A-Isos Pikhristos?

edited December 1969 in Hymns Discussion
I have heard Ibrahim Ayad and the chorus add an "a" before Isos for the Psalm 150 refrain. I asked about it and someone told me that it changes the following verb to past tense. Thus meaning Jesus Christ "fasted" for us... Does anyone know whether this is true and whether we should add the "a" before Isos? Thank you.

Comments

  • [coptic]Pireferatem`psa pamenrit>
    aha @ vai efouoj pe[/coptic]
    Yes; that is correct
    [coptic]oujai qen `P=[=c[/coptic]
  • if you do not want to add it you can say it (av er nistavin).
  • [quote author=Unworthy1 link=topic=7713.msg100871#msg100871 date=1236621537]
    I have heard Ibrahim Ayad and the chorus add an "a" before Isos for the Psalm 150 refrain. I asked about it and someone told me that it changes the following verb to past tense. Thus meaning Jesus Christ "fasted" for us... Does anyone know whether this is true and whether we should add the "a" before Isos? Thank you.


    Yeah, I heard the same thing. I don't know why he does that. I don't think Mo3alim Ibrahim really understands Coptic anyway.
  • [coptic]Ce kiw]pa;w] - aI=y=c P=,=c oumyi [email protected] ]meu`i je `pcaq Ibrahym ka] `n]metrem`n<ymi ebolhiten ]ermynia[/coptic]
    Yes QT_PA_2T - [coptic]aI=y=c P=,=c [/coptic]is right; I think that cantor Ibrahim understands Coptic through the translation
    [coptic]Gergec - `fnaswpi (afernycteuin) `mmon (auernycteuin)[/coptic]
    Gerges - it will be "[coptic]afernycteuin[/coptic]" rather than "[coptic]auernycteuin[/coptic]"
    [coptic]oujai qen `P=[=c[/coptic]
  • [quote author=ophadece link=topic=7713.msg100914#msg100914 date=1236791857]
    [coptic]Gergec - `fnaswpi (afernycteuin) `mmon (auernycteuin)[/coptic]
    Gerges - it will be "[coptic]afernycteuin[/coptic]" rather than "[coptic]auernycteuin[/coptic]"
    [coptic]oujai qen `P=[=c[/coptic]

    yes, you are right. cuse I wote it in english not in coptic.
  • [quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=7713.msg100913#msg100913 date=1236790868]
    Yeah, I heard the same thing. I don't know why he does that. I don't think Mo3alim Ibrahim really understands Coptic anyway.


    OK so I'm a personal fan of Ibrahim Ayad so im going to have to defend him on this one. I think he would understand coptic since his life is basically alhan and serving with alhan you would think after all these years he would understand it. 
  • Hmm...its funny cos at my church we sing it without the 'A' at the beginning or the 'Af' before the verb. If you translate it that way its really saying:

    Jesus Christ fast for us for forty days and forty nights

    As though it were a request, we are asking Jesus to fast for us for forty days and nights. Is that the official version of the words? If so somebody should probably have officially changed...

    PFM

    Samuel
  • The official i think is A isos, i haven't really heard af, but i hear a isos all the time, when i get a chance, i will check my khedmit el shamas
  • [coptic]`P=[=cnainan pamenrit>
    `mmon - vai ousoft pe @ (I=y=c P=,=c ernycteuin) `fermyneuin an `hli @ pijincahni `mmorvy `fnoi (arinycteuin)[/coptic]
    No - that is wrong; "[coptic]I=y=c P=,=c ernycteuin[/coptic]" doesn't mean anything; the imperative form will be "[coptic]arinycteuin[/coptic]"
    [coptic]vai pe (A I=y=c P=,=c) kata (Apen=[=c) nem (Ataipar;enoc)[/coptic]
    It is "[coptic]A I=y=c P=,=c[/coptic]" like "[coptic]Apen=[=c[/coptic]" and "[coptic]ataipar;enoc[/coptic]"
    [coptic]]nah] pamenrit>[/coptic]
    [coptic]aimose ehanws `nnihymnoc hiten `pcaq Iprahym ouoh afouwnh ebol je `n;of `n`fka] an `n]metrem`n<ymi qen oujwk[/coptic]
    I attended some hymn classes by cantor Ibrahim and he revealed that doesn't understand the Coptic language completely
    [coptic][i`nhyt je niek`klycia euhwc paihymnoc kata (I=y=c P=,=c ernycteuin) aryou cecwoun oupetmyi ie oupetsoft[/coptic]
    Notice that the churches singing that hymn as "[coptic]I=y=c P=,=c ernycteuin[/coptic]" probably don't know what is right or what is wrong
    [coptic]oujai qen `P=[=c[/coptic]
  • All,

    the "A" before Isous is not a past-tense marker, nor would it be even if it were before the actual verb, which already has a tense-marker of its own. The "A" is optional and is meant as a supplication. As if to say, "Oh, Jesus Christ."

    - Taio
  • [quote author=EpNomos EnTaio link=topic=7713.msg101138#msg101138 date=1237526037]
    All,

    the "A" before Isous is not a past-tense marker, nor would it be even if it were before the actual verb, which already has a tense-marker of its own. The "A" is optional and is meant as a supplication. As if to say, "Oh, Jesus Christ."

    - Taio


    I don't think that's true dude - If you break it down into two parts: 'er' which is the pre-nominal form of the verb 'iri' which literally means 'to do'. 'Er' is placed in front of nouns to indicate the 'doing' of that noun. So in this case, 'ER-nesteveen', it means the 'doing' of the noun 'nesteveen' related to the Greek word 'nesteia' which means fasting. So it means 'to do fasting' or simply 'to fast'. As you can see there's no room for a past tense marker there.

    The A before the Isous is what's called the pre-subject form of the past tense. When its placed before the subject of a sentence (in this case that would be 'Isous PiXhristos') followed by a verb, it means that the subject 'did' the verb. The alternative 'Af' before the verb carries out the same function. You can use either one but you have to use one, otherwise the sentence loses its meaning.


    [quote author=ophadece link=topic=7713.msg101131#msg101131 date=1237503803]
    [coptic]`P=[=cnainan pamenrit>
    `mmon - vai ousoft pe @ (I=y=c P=,=c ernycteuin) `fermyneuin an `hli @ pijincahni `mmorvy `fnoi (arinycteuin)[/coptic]
    No - that is wrong; "[coptic]I=y=c P=,=c ernycteuin[/coptic]" doesn't mean anything; the imperative form will be "[coptic]arinycteuin[/coptic]"
    [coptic]vai pe (A I=y=c P=,=c) kata (Apen=[=c) nem (Ataipar;enoc)[/coptic]
    It is "[coptic]A I=y=c P=,=c[/coptic]" like "[coptic]Apen=[=c[/coptic]" and "[coptic]ataipar;enoc[/coptic]"


    Hi ophadece
    That's interesting, verbs that don't use 'er' are just said like they are, like how we just say 'Sotem tasheeri...' instead of 'MaSotem tasheeri..." but it still counts as a command (LISTEN my daughter). Does that mean that all verbs using the 'er' as a prefix have to use 'Ari' to be made into a request? I used to think the 'ari' form was only used for emphasis.
    For example, we start many litanies saying 'Ari-efmevi epchois', would the meaning change if we said 'Er-efmevi epchois'?


    PFM


  • [coptic]`P=[=cnainan pamenrit>
    ]sep`hmot `ntotk e;be pekjinerouw `m`pnomoc`ntaio @ qen ouswt (AI=y=c P=,=c ernycteuin) _ (I=y=c P=,=c afernycteuin)[/coptic]
    Thank you for your reply to Epnomoc Entaio; in short "[coptic]AI=y=c P=,=c ernycteuin[/coptic]" = "[coptic]I=y=c P=,=c afernycteuin[/coptic]"
    [coptic]aha @ (ari---) pe pijincahni `mmorvy `nte `n`hli `nryma ete `cerhytc nem (er) @ (ma---) pe pijincahni `mmorvy `nte `nhli `nryma ete `cerhytc nem (]) (moi pe pijincahni `mmorvy `nte ])[/coptic]
    yes:[coptic] (ari---) [/coptic]is the imperative form of any verb that starts with [coptic](er) @ (ma---) [/coptic]is the imperative form of any verb that starts with [coptic](]) (moi [/coptic]is the imperative form of[coptic] ])
    [/coptic][coptic]Nem oumys `nnikeryma ceoi `mpoury] (cwtem e;be cwtem - ouwnh ebol e;be ouwnh ebol - `cmou e;be `cmou)
    [coptic]oujai qen P=[=c[/coptic]


  • With most other verbs they stay the same [coptic](cwtem [/coptic]for [coptic]cwtem - ouwnh ebol [/coptic]for [coptic]ouwnh ebol - `cmou [/coptic]for [coptic]`cmou)
    [coptic]oujai qen `P=[=c[/coptic]
    [coptic]]ouem`h;yi e;be pijiner`cnau `nna`cqai[/coptic]
    Sorry for doubling up my writings
  • Thanks for clearing that up  :)
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