine was to be made in the desert by the monks from fermented raisins. There may be reasons why this should be a matter of controversy now, but it seems to me that there is rather an unnecessary fear of alcoholic beverages, rather than the misuse of them.
Personally I would find it rather shocking not to use wine in the communion. It seems to me to be canonically required. And as far as my own sources go I understand that wine was always used in Coptic Orthodox communion until quite recently.
Throughout the scriptures alcoholic wine is referred to in Psalms and songs in the sense of something which is a means of joy, as well as a means of drunkenness. But this should not be surprising. It is possible to both use and misuse all of the gifts of God. It does concern me a little when we develop a puritanical streak that almost denies any enjoyment in the world. It seems to me it is difficult to stop the slippery slope of judging one another when once we start.
As far as I can see all the other Orthodox Churches allow a moderate use of alcohol, therefore we must be a little careful not to elevate the present response to alcohol in the Coptic Church to an absolute command.
Father Peter
But i was told that it was non alcoholic because as they drank they they sobered up and said:
John 2:10 And he said to him, “Every man at the beginning sets out the good wine, and when the guests have well drunk, then the inferior. You have kept the good wine until now!”
I do not think that a person who is intoxicated could tell the difference between between good and bad wine unless they themselves are no longer intoxicated.
I'm not saying that alcohol should not be consumed. i was merely trying to say that the use of the mircale at the wedding of Cana, as an argument to weather alcohol is a sin or not is a weak one for the above reasons.
Please correct me if i am wrong Abouna and pray for me.
As far as I can see, there is no reason why the guests at the wedding feast in Cana should have all been so drunk that they were unable to tell the difference in the quality of wine.
I think we might assume that the wedding which our Lord attended would have been one of devout Jewish people who would not have wished to drink so much wine that they became drunk. In my reading of the passage the speaker is speaking generally. If I was at a BBQ and we had all had a burger and some kebabs and then the host brought out something amazing, I might say 'Usually when everyone is completely stuffed with food the host brings out the really rubbish sausages, but you have saved the best food till last'. It would not mean absolutely that everyone there had eaten as much as they physically could, it would rather be drawing attention to the fact that the host has 'saved the best till last'. I understand John 2:10 to be written in the same way. If we want to say that everyone was too drunk to be able to tell the difference between the wines then how was anyone sober enough to speak to Christ? And if they were sobering up because they were drinking grape juice then why were they not sober enough to complain that in fact they were not being offered wine at all? Why would it not be wine? We are told not to get drunk, not commanded never to drink alcohol. And it can be shown that even in Egyptian history alcoholic wine was well known and used. If it were not so then certain of the Fathers would not have counselled abstinence.
I do not see how the beverage could be called wine if it were not fermented and therefore alcoholic. The process of de-alcoholising wine was not known until recent times. Also early canons are clear that grape juice might only be used in exceptional and emergency situations. Such canons would not have been made if all of the wine used in the eucharist was ordinarily non-alcoholic. Even in the deserts raisins would be allowed to ferment for a minimal period so that the liquid used in the eucharist was in some sense wine rather than grape juice.
We can be sure that the consumption of wine is not a sin in itself any more than the consumption of food. Yet both can become the sin of drunkenness and gluttony. The scripture contains injunctions to St Timothy to drink a little wine, and to the disciples to eat food, which show that it is not these things in themselves that can be considered sinful but the use we put them to.
This is not to be taken as an encouragement for anyone to drink alcohol, but generally speaking it is not generally a sin to drink a little wine since history itself shows to us that Orthodox Christians have drunk alcoholic wine and allowed its consumption throughout the ages, but in any particular Orthodox Christian's life it might be a sin which is why the advice of a spiritual father is necessary. It may well be that many might choose not to consume any alcoholic drinks at all, and also to habitually abstain from certain foods, but in these matters we are best served by speaking to our own spiritual fathers, who know our own circumstances, and are best placed to provide personal advice to us. This is an issue where one absolute rule is not appropriate.
Even having written the above, it might well be that in conversation with my own spiritual flock I will suggest that this one not consume any alcohol, this one consume less than they are, and tell another that their moderate consumption is not the main issue they need to focus on. If someone says 'I must have an alcoholic drink, then they most need to abstain'. But someone who had a glass of wine once or twice a month does not appear to me to be committing a sin, speaking without knowing any particular circumstances.
My issue is not with the reasonable encouragement to abstinence, but what I consider to be a rewriting of Coptic history to exclude alcoholic wine. I have seen just the same thing in the Protestant circles I grew up in. There are good reasons not to consume alcohol socially, I think these should be allowed to stand on their own.
Father Peter
Thank you for joining the conversation, you bring alot of clarity to these forums.
Do you know why there is an instruction to the deaconate to never drink alcohol?
My other question is more off topic and I'll be happy to open a new thread for it if you think the answer and/or discussion is too involved. Is there danger in putting all sin under the title of idolatry? or a similar question (for similar reasons) Is there danger in calling all sin devil worship? My concern is that hating one thing too much puts that thing at the center of a person's life . . .
Thank you,
George
My other question is more off topic and I'll be happy to open a new thread for it if you think the answer and/or discussion is too involved. Is there danger in putting all sin under the title of idolatry? or a similar question (for similar reasons) Is there danger in calling all sin devil worship? My concern is that hating one thing too much puts that thing at the center of a person's life . . .
Just a side note, I did not mean what you have just said. Undoubtably sin is turning away from God and a break in that relationship, but I did not say that all sin is devil worship. I did not mean that all sin is idolatry, but that idolatry is a type of sin and that we should look beyond the literal meaning in the Bible to include the spiritual application in our own lives.
I have heard (and possibly read, I don't remember) from some church fathers/clergy the same words I am telling you--just so you know I did not make it up. Additionally, I have seen it in my own life, which is why I feel so strongly about it. If I find some kind of reference for you, I will post it.
I think we might assume that the wedding which our Lord attended would have been one of devout Jewish people who would not have wished to drink so much wine that they became drunk.
Father Peter,
The Bible doesn't mention that our Lord drank wine. So he could have abstained from it completely (plus I dont think it would make much sense that He would drink wine as the Perfect Role Model).
Regarding the question about whether alcohol is permitted or not, let us remember that All things are pure for those who are pure (lol including alcohol).
And dumdum is going to kill us again for changing the subject (has anyone noticed that this always happens when dumdum asks questions.. it always drifts to something else :P ) I would have agree with everyone else and say it's not a sin to shop at a liquor store ;D
Peace.
Luke 7 describes Christ in relation to John the Baptist.
Of John it is said..
John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, He hath a devil.
and then Christ describe shimself in opposite terms..
The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!
If our Lord did not drink wine then it does not make any sense that he would say people were calling him a winebibber, or drinker of wine.
We know that there were times when he fasted strictly, but it seems that he also enjoyed food and drank wine without sin.
Father Peter
In the miracle at the wedding of Cana of Galilee, the Holy Bible does not mention that our Lord drank wine. As for the Holy Gospel of St. Luke 7:34 Jesus did not say "a glutton and a winebibber" about himself. These were false accusations by the Pharisees. Christ was comparing His life with that of St. John the Baptist. Our Lord lived an ordinary life in the city, while St. John lived in the wilderness eating locusts and wild honey. The very same men that had depicted St. John the Baptist as wild, because he came neither eating nor drinking, had also unjustly depicted our Lord Jesus as corrupt in his morals, because He came eating and drinking with sinners.
Regarding the Church’s viewpoint in relation to alcohol drinking; the Church does not say drinking alcohol is sinful but the abuse of alcohol is sinful. Although this is the position of the church, it advocates complete abstinence from drinking because the possibility of abuse is usually very high.
I do agree that the consumption of alcohol should not be encouraged but I am not sure that I agree that it should be treated as though anyone who drinks any alcohol will fall into sin.
I do not see the Church teaching a complete abstinence from the TV and Internet, and I think that probably these two are much more dangerous to spiritual health. I am afraid that I am coming over as an advocate of drinking, which I am not at all, but I do wish us to have a mature view of all those things which are around us. It is a matter of fact, as far as I can see, that even clergy and bishops consumed alcohol in the 19th century, and in almost all other Orthodox churches still do (see several of the accounts of Western visitors to Egypt during that period). This does not take away the value of abstinence, and we can find many of the Fathers urging such, but it does seem to me that we must be true to history. As I have said in many other threads, my concern is that we do not make the spiritual life a list of things we do and don't do, but that we understand that the spiritual life is a journey towards God, and each of us, with our spiritual fathers, must seek to be moving forward, and not allow ourselves to be held back by lesser attachments. Even the desire for a 'proper spiritual life' can become just such an attachment which prevents us moving forward because we think that progress in the spiritual life is in our own hands. The spiritual father helps us move forwards with humility because we do not judge ourselves - I have stopped drinking any alcohol so I am spiritual - and he says - deal with your laziness and we will deal with your moderate consumption of alcohol later.
To put the lust for food and drink in context I recommend highly a read of this short text by St Philoxenus... I think a discussion of abstinence in regard to wine needs to be put in the wider context of all of our appetites, since for many a very moderate consumption of wine is perhaps the least of their problems, but if it is presented as the worst then they may well ignore other more serious lusts for other foods and drinks. St Philoxenus describes how even cold water or lentils can become the object of lust. Do read this text.
http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/philoxenus_discourse11.htm
Father Peter