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sex with a condom
Im having a real problem with a catholic person who insists that married couples who use a condom is a sin... I know the orthodox church allows the use of a condom, but for what reason?
Comments
are SURE that wedon't support it ??
that sounds slightly off.
and why? well because it's your choice if you want to have a kid, if you don't and you're not ready, who's business is is to tell you what to do.
gah. i thinkk...catholics don't believe in any sort of contraceptives(sp?)..i dont know though.
Actually, the Orthodox Church (both Eastern and Oriental) do not support condoms at all. Any mechanism that will keep the sperm from reaching the egg is not supported, however, I believe our church supports the birth control pill, for it does not impede the movement of the sperm to the egg.
i have to agree with this. it is right. the use of condoms is not right in our coptic orthodox church.
as for the pill, according to what HH said, just get as much kids as you first want and than start taking it. it is medically proven that it can permently prevent birth.
[quote author=copticcross3 link=topic=6537.msg86518#msg86518 date=1209617242]
and why? well because it's your choice if you want to have a kid, if you don't and you're not ready, who's business is is to tell you what to do.
that's what you think. first, stopping a new child from coming to life is a SIN. also we believe that everything happens through God's will. if you'd like it or not.
let me through this out there: my mom brought me and my 3 brothers (4 boys all together), while using protection. and she knew what she was doing because she was a nurse.
now for some other things concerning, "who's business is is to tell you what to do," i'd have to include sex. sex is a sacred thing that God created for marrage. the things that you see today in pron is not sacred. they disgraced the whole act. so there are manners for everything, even in having sex.
fyi, do you gys know that orthodox jews couples, wehn they have sex, they use a sheet between their bodies that they would not touch….hopefully this is self-explanatory
[quote author=SilentOne link=topic=6537.msg86517#msg86517 date=1209616571]
Actually, the Orthodox Church (both Eastern and Oriental) do not support condoms at all. Any mechanism that will keep the sperm from reaching the egg is not supported, however, I believe our church supports the birth control pill, for it does not impede the movement of the sperm to the egg.
i have to agree with this. it is right. the use of condoms is not right in our coptic orthodox church.
as for the pill, according to what HH said, just get as much kids as you first want and than start taking it. it is medically proven that it can permently prevent birth.
[quote author=copticcross3 link=topic=6537.msg86518#msg86518 date=1209617242]
and why? well because it's your choice if you want to have a kid, if you don't and you're not ready, who's business is is to tell you what to do.
that's what you think. first, stopping a new child from coming to life is a SIN. also we believe that everything happens through God's will. if you'd like it or not.
let me through this out there: my mom brought me and my 3 brothers (4 boys all together), while using protection. and she knew what she was doing because she was a nurse.
now for some other things concerning, "who's business is is to tell you what to do," i'd have to include sex. sex is a sacred thing that God created for marrage. the things that you see today in pron is not sacred. they disgraced the whole act. so there are manners for everything, even in having sex.
fyi, do you gys know that orthodox jews couples, wehn they have sex, they use a sheet between their bodies that they would not touch….hopefully this is self-explanatory
So than do we llike the catholic church believe in not using any form of contraceptives?
i asked abouna before..they allow it to control family size as people cant afford having lots of children...whats wrong with that? without contraception long ago..people used to have at least 10 children...who would like that?????
Although, I never heard about this condom thing. Why are they not allowed?
there's a zillion thread's about this (can't be bothered to find them :P).
If you don't believe me, go ask anba Bola or anyone else you would believe.
Not using contraception is based on the assumption that the only goal of sex is procreation, something that is totally contra-biblical and contra-logic. Since we believe that there's other goals besides procreation, it logically follows that contraception is allowed (as long as it does not kill the foetus, like the 72 hours after pill - ie the morning after pill). That includes the use of condoms, the pill etc.
You may want to have a look at this:
http://www.suscopts.org/q&a/index.php?qid=1128&catid=567
Does everything really happen through God's will...? Well, not really. Everything happens with his permission, but it's not always His will. Is it God's will for these girls in texas to be pregnant through incest? I doubt it. Does God allow it to happen? Yes, definitely. Can he make something good come out of it? Yes, definitely.
God gave us a brain, to use it properly. If people would not prevent baby's to come to life throughout their entire life, we would all end up having 12 brothers and sisters. I'm sure that can't be healthy for the world population. I'm 100% positive that God used scientist in the proper time to invent these contraceptives, in order to prevent a global disaster.
Do people abuse them? Yes, perhaps. Is that a reason for us to condemn these people, or stop using contraception? I doubt it.
For those people who condemn the use of condoms and think the pil is allowed to be used...what's the difference? The pil stops the ovulation so that the seed cannot reach the oocyte, while the condom prevents the seed to reach the oocyte through a physical barrier. How is this different?
You know me - I love the Catholic Church, but I've got no idea what happened to it. Perhaps its just my bad luck, but I spoke to a Catholic Church servant about this and she said that contraception was wrong, but not fornication. lol. Apparently abortion is wrong too. And then someone else said Adultary isnt wrong.. and she got her priest to confirm that adultary was OK, so long as both parties were OK about it...
Listen, its best to be Orthodox even if you can't sing the hymns u want when u want, its not so important.
Pray for me
Hence, I think that there is a big inconsistency between the popular opinion and the Bible. Or perhaps I am mistaken.
But I am not married, so I might be biased. But if sexual intercourse can be used with the intent of not procreating, I don't see the logic of not allowing fornication and homosexuality, unless the eros love was only meant to be shared by a married couple for another reason? I think we get into a state of confusion if the possibility of children is excluded.
+ Sex is made for reproduction and in my own personal views this should not change at all.
The thing is if contraception is allowed doesn't this increase fornication? ???
+ Why did the fathers of the chruch allow such a thing to happen?????????????
What can I say Lustful desires.
Clay my views are like yours. I can't understand why our church will allow contraception. It is somthing that is troubleing me greatly. Who created contraception any way? When god created adam + eve he said to them 'multiply and be fruitiful' meaning have babies. I mean contraception is just the opposite.
+ Sex is made for reproduction and in my own personal views this should not change at all.
The thing is if contraception is allowed doesn't this increase fornication? ???
+ Why did the fathers of the chruch allow such a thing to happen?????????????
What can I say Lustful desires.
To some extent, I agree with you. I was invited on the BBC World Service to discuss this issue just last week. In fact it was with the Organisation that promotes condoms at University. If you've been to any Uni in the UK, then you'll know that one of the "starter packs" is a bag of goodies with condoms and other contraceptions in them.
I accused her of being irresponsible. Her argument was that its to avoid STD's. I said, but the spirit in which it is being distributed is irresponsible. Rather than promote respect for sex, it just caters to serve people's desire. If condoms were not promoted, and they were not available SOO freely, I agree that people would either be embarassed to ask for them, or not use them, and subsequently NOT engage in ANY sexual activities.
I tried not to talk about God. This would have destroyed my entire argument.
I truly believe that the distribution of condoms not only incites sexual promiscuity, but sends the wrong message to kids about sex. Sex becomes a commodity. They can consume this whenever they wish, whenever they feel the need, whether its love or lust, it doesnt matter. It gives the youth a false sense of freedom, that condoms REDUCE the probability of catching an STD.
Sex is natural and from God. What causes STD's is not sexual intercourse, but rather sexual promiscuity. Having multiple partners. Condoms reduce STD's but do not completely immune the person. My argument was that respect for sex should be taught and people should think before they act on their passions.
God help us. This issue really strikes a nerve with me. I'm married, and it worries me what kind of world we will bring our kids in. I truly believe that we, as the light of the world, as the salt of the Earth, NEED to be involved in sending youth a message and an example on sexual purity.
Its in the hands of all of us to do something. Sure, I go on radio often to discuss these issues. I was invited, and at 1st I didn't want to do the interview, yet now I thank God that I was invited as i feel the need more and more each day to evangelise.
Anba Moussa (Bishop of Youth), on CTV said that its our duty NOT to be excluded from society, and act as if we are a sacred bunch of people who only inter-mix between ourselves. We are required to be part of society, and be the light. To Show God's light that should emanate from us, if the Holy Spirit is truley working in us, we have a duty to evangelise, 1stly by our actions, and secondly, if at all necessary, by our words.
My dear brothers & sisters, if you are not in Egypt, please do not hesistate to use the words given to us by Joseph: "How can I commit this sin before the Lord"? in your daily lives.
Clay my views are like yours. I can't understand why our church will allow contraception. It is somthing that is troubleing me greatly. Who created contraception any way? When god created adam + eve he said to them 'multiply and be fruitiful' meaning have babies. I mean contraception is just the opposite.
+ Sex is made for reproduction and in my own personal views this should not change at all.
The thing is if contraception is allowed doesn't this increase fornication? ???
+ Why did the fathers of the chruch allow such a thing to happen?????????????
What can I say Lustful desires.
sorry Lost, but i just at your profile and saw ur gender..lol typical...! why would a man worry about having children in the first place? if u were the one getting pregnant constantly then you would feel like a production factory or something...PEOPLE NEED A LIFE YOU KNOW contraception is not killing anyone...if you marry and decide not to ever use this then dont ever complain about the 10 children you might have (lol) and tell me how r you going to raise them up and your wife...how is she going to stand all this?????
people long ago had better health..if a woman nowadays does what they used to do long ago she wont survive hehe
we all say our opinions of stuff like NO NEVER ITS WRONG! YES THATS OK blah blah blah...and when u r actually put in a real life situation hardly anybody will stick by what they said its all 'words'
GB
Please don't just throw in your own private opinion, give credible sources or at least proper arguments.
http://tasbeha.org/mp3/Sermons/Bishops/H.G._Bishop_Paula/Family_Convention.html
Anba Pola on this matter, look for the sermon that says: "reasons for marriage".
It's a long sermon, but it adresses most of the issues on this thread.
http://www.suscopts.org/q&a/index.php?qid=572&catid=343
In this response of HG you clearly read that the reason sex outside marriage is sinfull is because it's outside the marital unity. It should be like a triangle: male, female, God. God unites the two in the holy sacrament, and therefore the physical unity is something holy.
This does not mean that sex outside marriage is sinfull because it's aim is not procreation, it's wrong because it's outside the unity of marriage.
http://www.suscopts.org/q&a/index.php?qid=1226&catid=508
This link should provide with a very clear answer to the matter of sex and procreation. St Paul explicitely says that man and woman should not deprive eachother unless the purpose is spirituality. How does that fit in the picture of sex being only for procreation? It doesn't. Or else we would all have unlimited amounts of kids. Don't tell me planning through the menstruation cycle is sufficient, it doesn't work always, so simply the conclusion is that birth control is not something wrong.
God said to Adam and eve to be fruitfull and multiply, that is logic. There were 2 people on the whole freaking planet at the time. Now we're over 5 billion, that's a minor difference perhaps you may want to concider when reading that specific verse.
Here follow 2 more links concerning this subject:
http://www.suscopts.org/q&a/index.php?qid=1309&catid=508
http://www.suscopts.org/q&a/index.php?qid=943&catid=508
The last point i'd like to make is concerning the words of Vassilios: We have to differentiate between 2 things: condoms within marriage (or any other contraception) for birth control, and using these things outside marriage. I think we all agree that this last thing is wrong, not because birth control is wrong but because extra marital sex itself is wrong in our believe.
Now let me ask you a question, if in a country where we live 95% of the people have extra marital sex and have more than one partner throughout their lives, is it responsible for these people not to use protection?
What is the greater evil? Having extra marital sex, or having extra marital sex + STD's + unwanted pregnancies that might cause abortion? I'm not saying we should encourage people to distribute condoms as a means of saying: hey it's okay, just have fun and do whatever you like, i just don't like this rather "naïve" way of thinking that not having contraception available will prevent nonbelieving people, who don't believe in the sanctity of marriage anyway, from doing these sinfull activities.
The consequences are all over the world to see: thanks to some religious people who say that using condoms will get you a ticket straight to hell, AIDS is all over the continent of africa, teen pregnancies are all over the world, and millions of babies are getting aborted every year and poor families have too many children without any means to support them.
Perhaps it is wise to deal with these issues in a more practical way, instead of trying to fight wrong morals by ideas that expose people to other great dangers. By testifying to the true meaning of sex, perhaps people will start thinking. Saying that contraception outside marriage is wrong is not the solution in my opinion, because for these specific people it's a means to prevent even greater evil.
Sorry if i sound harsh, or if i offended anyone, but I really believe we should have a wise attitude towards these issues.
[quote author=Lost link=topic=6537.msg86554#msg86554 date=1209660713]
Clay my views are like yours. I can't understand why our church will allow contraception. It is somthing that is troubleing me greatly. Who created contraception any way? When god created adam + eve he said to them 'multiply and be fruitiful' meaning have babies. I mean contraception is just the opposite.
+ Sex is made for reproduction and in my own personal views this should not change at all.
The thing is if contraception is allowed doesn't this increase fornication? ???
+ Why did the fathers of the chruch allow such a thing to happen?????????????
What can I say Lustful desires.
sorry Lost, but i just at your profile and saw ur gender..lol typical...! why would a man worry about having children in the first place? if u were the one getting pregnant constantly then you would feel like a production factory or something...PEOPLE NEED A LIFE YOU KNOW contraception is not killing anyone...if you marry and decide not to ever use this then dont ever complain about the 10 children you might have (lol) and tell me how r you going to raise them up and your wife...how is she going to stand all this?????
people long ago had better health..if a woman nowadays does what they used to do long ago she wont survive hehe
we all say our opinions of stuff like NO NEVER ITS WRONG! YES THATS OK blah blah blah...and when u r actually put in a real life situation hardly anybody will stick by what they said its all 'words'
GB
hahahaha..... gosh i would shot myself in the head if i had 10 kids :P hahaha...
When I get married, i wouldn't have finished school, i would have like 5 yrs or soo.... but I do NOT want to have kids 9 months right after i get married. me and my fience want to build our lives together first, so we would have a better life for our kids. and I have got to finish school and get my PhD before i have kids. and I am not gonna stay a virgin 4/5 yrs after marriage :P that is just non sense. I am not using any pills because you never know what side effects that may have.
I think using a condom to prevent a life is wrong, however, using it to prevent a life because the couples want to build their lives first so the life they are gonna make will have resources is not wrong. because you are preventing a life for a temporary time, not forver because sex is about lust and not about having a family.
Also, what about ppl who are infertile? and can't have any babies? doesn't that means stoping a baby from coming to life? are they sinning? how about ppl that adopted a child, did they sin because they didn't accept god's way for not allowing them to have kids, yet they chose to change that?
pray for me,
bentBABAyasooa`
I haven't went through the sermons, sorry, but is there something that deals with this story of the Bible. It has heavily impressed upon my conscience, both as a justification of the errs of self-pleasure and of pleasure avoiding circumstance.
I think at the moment, I disagree with the Bishops (may I be that bold, but this sounds like heresy) that just because St. Paul said do not deprive each other (i.e. the expression of love)- it does not warrant that that means sex is for solely pleasure. The expression of love should allow always for a product. Contraceptive use, when used for this purpose (as a Dr I know that there are myriad of other reasons COCP can be used), you are degrading sex to something obscure- something that God did not design it for.
Firstly, in my defence (lol) I had incited that there may be some other reason, but if Onan's removal contraception in Genesis was shunned, then what about all other contraceptive methods?
I haven't went through the sermons, sorry, but is there something that deals with this story of the Bible. It has heavily impressed upon my conscience, both as a justification of the errs of self-pleasure and of pleasure avoiding circumstance.
I think at the moment, I disagree with the Bishops (may I be that bold, but this sounds like heresy) that just because St. Paul said do not deprive each other (i.e. the expression of love)- it does not warrant that that means sex is for solely pleasure. The expression of love should allow always for a product. Contraceptive use, when used for this purpose (as a Dr I know that there are myriad of other reasons COCP can be used), you are degrading sex to something obscure- something that God did not design it for.
I understand what your saying, but I do beleive that sex is literally a physical way for a husband and wife to express their love. Im DEFINETLY not saying its the ONLY way, or that its the most IMPORTANT way, or even that its the BEST way... I think sex is below every other way to show your spouse you love them because it is a physical expression. Your spouse knows you love them by the way you act, things you do for them, the way you treat them, even serving them. Sex is below all of these things, but its still up their on the list. Many people today I think hate the idea of sex being a gift from God because it is used in such an ungoldy manner. Such as Pornography. But you must remember, God created these reproductive organs from the very begining. Not even after the fall of Adam and Eve, but before than. Might I add, "Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good" (Gen 1:31). So the male-female distinction, the reproductive process, and the pleasure associated with it, is part of the good world as God created it.
Since when is feeling good physically a sin? Is getting a message a sin? No, Is having a nice relaxing bath a sin? No, these are all things that make our bodies feel Good. So why is it we question whether having sexual relations with our husband or wife is a sin? Married couples have been united BY GOD HIMSELF, and gven these reproductive organs BY GOD HIMSELF. Ofcourse having Children is great, but no where in the bible does it say you must have children. Nor does it say you can only have sex with the intention of producing children.
Marital sex is a good thing.. The devil has used this gift of God to disgrace it and its name, sex is no longer seen as "good" as when God created (Gen 1:31), the devil has taken this gift given by God to Married Couples Joined in His name, and has given it to everyone to do it with anyone, even men with men, and woman with woman. He has disgraced the gift of God.. But we must remember its Origin, even though the devil uses sex to tempt us to do evil, rememeber Who created it in the first Place, God. God does not create sin, man does.
we have a twisted view concerning sex because we see it being practised in such a horrible way nowadays (and not just nowadays, this is not just something of this age - remember the sinfull practises of the Roman and greek era, or the sodomy of Sodom and Gomorra?). The difference is just that it has become more widespread and in the open than ever before.
However, this doesn't mean that sex is not designed by God to be enjoyable, and there's nothing wrong with it being enjoyable. Pleasure isn't something wrong, when practised in the right context: the marital union.
In fact, proof that sexual pleasure inside this marital union is not wrong is the fact that God designed our bodies in such a way that there's anatomic parts that have solely the function of pleasure and nothing else (if you dont know what i'm talking about, go back to your biology books).
If God intended it only to be for procreation, then why wouldn't there be just a few years of physical need and urge for sex, or just a short time every year? This is the biological system for a lot of animals...why then do females have the same hormonal cycle throughout the entire year? Why do they still have a sexual need after the menopause, they are 100000% infertile after that period cause they run out of follikels...see, it doesn't make sense at all!!!!!!!!
For the zillionth time: sex is not only for procreation!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Please don't just throw in your own private opinion, give credible sources or at least proper arguments.
http://tasbeha.org/mp3/Sermons/Bishops/H.G._Bishop_Paula/Family_Convention.html
Anba Pola on this matter, look for the sermon that says: "reasons for marriage".
It's a long sermon, but it adresses most of the issues on this thread.
http://www.suscopts.org/q&a/index.php?qid=572&catid=343
In this response of HG you clearly read that the reason sex outside marriage is sinfull is because it's outside the marital unity. It should be like a triangle: male, female, God. God unites the two in the holy sacrament, and therefore the physical unity is something holy.
This does not mean that sex outside marriage is sinfull because it's aim is not procreation, it's wrong because it's outside the unity of marriage.
http://www.suscopts.org/q&a/index.php?qid=1226&catid=508
This link should provide with a very clear answer to the matter of sex and procreation. St Paul explicitely says that man and woman should not deprive eachother unless the purpose is spirituality. How does that fit in the picture of sex being only for procreation? It doesn't. Or else we would all have unlimited amounts of kids. Don't tell me planning through the menstruation cycle is sufficient, it doesn't work always, so simply the conclusion is that birth control is not something wrong.
God said to Adam and eve to be fruitfull and multiply, that is logic. There were 2 people on the whole freaking planet at the time. Now we're over 5 billion, that's a minor difference perhaps you may want to concider when reading that specific verse.
Here follow 2 more links concerning this subject:
http://www.suscopts.org/q&a/index.php?qid=1309&catid=508
http://www.suscopts.org/q&a/index.php?qid=943&catid=508
The last point i'd like to make is concerning the words of Vassilios: We have to differentiate between 2 things: condoms within marriage (or any other contraception) for birth control, and using these things outside marriage. I think we all agree that this last thing is wrong, not because birth control is wrong but because extra marital sex itself is wrong in our believe.
Now let me ask you a question, if in a country where we live 95% of the people have extra marital sex and have more than one partner throughout their lives, is it responsible for these people not to use protection?
What is the greater evil? Having extra marital sex, or having extra marital sex + STD's + unwanted pregnancies that might cause abortion? I'm not saying we should encourage people to distribute condoms as a means of saying: hey it's okay, just have fun and do whatever you like, i just don't like this rather "naïve" way of thinking that not having contraception available will prevent nonbelieving people, who don't believe in the sanctity of marriage anyway, from doing these sinfull activities.
The consequences are all over the world to see: thanks to some religious people who say that using condoms will get you a ticket straight to hell, AIDS is all over the continent of africa, teen pregnancies are all over the world, and millions of babies are getting aborted every year and poor families have too many children without any means to support them.
Perhaps it is wise to deal with these issues in a more practical way, instead of trying to fight wrong morals by ideas that expose people to other great dangers. By testifying to the true meaning of sex, perhaps people will start thinking. Saying that contraception outside marriage is wrong is not the solution in my opinion, because for these specific people it's a means to prevent even greater evil.
Sorry if i sound harsh, or if i offended anyone, but I really believe we should have a wise attitude towards these issues.
Hi Matt, Ekhristos ANesti bud,
Yes.. i was obviously talking about condoms outside marriage. I truley believe that the free distribution of them encourages promiscuity.
What's needed is within any sex education program, "respect for sex".
Now, concerning your point that sex within marriage is not JUST for procreation, you are right; its called love-making. Some couples can have sex and never have kids, does it mean that their love-making was a waste of time? Not at all... perhaps they grow stronger in love towards one another??
I have to say that if its NOT for the purpose of procreation (within marriage), and the couple wish NOT to have kids now, and they do end up getting pregnant, then abortion is wrong. TOTALLY.
The Catholic Church, on the other hand, is extremely well versed with what they term "Natural Contraception" (for married couples). I attended a few lectures on this at the RC in Paris. Its all based on the time of ovulation... its extremely confusing. I asked the priest giving the talk: "look, wouldnt it better if u just used a condom or the pill? Surely, the idea of natural contraception is to avoid conception?? So why not avoid it in a way that's most reliable".
Unfortunately, i cant quote him exactly, but his argument was basically this:
If you use contraception, you are against God's plan. You are not loving your wife completely. You need to give God's plan a chance to work. But using contraception, you are rejecting His plan. Its OK to not be ready to have kids, but by using contraception, your are not loving completely so its best that your methods of contraception are natural.
I'm sorry if that doesn't make sense. It made sense to me actually when he said it... i'm just terrible at quoting others.
In A.D. 191 St. Clement of Alexandria referred to Onan's evil act in these words:
"He broke the law of coitus." (Comments on Genesis 6)
He went on to explain that "Because of its divine institution for the propagation of man, the seed is not to be vainly ejaculated, nor is it to be damaged, nor is it to be wasted." (Pedagogus)
Origen —
"nor were there among them women who sold their beauty to anyone who wished to have sexual intercourse without offspring, and to cast contempt upon the nature of human generation." (Contra Celsum, Bk: 5, chp. 42)
In A.D. 307 Firmianus-
"…complain of the scantiness of their means, and allege that they have not enough for bringing up more children, as though, in truth, their means were in [their] power... or God did not daily make the rich poor and the poor rich. Wherefore, if any one on any account of poverty shall be unable to bring up children, it is better to abstain from relations with his wife... the genital [generating] part of the body, as the name itself teaches, has been received by us for no other purpose than the generation of offspring.." ( Divine Institutions 6.23.18)
In A.D. 375, St. Epiphanius of Salamis-
"…exercise genital acts, yet prevent the conceiving of children. Not in order to produce offspring, but to satisfy lust, are they eager for corruption." (Panarion 26.5.2-6)
"…exercise genital acts, yet prevent the conceiving of children. Not in order to produce offspring, but to satisfy lust, are they eager for corruption." (Panarion 26.5.2-6)
Key word here is "LUST". it is wrong to prevent offspring to satisfy lust. However, i believe it is not wrong for preventing offspring for couples to build their life together first.
and in marraige there shouldnt be any lust, because the wife and husband are one and they are united by God.
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=6537.msg86604#msg86604 date=1209720495]
I have to say that if its NOT for the purpose of procreation (within marriage), and the couple wish NOT to have kids now, and they do end up getting pregnant, then abortion is wrong. TOTALLY.
I agree with that. Because even if the couple did all they can to prevent offspring because they are not ready, and the wife gets pregnant. Then it is god's will, and when she gets an abortion she is going against god's will.
My cousine's wife, she got an abortion because she didn't want the baby and now when she wants to get a baby because she wants too, and she is ready, she can't. She is infertile now. but nothing is impossible for god.
[quote author=clay link=topic=6537.msg86609#msg86609 date=1209741089]
"…exercise genital acts, yet prevent the conceiving of children. Not in order to produce offspring, but to satisfy lust, are they eager for corruption." (Panarion 26.5.2-6)
Key word here is "LUST". it is wrong to prevent offspring to satisfy lust. However, i believe it is not wrong for preventing offspring for couples to build their life together first.
and in marraige there shouldnt be any lust, because the wife and husband are one and they are united by God.
there is no lust in the marriage: the coupls love each other....sex is to strengthen the marriage bonds between the couple..otherwise why dont they just go sleep in different rooms in the first place. its not just for procreation
However, contraception is clearly allowed by our Church, it makes no sense to prevent them. Like many othere people have already stated, if it wasn't for contraceptives, many families would grow more than they can afford. Is poverty and hungry children a will of God? I don't think so.
I would like to state that there is a misconception here. Birth control pills are DO NOT increase infertility or make a female infertile. Birth control pills consist of hormones that prevent ovulation, and nothing else. Some unmarried girls even take them to provide stability to extremely unstable menstrual cycles. I have heard this from at least 3 different doctors.
However, contraception is clearly allowed by our Church, it makes no sense to prevent them. Like many othere people have already stated, if it wasn't for contraceptives, many families would grow more than they can afford. Is poverty and hungry children a will of God? I don't think so.
i agreeee 100% on this!!!!!!!!1
The only thing they seem to be worried about is - if u praise God and u don't sing or pray in silly languages such as "shalallalalala" - then u are not saved.
WHy do u think I am Coptic Orthodox? Despite the Coptic language problems, despite people swearing at me during tasbeha, despite the insults I get from tasbeha.org people... despite all of these things.. I am happy to be Coptic.
And soon, the Church will grow thanks to the Anglican community who is now divided on whether homosexuals can become bishops, as well as the ordination of women priests.
What do the Early Church Fathers say about this?
Heg. Fr. Athanasius Iskander wrote (as part of an on-going patristics series) on the issue.
http://stmaryscopticorthodox.ca/publications/articles/fathers/fathers.html [click Augustine]
Here is an excerpt (highlighting added): When comparing the fathers, here's what he writes: Please pray for me.
I really appreciate your post. But just to be sure there is no confusion amongst us, the message which our fathers say (concerning intercourse between husband and wife) is one of unity between husband and wife. It doesn't necessarily have to result in procreation. However, should procreation be prohibited?? This is the question??
I mean, a couple shouldn't only get married to have kids.. no. Their sexual relationship is holy and edifies the marriage. THis is understood from what I read below in George's post.
And of course, we are all in agreement, that the existence of an embryo, even if its life is just 10 mins should be respected, and not aborted. This is unquestionable.
But - preventing pregnancies: is this right or wrong? No where in the statement below from our Church fathers does it talk about preventing pregnancies. It only talks about sex is not only for procreation.
This is also preventing pregnancy. So if a woman has sex while using a condom, and the egg is 'lost' because it hasn't been used, I don't see the difference.
So I think if preventing pregnancies wasn't allowed, than the woman would have to use every egg (chance to get pregnant) she gets, which is rediculous...
God Bless
Please pray for me