adam intro for tar7 or difnar

edited December 1969 in Hymns Discussion
i was looking for all recordings of the adam intro in all tunes and occasions.i heared 2 different annual tunes for the difnar intro,and a festive one for tarh in funerals (on tshi owini)... so i want to get all about it.
and there is a simple question,in the 50 holy days we don`t read the Synaxarium,but what about the difnar?? do we read it or not?
thx

Comments

  • Hi shnoda,
    I think I missed your comments on this site. As far as the second question is concerned, I don't think defnar is supposed to be read in the fifty days. It is treated as the synexarium as I know. I am hoping minagir will give us a concise answer to your first question with links to download all of these hymns.
    God bless you and pray for us a lot
  • [quote author=shnoda link=topic=6563.msg86967#msg86967 date=1210236870]
    i was looking for all recordings of the adam intro in all tunes and occasions.i heared 2 different annual tunes for the difnar intro,and a festive one for tarh in funerals (on tshi owini)... so i want to get all about it.
    and there is a simple question,in the 50 holy days we don`t read the Synaxarium,but what about the difnar?? do we read it or not?
    thx


    you guys are right. there is no difnar. but instead, the exposition are said. like in kiahk. there are expositions, one for every week, i think theyre on the text library. what u'd say is the normal intro and the exposition in [coptic]{i`ou`wini[/coptic] tune.
  • [quote author=minagir link=topic=6563.msg86975#msg86975 date=1210257628]
    you guys are right. there is no difnar. but instead, the exposition are said. like in kiahk. there are expositions, one for every week, i think theyre on the text library.


    well,we used to say the denfar after the exposition in kiahk.we thought ,if the exposition is not to be said in kiahk,so why readings of kiahk is included in the book ?!!

    [quote author=minagir link=topic=6563.msg86975#msg86975 date=1210257628]
    what u'd say is the normal intro and the exposition in [coptic]{i`ou`wini[/coptic] tune.

    let me get it more clear,we say the adam intro in the normal annual tune then the exposition in [coptic]{i`ou`wini[/coptic] tune....
    or both are said in the same tune? and if so,do u happen to have a recording for the adam intro in [coptic]{i`ou`wini[/coptic] tune


    one last question...
    what about saying tamgeed for saints in the holy fifty?
  • Yes i've been wondering about the same thing, is it ok to do tamgeeds for saints during this time?
  • [quote author=shnoda link=topic=6563.msg87046#msg87046 date=1210359833]
    [quote author=minagir link=topic=6563.msg86975#msg86975 date=1210257628]
    you guys are right. there is no difnar. but instead, the exposition are said. like in kiahk. there are expositions, one for every week, i think theyre on the text library.


    well,we used to say the denfar after the exposition in kiahk.we thought ,if the exposition is not to be said in kiahk,so why readings of kiahk is included in the book ?!!


    well am not sure. but there are expositions for weeks of kiahk, as we can see in the kiahk psalmody. i guess the difnar have all anyways. it's like the other days that we know that have feasts, but it doesn't tell you that there is a feast, but rather still gives you the reading.


    [quote author=minagir link=topic=6563.msg86975#msg86975 date=1210257628]
    what u'd say is the normal intro and the exposition in [coptic]{i`ou`wini[/coptic] tune.

    let me get it more clear,we say the adam intro in the normal annual tune then the exposition in [coptic]{i`ou`wini[/coptic] tune....
    or both are said in the same tune? and if so,do u happen to have a recording for the adam intro in [coptic]{i`ou`wini[/coptic] tune

    well i first never heard it live. but it makes sense to do. i think a similar idea is how in funerals in the fifties, there is an exposition, it's intro becomes "khen efran" the noraml commentary intro in pascha. but since its in the fifties, it have to be festive, where the priest says both parts, intro and part of exposition, in the festive tune. also my priest really like to say it because as you'd hear, it's more like a short khen oshot tune.


    one last question...
    what about saying tamgeed for saints in the holy fifty?

    like what we just did last wed for St. Mark's feast, you keep all the rites for the fifties, and you do a procession starting with Ekhrestos and than you can get into ekisma-root and the rest of the tamgeed hymns.
  • this is more confusing....why don`t we read the Synaxarium?
    i think bcos in the holy fiftes we focus on the resurrection of our lord jesus christ and not on any other saint`s life,am i right?
    so why the tamgeed yes,and the defnar no (although the defnar is more like a praising to the saint... i.e. much more like a tamgeed)
  • another thing about exposition, in some occasions we found both adam and watos exposition for sunday !!!
  • [quote author=shnoda link=topic=6563.msg87056#msg87056 date=1210365760]
    this is more confusing....why don`t we read the Synaxarium?
    i think bcos in the holy fiftes we focus on the resurrection of our lord jesus christ and not on any other saint`s life,am i right?
    so why the tamgeed yes,and the defnar no (although the defnar is more like a praising to the saint... i.e. much more like a tamgeed)


    well your right about the synaxarium part. the difnar doesn't go with the tamgeed but rather the senixar. so it's clear not tosay both of them in the fifties.
    now about the tamgeed...normally you'd do a tamgeed for the feast of the saint. you can't randomlly keda do a tamgeed for a saint forgating Jesus Resurrection. but you only would do one on specific feasts of (feamous) saints becasue it would be approbiate to do so. also don't forget, at the beginning of that you are declaring Christ's Resurresction by saying Ekhrestos Anesti.
  • Dear minagir,
    I don't really agree with what you are saying. Although I don't have any sources (being a beginner in rites anyway), I can only say that it doesn't make sense that synexarium or antiphony are not read while glorification hymns are sung. There is no difference between big and small saints - that is an arbitrary distinction which I don't agree to anyway. I don't think glorification of saints should be carried out in the holy fifty days at all from a ritually strict point of view, but exceptions maybe the patron of the church, or doing the praises at homes.
    God bless you all and pray for us a lot
  • [quote author=ophadece link=topic=6563.msg87124#msg87124 date=1210423599]
    Dear minagir,
    I don't really agree with what you are saying. Although I don't have any sources (being a beginner in rites anyway), I can only say that it doesn't make sense that synexarium or antiphony are not read while glorification hymns are sung. There is no difference between big and small saints - that is an arbitrary distinction which I don't agree to anyway. I don't think glorification of saints should be carried out in the holy fifty days at all from a ritually strict point of view, but exceptions maybe the patron of the church, or doing the praises at homes.
    God bless you all and pray for us a lot



    well i can understand what you are saying. but what i said before was refering to your last sentance, which is in fact hte only exception for doing a tamgeed. for example, we had st Mark's feast last Thursday, we had vespers and tamgeed wed nit, and liturgy thrs morning.
  • [quote author=minagir link=topic=6563.msg87053#msg87053 date=1210364203]
    well i first never heard it live. but it makes sense to do. i think a similar idea is how in funerals in the fifties, there is an exposition, it's intro becomes "khen efran" the noraml commentary intro in pascha. but since its in the fifties, it have to be festive, where the priest says both parts, intro and part of exposition, in the festive tune. also my priest really like to say it because as you'd hear, it's more like a short khen oshot tune.


    so what did u say at ur church the last 2 saturdays ?did anyone tried to say it on the festive tune or just read the exposition without an intro ?
  • [quote author=shnoda link=topic=6563.msg87159#msg87159 date=1210455719]
    [quote author=minagir link=topic=6563.msg87053#msg87053 date=1210364203]
    well i first never heard it live. but it makes sense to do. i think a similar idea is how in funerals in the fifties, there is an exposition, it's intro becomes "khen efran" the noraml commentary intro in pascha. but since its in the fifties, it have to be festive, where the priest says both parts, intro and part of exposition, in the festive tune. also my priest really like to say it because as you'd hear, it's more like a short khen oshot tune.


    so what did u say at ur church the last 2 saturdays ?did anyone tried to say it on the festive tune or just read the exposition without an intro ?


    well in my church, we never say them. am not happy for that but we never did. we occasionaly do like evey once in a while...that's it. also when there is a clear and full book of the difnar, that would make it easy. i know that the southern diocese is workin on one with full coptic, arabic and english.
  • Today I had the pleasure of speaking with M. Ibrahim Ayad. I asked him this question, he said since we don't read the synixarium in the 50 days, there would be no difnar. This is because, as he explained, the synixarium is equivalent with the difnar, so therefore it would not be said.
  • edited June 26
    @minatasgeel the Southern US Diocese one is mostly done by now, and it's available through their Coptic Reader app but you have to pay a small amount for it.
    As for the recordings, there are like 4 different annual Adam Difnar/Tar7 intros (the difnar and tar7 intros are the same hymn most of the time)
    Online I found this video  for both Adam and Vatos introductions and a small sample of the tune outside of the introduction. I haven't found anything more recent from Ibrahim Ayad, so I assume this is correct.
    It's worth noting that he says paikocmoc instead of the more common pikocmoc and does not say the long Ouon ouhelpic `ntan , for which there is a recording on here and on YouTube.

    /EDIT: I just found this video for Ibrahim Ayad saying a Vatos exposition live from 2015. He says a long response that I've never heard but here it is: 
  • I found this lesson by Ibrahim Ayad of the Watos Intro, credit to Daniel Girgis on Soundcloud.

  • And in the description of the above video of the Watos that is live by M. Ibrahim Ayad, the description says this particular exposition is said during the blessed month of Kiahk.
  • @mnhanna9 Thank you for pointing that out to me. God bless you and keep you safe.
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