I am the finder of a loop hole in our faith!

edited December 1969 in Faith Issues
If God loved us then why is it that he put us on Earth?

He knows what our futhur outcomes are - either heaven or hell etc. so why force us through the suffering? And for those who are going to hell, why create them in the first place if he knows that they would fail and perish in the eternal fire?

Furthermore, what love is in forcing 'his children' through the suffering of the World and all the strict Christian laws, if three-quarters of them are to be boiled in burning sulphur for eternity?

Personally, I am of the same faith as most of you but I am wondering about this. I am not proud about my 'discovery' but I would like to know that this is a simple false alarm.

-hiccup-

Thanks!

Comments

  • God created human beings with free will, He doesn't force us to suffer, since with our free will we can choose to follow Him and then all the so called 'suffering' (as in worldly suffering) will be bearing the cross with Jesus to feel His strength and love and comfort..
    So if you choose for God, you choose to spend your time on earth enjoying Him and feeling His love, and after you finish your earthly life, you can spend eternity enjoying being in the present of our merciful and just Lord..

    God created humanity, and although He knew that many would choose the wrong way, He still gave them the chance, to experience, to exist, to choose... He also knew that many would follow Him, and He wanted to give His love, to the extent that He gave Himself for humanity.

    So out of God's love and generosity, He created us, so that we as existant beings, could enjoy Him, yet sadly, we resist the work of His Holy Spirit in us, and repay His love and sacrifice with pride and stubbornness...

    Yet He still gives us the chance, leaves us the freedom and keeps knocking on the door...

    God bless you
    Please pray for my weakness
  • God could have created robots to say yes to everything He said, but instead He gave us a choice so we can have a two-way relationship. yes, there is much suffering on earth, but there is also much joy.
    we are all sinners. all He asks is that we keep trying to follow Him (as revealed in His word and His church) and believe in His awesome sacrifice and then we are not going to 'burn in hell'.
    as Godislove260 says, He keeps 'knocking at the door', revealing Himself in creation, the love of those around us, and, most importantly in the joyous life, painful death and glorious resurrection of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
    look at an orchid; He's beautiful,
    look at the lightning; He's powerful,
    look at an artichoke; he has a great sense of humour!
    what an awesome God we serve  :)
  • Going along with what has already been said, God created humans out of his love and placed them "in the Paradise of Joy". He gave us of the Tree of Life to eat and He walked with us Himself. God did not choose suffering for us-- as we say in the Gregorian Liturgy " I have plucked for myself the sentence of death". As it says in Romans 6:23, the "wage of sin is death" and thus we had to die an everlasting death (2 deaths including our physical death). But God still loved us although we messed up which is why He died in our stead.

    Rereading your question, in the Gregorian liturgy also, there is a dialogue with God saying "For my sake you have bound the sea, created the land for me to walk on, put all things under my feet, and have not left me in need of the works of Your honor...).

    In St. John's Epistle, he says "His commandments are not burdensome". This is true. A person who sees Christianity as a bunch of strict laws has not known Christ or "tasted and seen that the Lord is sweet". Life with Christ is beautiful on Earth and In eternity. If it were not so, why would St. George have endured 7 years of various tortures and failed attempts of execution? Because what can separate us from the love of Christ?

    Also as mentioned previously, God gives us a chance to choose life or death. He even said that in Deuteronomy, He said" I have put before you the way of life and the way of death; choose life". So he gave us free will and told us what the right answer is. In other words, he gave us the reward, but we did not appreciate it so he gave us a test and told us all the correct answers. It's up to us to listen to the correct answers (it's not cheating  :)).
  • sorry to burst your bubble friend, you definitely have not made a discovery, :p it's a question that humans have pondered for ages, but the answer is simple you just have to believe it.
    IT's exactly what everyone above me said; and we DO NOT believe in predestination, God has not predestined your fate, but yes, he is all knowing.  It takes quite a person to truly understand that, and i would explain further, but i myself don't understand fully, so i just believe it.  I posted a bulletin asking about the whole how can we have free will  but God be all knowing thing , and i got some fantastic answers, you might wanna check it out. 
  • God's all knowing nature doesn't interfere with your free will.  there is no such thing as forced loved, otherwise it wouldn't be really love.  true love is the freedom to chose.  i'm pretty sure that if you were forced into a marriage,with someone you don't want to marry, then you wouldn't automatically love that person (maybe later on you might) i think godislove as well as others gave you great answers, so i wouldn't be really adding much to what they already said. 

    peace and god bless


  • The question as to why God created us only to see us die and live in war and anger with one another is all answered by the question of the free will. The ingredient in the creation that led to all these problems.

    God's plan for us was NOT what we are living now. We chose this option over what He offered us: Life with Him in His image and likeness.

    When man disobeyed God, everything went pear shaped.

    Food didnt taste as good.

    Is it God's fault that man was created with Free will? The will to either sin or not sin?

    On the other hand, what I can say about God, and one thing that I realised tremendously after Sunday's mass is that we have a brilliant God. One who truley is interested in the return of the sinner above all things.

    We have a God that not only sees sin as bad for us, and something that separates us from Him, but He is a God that actually tries hard to cure us from this illness called sin. This spiritual death that we refer to as sin is constantly remedied in the Church.

    So, in all this, where is God to be blamed?

    Its like you take your Dad's car to go out and play with your friends. You get lost in the middle of nowhere and you are tired, sick and without money. Your dad then comes to find you in the middle of the night to rescue you. The FIRST thing you have to say to your dad is "WHY DID YOU BUY A CAR FOR!!!"

    Do you think that this is a fair response???

    Surely some may blame God for giving us the free will to actually sin against Him and hurt ourselves, but at the very least wouldnt you agree that He deserves a BIG HUGE "THANK YOU" for being patient with us and coming to save us from the calamity of our own foolish and ignorant driven free will??



  • [quote author=epshiri link=topic=7789.msg101462#msg101462 date=1238595010]
    If God loved us then why is it that he put us on Earth?

    He knows what our futhur outcomes are - either heaven or hell etc. so why force us through the suffering? And for those who are going to hell, why create them in the first place if he knows that they would fail and perish in the eternal fire?

    Furthermore, what love is in forcing 'his children' through the suffering of the World and all the strict Christian laws, if three-quarters of them are to be boiled in burning sulphur for eternity?

    Personally, I am of the same faith as most of you but I am wondering about this. I am not proud about my 'discovery' but I would like to know that this is a simple false alarm.

    -hiccup-

    Thanks!




    This is a very good question my friend. It seems that some were chosen to go to hell and some to heaven, written in the book of life. Is this really fair? Hmm...
  • [quote author=Hailemikael link=topic=7789.msg101580#msg101580 date=1239034127]
    [quote author=epshiri link=topic=7789.msg101462#msg101462 date=1238595010]
    If God loved us then why is it that he put us on Earth?

    He knows what our futhur outcomes are - either heaven or hell etc. so why force us through the suffering? And for those who are going to hell, why create them in the first place if he knows that they would fail and perish in the eternal fire?

    Furthermore, what love is in forcing 'his children' through the suffering of the World and all the strict Christian laws, if three-quarters of them are to be boiled in burning sulphur for eternity?

    Personally, I am of the same faith as most of you but I am wondering about this. I am not proud about my 'discovery' but I would like to know that this is a simple false alarm.

    -hiccup-

    Thanks!




    This is a very good question my friend. It seems that some were chosen to go to hell and some to heaven, written in the book of life. Is this really fair? Hmm...


    No one was predestined for anything, we don't believe in this teaching that your life is already determined before you live it and you can't escape what's been predestined!
    God KNOWS what you're going to choose, since He's omniscient and sees all things at the same time...
    However He does NOT DETERMINE what you're going to choose!


    Thus it is completely fair since whether you live or die is a choice you make, a choice to accept God's salvation or not!

    God bless us all and strengthen our faith


  • I agree you have not found a loop hole!
    there is a little saying
    that goes like this......
    "IF ITS TO BE ITS UP TO ME!"
    every one is given freedom
    by there own will the can choose their destiny
    they can choose their career in life...
    every one can choose their faith...
    but most people do search for the truth.....
    that is why there are alot of people in the Arab world who are realizing that the Islam faith was deceiving them from the love of the Son of Man
    and thousands are converting to christianity......
    it is a true blessing to be born into christ, and knowing how much he loved us.... Just imagine this every time you commit a sin its the same as you getting the wipe with spikes on it and casting into jesus.... every time we sin this is what we do to christ!
  • in the book "Ultimate Things" Dennis Engleman goes into detail as to this very same question. there are many writings of monks and church fathers that detail that God is replacing the fallen angles, the two thirds of heaven, with mankind. when an angel sins there is no repentance for them as when a human sins it is because of this flesh and our fallen nature and we ARE able to gain repentance. i suggest that you discuss matters such as this with your priest as you will have one on one and much more in depth than here.
  • When god put us on Earth he knew what would happen to each of us, however it is like reading a business card; you can't affect what it says but you know what it says.
  • I am addressing an issue that was mentioned earlier about "Predestiney". Now this issue has MANY problems concerning our faith and i will just address a few quick ones and i hope it helps out in some small way:

    1)This would mean God is NOT good but evil since he created man to suffer. This is so because He would have willed for such and such people to be far from Him. This would mean that it is His will tht many spend their lives in Prodigal living chasing after the things of this world. We know however that all of this is GARBAGE!!!!! If this was true WHY WHY WHY would He send His Son to be mocked, spat on, humiliated and crucified???? Please just think about that for one second. The devil will never stop implanting new thoughts into our head and we MUST realize our weakness! We must pray as it says in the Gosple according to St.Mark "Lord I believe but help my unbelief."

    2) Now another issue with this is that it COMPLETELY erases any trace of man's freewill. ALL the books of the Bible bear witness to this. There is always the will of God which Holy is merciful and we ALWAYS see the contradicting and self-loving will of man there as well. Why would God "Predetermine" that our will go against His??? This is alone goes against logic.

    3) Lastly if things were "Predetermined" we would as someone mentioned before ONLY robots programmed (which is EXACTLY what predetermination is). This would mean that love can not exsist in the world since there is no free choice. This also we know can not be true since God IS love and is the Fountain Head of love.

    Let as always also pray as we say in the Gregorian Liturgy "May the Schisms of the Church cease." and that God may "Strip the vanity of the heretics" who accept the enemy's words joyfully and rely on their own understanding. I hope this helped in any way at all for anyone. Please pray for me my brothers and sisters.

    your servant,
          LOVER
  • epshiri,

    You have not found a 'loop-hole' in the orthodox faith, and you are not bringing up anything that has not been questioned for centuries. Basically no matter how anyone on this forum tries to respond to you their answers cannot be complete, so when you die ask God himself. Remember "God is Love" and everything he does is out of love and because of his love for us. He does want us to suffer and only wants what is best for us which is our salvation. Remember Jeremiah 29:11.

    Peace be with you
  • [quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=7789.msg101570#msg101570 date=1239003133]


    Its like you take your Dad's car to go out and play with your friends. You get lost in the middle of nowhere and you are tired, sick and without money. Your dad then comes to find you in the middle of the night to rescue you. The FIRST thing you have to say to your dad is "WHY DID YOU BUY A CAR FOR!!!"

    Do you think that this is a fair response???

    Surely some may blame God for giving us the free will to actually sin against Him and hurt ourselves, but at the very least wouldnt you agree that He deserves a BIG HUGE "THANK YOU" for being patient with us and coming to save us from the calamity of our own foolish and ignorant driven free will??






    What is this text?

    I din't ask for it.

    It was forced in me... yeah great free will I've got.
  • [quote author=epshiri link=topic=7789.msg103081#msg103081 date=1242218780]
    [quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=7789.msg101570#msg101570 date=1239003133]


    Its like you take your Dad's car to go out and play with your friends. You get lost in the middle of nowhere and you are tired, sick and without money. Your dad then comes to find you in the middle of the night to rescue you. The FIRST thing you have to say to your dad is "WHY DID YOU BUY A CAR FOR!!!"

    Do you think that this is a fair response???

    Surely some may blame God for giving us the free will to actually sin against Him and hurt ourselves, but at the very least wouldnt you agree that He deserves a BIG HUGE "THANK YOU" for being patient with us and coming to save us from the calamity of our own foolish and ignorant driven free will??






    What is this text?

    I din't ask for it.

    It was forced in me... yeah great free will I've got.


    God Loves us, and if he never gave us free will, then it would be like he created a bunch of robots worshipping him. Now he wouldnt want that, and he made this earth to pretty much test our love for him. We are born with sin, and it is OUR free will to act wether to repent of this sin from our father adam, or continue.

    Its plain and simple. These questions have been asked for centuries, and people just want accept the truth.
    Pray for them and for me.
  • [quote author=epshiri link=topic=7789.msg101462#msg101462 date=1238595010]
    If God loved us then why is it that he put us on Earth?

    He knows what our futhur outcomes are - either heaven or hell etc. so why force us through the suffering? And for those who are going to hell, why create them in the first place if he knows that they would fail and perish in the eternal fire?

    Furthermore, what love is in forcing 'his children' through the suffering of the World and all the strict Christian laws, if three-quarters of them are to be boiled in burning sulphur for eternity?

    Personally, I am of the same faith as most of you but I am wondering about this. I am not proud about my 'discovery' but I would like to know that this is a simple false alarm.

    -hiccup-

    Thanks!





    You are the type of person who can't find anything wrong with the faith, but because its laws are too difficult you need to find something wrong, I don't think we should get involved in devil's play.
  • I agree with epshiri. At least to some point.

    I believe God chose our religion to be the 'right' one. But not everything in our religion is the truth. I believe God is above religion. We are also above religion. But we are bound by it for now. That's God's plan.

    Since Adam & Eve, we've been doing God's will, not ours. It might be hard to believe but it is true.
  • On the Contrary Hailemikael, EVeryhting in our orthodox religion is the complete and perfect Truth. If our faith wasnt the truth do you think that it would have lasted this long with this many believers? Do u think that no one in this world for the past 20 centuries would have been smart enough to find some kind of mistake in our dogma? THe answer IS NO. not one person on this earth has and no one will because our faith is the truth.  God loves all and wishes that all be with him in everlasting life.  And because he wants to have a father son father daughter relationship he gave u the frree will and choice to do what u want. He doesnt want somebody to jus sit there and say oh god ur great. He wants somone to love him and someone that he will love as does any other father in this world.  whether a person chooses by HIS OWN WILL to be with his Heavenly Father is their decision but god will not force one to be with him.  I believe, (correct me if im wrong) that god, The Father, The son jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit, is our religion and he's our life. God, The father the son and the Holy Spirit, The trinity is our way of life and our religion. IF god is our religion than we are not above religion because we are not above god. Religion is just a term that we use for the belief in a certain thing.  Our belief in god isnt just a religion but it is a lifestyle. It is Life. IT is hope it is strength it is a light in the midst of this dark world. WE ARE NOT BOUND TO DO anything we do not want to do, if we were bound then adam wouldnt have eaten from the tree, Satan wouldnt have fallen. etc.

    Gods will is the best thing for us and that is why so many people believe in Our Lord and savior Jesus Christ because with him everyhting turns from bitterness into sweet joy.  Because in doing gods will our life becomes not a pointless thing but a enjoyable life on this earth that will lead to an everlasting life with THe LORD in his glorious heavens.

    MAy God enlighten our minds and bless us all and lead us to his kingdom to glorify his Holy name.

    Pray for me.
  • [quote author=Hailemikael link=topic=7789.msg103513#msg103513 date=1243276259]
    I agree with epshiri. At least to some point.

    I believe God chose our religion to be the 'right' one. But not everything in our religion is the truth. I believe God is above religion. We are also above religion. But we are bound by it for now. That's God's plan.

    Since Adam & Eve, we've been doing God's will, not ours. It might be hard to believe but it is true.


    you are defining people who practice the religion not the religion itself. Our Church, Christ's Bride is Perfect.
  • okay...so this is to whoever says that Christianity is a bunch of strict rules and restraints on having a fun life and what not...
    (ps i can't exactly own up to my comment because sometimes i feel the same way but i'm gonna put it out there never the less...)

    Christianity is NOT a strict set of rules at all.
    Yes, it def is the road less traveled, the narrow one and sometimes the more challenging, but once you make the discovery of HEY! i wanna live like this, i shouldn't be forced to...then it all makes sense.
    once you realize that living purely  is the best way to live ...you'll understand Christianity.
    God didn't create "rules" to complicate your life, it's just that he knows best and he knows that you really dont need to experience...uhh..murder, adultery, theft, pagan worship and ect. to be happy...that's not what completes your life and most people regret these things after and God wants to give you a heads up, a warning.....
  • Here's my little two cents:
    image

    The present sufferings of this world are not worth comparing to the glorious riches in the Kingdom of Heaven.

    "For the joy set before him He endured the cross"

    If women know about all the pain and suffering they're going to have to go through in childbirth, then why do they want to get pregnant? Because when the child is born, they forget about all the pain of giving birth, for the joy of being a mother is greater than the suffering.

    Those who go to hell have not taken the medication to live as prescribed by our Lord, by their own choice.
  • God has given us freedom, we have choices, we have to overcome the worst to endure the best. If everyone was given salvation, we would take The Lord for granted.
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