Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Categories
- All Categories 13.8K
- General Category 10.8K
- General Announcements 184
- Faith Issues 3.4K
- Coptic Orthodox Church 2.5K
- Personal Issues 1.4K
- Prayer Requests 423
- Random Issues 1.8K
- Introductions 294
- Non-Orthodox Inquiries 232
- Youth Corner 606
- Hymns 2.5K
- Hymns Discussion 2.5K
- Technicial Difficulties 367
- Technical Topics 367
Toll Houses
Hi....I am new on here.....I am Coptic Orthodox like most on here....I just wanted to say that some of our great Fathers write about toll houses....such as St.Cyril of Alexandria and St. Athanasius the Apostolic (In the Life of St. Anthony) .....and it was regarded as incorrect in some other discussions.....so i was wondering where you guys got that so if i am incorrect i can be corrected...plz help...
Comments
pray for me
joe
-The Soul After Death by Fr.Seraphim Rose
"following a person's death the soul leaves the body and is escorted to God by angels. During this journey the soul passes through an aerial realm which is ruled by demons. The soul encounters these demons at various points referred to as "toll-houses" where the demons then attempt to accuse it of sin and, if possible, drag the soul into hell"
-The Soul After Death by Fr.Seraphim Rose
Do we believe in Toll Houses?? As Coptic orthodox Christians??
I respectfully and humbly respond, not from my own knowledge, but the knowledge of the Fathers.
A quote from St. Athanasius the Great from his Life of St. Anthony: "at the approach of the ninth hour, after beginning to pray before eating food, was suddenly seized by the Spirit and raised up by Angels into the heights. The aerial demons opposed his progress: the angels, disputing with them, demanded that the reasons of their opposition be set forth, because Anthony had no sins at all. The demons strove to set forth the sins committed from his very birth; but the angels closed the mouths of the slanderers, telling them that they should not count the sins from his birth which had already been blotted out by the Grace of Christ; but let them present— if they have any— the sins he committed after he entered into monasticism and dedicated himself to God. In their accusation the demons uttered many brazen lies; but since the slanderers were wanting in proof, a free path was opened for Anthony. Immediately he came to himself and saw that he was standing in the same place where he had stood up for prayer. Forgetting about food, he spent the whole night in tears and groanings, reflecting on the multitude of man's enemies, on the battle against such an army, on the difficulty of the path to heaven through the air, and on the words of the Apostle, who said: "Our wrestling is not against flesh and blood, but against the principalities and powers of this air (Eph.6:12; Eph.2:2). The Apostle, knowing that the aerial powers are seeking only one thing, are concerned over it with all fervor, exert themselves and strive to deprive us of a free passage to heaven, exhorts "Take up the whole armor of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day (Eph. 6:13), that the adversary may be put to shame, having no evil thing to say of us (Titus 2:8)."
One more quote, this one from St. Cyril of Alexandria (444 A.D.): "What fear and trembling await you, O soul, in the day of death! You will see frightful, wild, cruel, unmerciful and shameful demons, like dark Ethiopians, standing before you. The very sight of them is worse than any torment. The soul, seeing them, becomes agitated, is disturbed, troubled, seeks to hide, hastens to the angels of God. The holy angels hold the soul; passing with them through the air and rising, it encounters the toll-houses which guard the path from earth to heaven, detaining the soul and hindering it from ascending further. Each toll-house tests the sins corresponding to it; each sin, each passion has its tax collectors and testers."
I found this online, so I cannot claim credit. You may read into it as you wish. I also wish to say, not in an argumentative, judgmental nor attacking manner, that it is important for us to seek out answers in the writings of the Fathers as well as our own clergy in order to find the answer to the questions we may have. When we start to rely on our own knowledge, we will easily fall, and I pray against this for all. At the end of the discussion, we still will not know the answer. Pray for your salvation and mine, as this will be more fruitful than a discussion of the esoteric and unknown.
Forgive me and pray for me,
childoforthodoxy
I have to start to learn to write from the sayings of the Church fathers.
Well done on this piece of theological research.
So, we do believe in Toll houses then?? Can someone else confirm?
-St. John Chrysostom Concerning Frequent Communion
So, my brother, because you do not know when death will come, whether today, or tomorrow, or this very hour, you must always be communed of the immaculate Mysteries in order to be found ready. And if it is the will of God that you continue to live this present life, you will live a life, by the grace of Holy Communion, full of joy, full of peace, and full of love, accompanied by all of the other virtues. But, if it is the will of God that you die, on account of Holy Communion you will pass freely through the tollhouses of the demons that are found in the air, and you will dwell with inexpressible joy in the eternal mansions. For since you are always united to our sweet Jesus Christ, the almighty King, you will live a blessed life here; and, when you die, the demons will flee from you like lightning and the angels will open the heavenly entrance for you and usher you in procession to the throne of the blessed Trinity.
-St. John Chrysostom Concerning Frequent Communion
Thanks habibi,
So, we do believe in Tollhouses!? great.
How do u get all these sayings of the fathers?? The Nicene and Post Nicene Fathers is huge, and a very expensive collection.
It much easier to research something like this online......but you have to be careful that it is a well established Father in the church to take what they say as truth..
Well, Saint Anthony the Great is established - but where did u get this from?? (i mean his works?)
Also, do u know where i can get the agpeya on PDF?
With regard to the images in the accounts of the toll-houses... "One must firmly remember the instruction which the angel made to St. Macarius of Alexandria when he had just begun telling him of the toll-houses: "Accept earthly things here as the weakest kind of depiction of heavenly things." One must picture the toll-houses as far as possible in a spiritual sense, which is hidden under the more or less sensuous and anthropomorphic features."
The Orthodox Church has not made a formal dogmatic statement concerning the toll-houses, as far as my limited knowledge goes. This is not to say whether it is right or not; but I do want to emphasize and reiterate that it is a topic of which we know little about and it is somewhat inconsequential in the grand scheme of things. Whether or not I believe in toll-houses does not make me more or less prepared for that which comes to me after my departure, nor does it increase my struggle towards salvation; this is why, as I said above in my earlier post, it is much more fruitful to pray for one another's souls than to discuss something as far removed as this. That which will happen will happen. For he who has not heard of the toll-houses, he will struggle to live his life according to the Word of God in order to obtain salvation by the grace of God. The same applies for he who has heard of the toll-houses. In short, in my humble opinion, do not worry yourself with that which is impossible to know of, but strengthen your faith and works with that which you do know. Go out and learn the things that are useful to you, your salvation, your faith, and your service. As St. Paul says, "All things are good, but not all things are useful."
Pray for me, my brethren,
childoforthodoxy
This is really amazing stuff.
Also, i'm so proud that you guys are Coptic Orthodox. Its great to know we have youth in our Church that are really taking time to read the works of the Coptic Fathers.
This story could relate to the toll house ideas: a friend told me once "it is thought" that at the time of death there is an agony of conscience when the soul detaches from the body with the greatest fear of dying in sinful state (a state of no return, expecting to go to the worse destination), while during this moment it is seeing its past life as a very fast sequence of scenes (like a flashback movie?). Most real saints and martyrs would probably go to paradise like the thief on the Lord's right (this is not the Kingdom yet but the Victorious Church in paradise) and understandably would be accompanied by angels. This is of course a very hated situation by all the demons who wished and tried hard to let them fall.
On the other hand it would be likewise expected that the really evil persons' souls would be enslaved by the devil till Judgment day (God forbid). I never knew where my friend had these ideas, may be from a book, from a saint or from an angel. Thoughts, fiction - or visions?
GBU
Death... disaster... gloom...
gosh... its bedtime as well...
But.. how does it work in our Church? I mean, u are baptised, u repent for your sins and then u go to heaven. Those that u havent repented for, you get punished on judgement day. No?
GBU
pray for me
joe
I don't really think it matters; just accept the faith from the church that we either go to heaven for our good deeds, oor suffer in hell for them.... How do we get there? Just wait and see...
pray for me
joe
Yeah, ok Joe... But surely if we die, you want to read it about it before you go?? Learn about what there is to see, what's there to do... what's going on, latest events etc.
pray for me
joe
lol, its no vacation.... who knows whats there "No eye has seen, nor ear has heard, nor has come upon the heart of man, what you have prepared O Lord for whom you love"
pray for me
joe
Joe,
I'm not saying its a vacation, but I'm saying that if u are prepared and know what's on offer, u can make the most of a bad situation.