Hello,
I have a question, I REALLY NEED HELP WITH:
Its to do with Exodus. Chapter 6, verse 28. Basically, God tells Moses to go and tell Pharoah to 'free my people'. Moses says something like "why me, I'm not really good at speaking"... God reassures Moses.. and then tells him "I will harden Pharoah's heart'.
Now.. wait a sec, this is SO strange. Why is God hardening the heart of Pharoah and yet at the same time asking Moses to tell pharoah to free the Israelites???
Is it that He wants the 10 plagues to fall on the Egyptians?
Is it because He wants to show that HE is Lord??
I'd like to know?? WHy Harden Pharoah's heart??????
Secondly, isn't that interferring in Man's Will?? I mean, He hardens Pharoah's heart, and that makes Pharoah stubborn, and that causes calamity on all the Egyptians. So, that leads us to the next question:
Does God then interfere in Man's Will for His Own Plan??
Then, this leads us to another question:
Does God make people's heart open and some closed?? Or is it the human will of each person to control his heart.
In fact, this last question is the MAIN question I need answered in this thread. The rest are REALLY important, but I need that asap.
Many thanks.
Comments
Then your own son get struck down by a horrible disease and then you start to feel the pain and your heart is softened and then you agree to help that lady.
It's just an example of how God can make someone's heart softer, I think He does that indirectly, not interfering with man's will, but with the circumstances that dictate it.
Hope that helps , it's just off the top of my head...
God bless
Please pray for my weakness
just imagine, if Moses went and told Pharaoh: "'The LORD, the God of the Hebrews, has sent me to say to you: Let my people go, so that they may worship me in the desert. (Exodus 7:16)" and Pharaoh listened to Moses and let the Hebrews go, and freed them, do you think they would have worshiped God as much as they did after all of the plagues??? if Pharoah's heart was not hardened, then the Israelites (after they got out) would not have apreciated what GOD has done for them....
When God says he will "harden the heart of Pharoh" He does not mean that He will interfere with our will. If that was God's intention, He would have never created us to begin with. By His foreknowledge, God knows that Pharoh will not let the Jews go. And He permitted that, He did not prevent it. Thus, He said He would harden Pharoh's heart. You have to realize that naturally nothing would make Pharoh simply let all of those thousands of Jews go simply because God "said so". He is not even Pharoh's God to begin with, so why should he care? Furthermore, if you have that many people working and tilling your land for free, will you let them go? I don't think so. I think its just a way of God saying that he is permitting Pharoh's heart to be hardened. It's like when it says in the Bible about Saul that, "An evil spirit from the Lord tormented him." Far be it from us to say that evil spirits are from the Lord. It simply means that the Lord permitted the evil spirit to enter Saul.
Most of your following questions then do not have a base since God did not actually "harden" Pharoh's heart. However, God does not interfere with anybody's will. Logically, why would God create us if we wanted to control us. He loved us, and He wants us to love Him. Obviously nobody loves another by force. Furthermore, our God is not an arbitrary God, randomly chosing whom He wishes to save and whom He wishes to perish. In fact, this kind of thinking would eventually lead one to Calvinism and predestination. God is far more just than that.
Your opinion is in contrast with that of Coptic Pharoah who has said a point of view that many have also said in the CHurch: That God hardened Pharoah's heart so that the Lord will be glorified.
Which is the correct version??
How can you say that it does not interefere with man's will when hardening someone's heart IS interfering with man's will. WHy did God do this???? He wanted the plagues to fall on the Egyptians?? But, surely it was by interfering with Pharoah's heart.
My problem is not the OT. Its what God can do for us. I'm GLAD that God interfered with Pharoah's will!!!!! Gosh!!!
How great it is if that was the case: that He can save us from our own wills... just take over the direction our hearts lead us to. I would love to believe that is the case..
But how can I know??
Look - i'm sorry, but we need homilies from the CoC fathers on this. Its obvious,otherwise we are just walking with our eyes shut.
My study bible has NO explanation on God hardening Pharoah's heart. If yours does,please post it. But for me, the words are clear : God made Pharoah stubborn. Why can u not see this as interference of man's will!??
As much as we would appreciate that, it does not happen and never will happen. That gives creation no purpose at all. If you look at it as if God actually hardened pharoh's heart, then He does interfere with man's will. I could be wrong, but that seems as if its the only logical explanation. I'll ask my FOC tonight and see...
I am not yelling but: GOD DOES NOT INTERFERE WITH MAN'S WILL!
As much as we would appreciate that, it does not happen and never will happen. That gives creation no purpose at all. If you look at it as if God actually hardened pharoh's heart, then He does interfere with man's will. I could be wrong, but that seems as if its the only logical explanation. I'll ask my FOC tonight and see...
Im listening to Moa3lim ibrahim sing Agios Athanatos Nainan... so its a bit hard to concentrate on this thread.. but I'm not disputing this. I know that God does not interefere with God's will.. but why then harden pharoah's heart?? Why? That's not fair.. he tells Moses to go and tell Pharoah to free my people, and the VERY same time, he hardens Pharoah's heart to stop him from freeing the Hebrews.
I mean, I thought I was complicated.
Look... Christ4Life.. listen.. take a deep breath.....
.....
...
Now.. it does LOOK or SEEM that Pharoah's will has just gone pear-shaped. I mean, his will was superseded by God's will.. i mean... it seems kinda obvious.. but i need the following questions answered:
a) Can God harden our hearts too?
b) Why did He harden Pharoah's heart and at the same time ask Moses to plead to Pharoah to free His people?? Now, I'm sure God has his wisdom, and we have ours... and I just would like to know what His plan was???
c) did God then WANT to punish the Egyptians??
This story is JUST incredible.. i'd love to learn more about it, and know what the message the Church has for us to learn from this story.
breath out.
another Theory:
God siad that He would Harden Pharaoh's heart, so then Moses knows it won't be easy... if God told Moses: Go and tell Pharaoh to let my people go... then Moses would expect it to be easy, cause God said it very simply and straight forward.... but when God sais "I will Harden Pharoah's Heart," then Moses would understand that it isn't as easy as just going to the Pharaoh, and from the first time, the pharaoh would let them go..... that can be another reason... but please correct me if i am wrong.
You see, let me share something with u, just so u are all on the same page as me:
I do not care to raise topics just for the sake of raising topics, and keeping my lead as the champion of topic making in tasbeha.org. Not at all.
If God hardened Pharoah's heart so that He might be glorified and reveal His strength to His people, as Coptic Pharoah suggests, then this has serious implications for the spiritual life of many others:
Let me elaborate:
Someone believes in God. The Holy Spirit convicts a person's heart and so they repent and turn to the Lord. Great. What about those whose hearts are hardened towards the Holy Spirit??
What can we say for them? Are their hearts hardened for a good reason? Does God allow their hearts to be hard against believing in Him?? against changing?? against repenting???
Is it worth praying for them even? Why is it that 2 people who have lived exactly the same life, one will believe and the other's heart will remain hardened???
Is that God hardening their hearts for a reason?? I'd really like to know.
Maybe this should have gone under personal topics.. but frankly, if u care to think about it, ALL tasbeha.org is basically "PERSONAL". There's no point in reading the Bible and not seeing how it applies to our lives?? is there ???
God does interfere with man's will. He does influence it. But the relationship is difficult to describe. But, yes, he allows a reasonable autonomy, too.
I think Iqbal is in a better position than me to comment on this, but I think the above thinking will eventually lead to a belief in predestination.
God does try all He can to bring me to His heart, but He will never push me to go to him. That must be very clear. I must make the decision to go or not. That was the whole point of creation, for man to love God. Not for the sake of God, for He does not need a humans, but because He loved us first He also wants us to love Him and to taste Him.
The hardening of the pharaoh's heart was not a positive act of God, but rather the natural effect of pharaoh's willful rejection of God's Grace.
Can you give me an example of this. Do you mean Pharoah's track record in how he treated the hebrews How could they have access to God's Grace? I thought this was only to those circumcised? Also, (i don't want to create a side topic), but when u say God's grace, are u not referring to the works of the Holy Spirit which was given to us during the Pentecost?? My FoC said that the Holy Spirit was on those annointed in the OT, such as King David, Saul etc.. but Pharoah wasn't anointed. So, what Grace would he have been privy to??? Well. this is what i've been after as I couldnt find any contemplations on this part of the bible nor commentary. Where did H.H say this? Can you provide me with the links or references for this? But weren't those signs shown AFTER his heart was hardened?? What signs did he see before he refused to let God's people go?? So, if I may just paraphrase u, u are saying Pharaoh's heart was already hard, but then why did God make it harder for?
Im sorry, if these questions are obvious, but its still not so clear for me.
If you wish, please could you give me any references from our Church fathers that discuss this matter
Many thanks.
(1) You are humbled
(2) You will be in denial, and continually try to prove yourself
Essentially, Pharaoh responded in the latter fashion, and the more he was insecure of his status as god, the more he refused to deny the power of God. So much so that God had to perform greater, more unambiguous signs to elicit a response. In this way, God's action and Pharaoh's response to the action led him to a more hardened heart.
You know how some people they go down this slippery slope self-destruction despite being continuously called to sanity? Every time they refuse help, and increase their need to prove themselves or let their self-will go mad, the less impact or response you will get when you try to warn them.
For instance, you know those anti-smoking Ads. Do you think each time a smoker sees the ad, they will desire to quit? No. In fact, the first time they see that commercial they might consider quiting, but feeling that they cannot, they decide the ads are propaganda. So then each time the ad comes, he will just take it as an assault to his "sane" beliefs, and become more resistant to the message of the ad. Then, instead of the Ad showing emphysema, they show feet amputed because they developed gangrene. Perhaps they will respond now to that, but they may again choose to ignore, and continue to believe that the campaign is all propaganda.
I hope this helps.
at the end of the day, do you believe that God made pharoah's heart hard?
I did not quite understand Iqbal's response but isn't that playing with pharoah's will. So, by making pharoah's heart hard, what did God achieve?? Put it this way: What would have been the outcome if Pharoah's heart was NOT hardened by God???
Would pharoah have let the israelites go??
Pharaoh did let the Israelities go.
And yes, God did "play" aroung with his will by giving Him an opportunity to change His ways. If man could not have his will influenced, then they are only robots. Doing what is internally programmed.
The issue of Sacramental Grace and the associated issue of ministerial offices are irrelevant to this discussion. In his ‘The Life of Repentance’ His Holiness says: “God wanted to attract [pharaoh] to Himself by means of these plagues. But pharaoh refused to listen to the Lord, in spite of all of God's wonders which he himself had experienced.” No, they weren’t. It was only after the plague of the flies that Pharaoh’s heart is said to have become hardened. My point is that pharaoh’s hardness of heart was essentially self-inflicted (God's involvement was incidental insofar as He provided pharaoh with the opportunity to exercise his free will either to his advantage or deteriment). It did not undermine his free will, but rather it was the very consequence of the manner in which he chose to exercise his free will.
No, they weren’t. It was only after the plague of the flies that Pharaoh’s heart is said to have become hardened.
Hi Iqbal,
THanks for the response by the way.
In Exodues, chapter 6, verse 28. God at that moment decides to harden pharoahs heart, and then we see the 10 plagues afterwards. Now, did God just decide to harden his heart at that point and make it effective after the plague of flies?
But, would you also agree with your brother Clay who says that God does, to some extent interfere with our will ???
I would disagree with how clay chooses to describe his position as God interfering with man's free will, but have no objection to the substance of what he is saying which seems entirely compatible with everything I have said thus far.
I'm not sure what Bible you're reading, but Exodus 6:28 in mine says nothing about the Pharaoh's heart being hardened...
I would disagree with how clay chooses to describe his position as God interfering with man's free will, but have no objection to the substance of what he is saying which seems entirely compatible with everything I have said thus far.
Sorry, chapter 6, verse 28 was for another verse i was reading somewhere else. My bad.
No .. this is Exodus chapter 4, verse 21:
Check this out And then later on in the chapters that follow, all the 10 plagues start.
Anyway, in chapter 7, look at what happens: Again, GOd says that He wants to make pharoah's heart hard SO that he refuses. I mean, it looks as if God wants to just punish Pharoah, using pharoah's will against him. Again, these things are said before the 10 plagues start.
If its too frustrating explaining.. i'll just read the book on the life of repentance.. I need to get this somehow.
Being all-knowing, God is obviously in a position to be able to reveal, not only before the 10 plagues, but even before the creation of pharaoh, what the future situation will be given His pre-knowledge of how pharaoh will react. The fact remains that the way pharaoh eventually acts is not determined by God, and is entirely within the realm of pharaoh’s free will, and it was not until pharoah freely rejected every sign up until and including the plague of the gnats that his heart began to harden. That’s not what God says. This is simply a case of you attaching the wrong connotation to the term “so.” You are misinterpreting an ambiguous (and not very good) translation.
In the English language, the word “so” can operate as an adverb or as a conjunction:
As an adverb it can mean: Because of the reason given; consequently: e.g. “She was weary and so fell.”
As a conjunction it can mean: In order that: e.g. "I stayed so I could see you."
Your difficulty arises because you are wrongly interpreting the term “so” in the translation of Exodus 4:21 as a conjunction, when it was in actual fact intended to be an adverb.
Allow me to add a few words to the translation to give you a better idea of the sense in which “so” is to be understood as per the translation in question: “But I will harden his heart, and so, because of that, he will not let the people go.” As we have already discussed, God does not in actual fact harden pharaoh's heart, He only withdraws His Grace in response to pharaoh's resistance of that Grace. In essence therefore, Exodus 4:21 says: "But even after so many signs, he will reject my Grace and I will thus revoke it and his heart will be hardened, and consequently, he will insist on refusing to let my people go."
[quote author=Iqbal link=topic=6837.msg91826#msg91826 date=1214660775]
I'm not sure what Bible you're reading, but Exodus 6:28 in mine says nothing about the Pharaoh's heart being hardened...
I would disagree with how clay chooses to describe his position as God interfering with man's free will, but have no objection to the substance of what he is saying which seems entirely compatible with everything I have said thus far.
Sorry, chapter 6, verse 28 was for another verse i was reading somewhere else. My bad.
No .. this is Exodus chapter 4, verse 21:
Check this out And then later on in the chapters that follow, all the 10 plagues start.
Anyway, in chapter 7, look at what happens: Again, GOd says that He wants to make pharoah's heart hard SO that he refuses. I mean, it looks as if God wants to just punish Pharoah, using pharoah's will against him. Again, these things are said before the 10 plagues start.
If its too frustrating explaining.. i'll just read the book on the life of repentance.. I need to get this somehow.
QT_,
God is in control of everything. All wisdom belonds to Him. All happenings are allowed by Him.
Don't you think pharoah should have been punished? Aren't we punished if we misbehave? Even from childhood our parents who know us will give us fitting punishment.
God knows His creation and what it needs? Maybe because of those plagues sent to the Egyptians because of their Pharoah's hardened heart, caused some of them to become believer's in the one true God; because they saw God's awesome Power.
I need time to read H.H's book on life of repentance.
This thread wasn't from me, its from someone else. I just asked the question on their behalf as I couldnt answer them in person. I think i need to read H.H's book on the Life of Repentence.
I'm going to lock this thread until i've had sufficient time to read more about this, otherwise people will start posting their opinions, and it will get more confusing for me.
As an adverb it can mean: Because of the reason given; consequently: e.g. “She was weary and so fell.”
As a conjunction it can mean: In order that: e.g. "I stayed so I could see you."
Your difficulty arises because you are wrongly interpreting the term “so” in the translation of Exodus 4:21 as a conjunction, when it was in actual fact intended to be an adverb.
Sorry in my haste last night I didn't properly think this through. Before I edited my post as seen quoted above, I in fact referred to a conjunction that gives the same effect as the adverb. There are two different types of conjunctive senses of "so"--it is the one that I have referred to above that QT is wrongly imputing on the translation of Ex. 4:21 in question and not the one that previously appeared before I made the relevant editions.
Look, I'll be totally honest with u, this has turned out to be quite a lot for me to assimilate. Moreover, it seems that everyone has a different opinion.
That's why i locked it. I locked it only to take time to read through and ask before everyone starts posting their opinions to confuse the issue more.
Iqbal, I don't know what to tell u. In the French Bible it explicitly says that God will harden pharoah's heart. So, the clear understanding in French is that God will harden Pharoah's heart. There is no confusion here. If it is a translation issue, then if my English is poor, my French is way better. French is a very precise language, unlike English. There are no two ways a sentence can be taken in French.
Look at what it says in French: The Lord says "Pour moi, j'endurcirai le coeur de Pharaon".
There are no TWO ways to accept this OTHER than "I WILL harden the heart of Pharoah".
This would then given rise to the following questions: God can then change/alter man's heart?? I mean, this doesn't necessarily mean He is playing with Man's will. That was an assumption that was far fetched. WHo is to say that??
We pray often for peace between two people that God will soften the hearts of 2 enemies so that love can exist between them. There is no playing with their will. But what I find intriguing is that God did not say He would "SOFTEN" the heart of Pharoah so that He would release the israelites. On the contrary, He decided to harden it.
Now, Iqbal, if this is a translation issue in English, I can assure u, in French, its clear as crystal: "God WILL harden Pharoah's heart".
I just spoke with someone that read H.H's contemplations on this story.
God took away His Grace from Pharoah, and by doing so made his heart hard.
(from the words of the Pope).
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So, can I assume that God's grace can be given to anyone? And its through His Grace that people believe in God?
OK.. if you didnt get that question, let me re-phrase it using an example.
THe good thief on the cross (le bon larron) - he had the SAME life as the other thief, yet his heart was more open to accept Christ. Was it open because of God's grace??
So, God's grace has always been for everyone. But the particular grace of the Christian covenant, is obviously reserved for those who are Baptised and Anointed.
NOTA: I just want to say that the purpose of this thread IS to answer this question.. whether God involved Himself in someone's will or not is irrelevant to this thread. Therefore, the subject, or more precisely, the objective of this thread has not changed, as far as I am concerned.
By our very nature, we were capable of doing good things. It is not commendable to do good work- it should be a given (yet God looks kindly anyway to those who pursue righteousness). When we do good things, we are just doing what we were designed to do. It is nothing to boast about. But after the fall, we have been blinded to the will of God, and thus by grace of God, all people have at sometime in their life acted according to God's will.
Grace is what God is all about in His dealings with His creation. And He deals with everyone, according to their hearts. He resists the proud but gives grace to the humble (c.f. 1 Pet. 5:5, 1 Thess. 5:12, Heb 13:7, 17). But, to us Christians, who have received the gift of the Holy Spirit in Chrismation, "to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ's gift" (Eph 4: 7).