Modesty

edited December 1969 in Non-Orthodox Inquiries
Is modesty a good thing in our church?? As in, do we accept it, if someone says, ya you are an amazing saint and so on and forth, and the saint goes no that person over there is, or something of that sort!! For example, Abouna Abdel Massieh, when people wanted to praise him and need help with there problems, so Abouna Abdel Massieh laughs out loud, and he sounds like he's hallucinating and delirious, then the people assume he's crazy, but all he wanted was to be with God, not to be praised, do we accept that, and if anybody has any stories feel free to share (unlimited)??

Forever,
Coptic Servent

Comments

  • Abouna abd elmasi7 is not the only one, but there are many more. The reason is usually to escape the praise of the people in which may lead to the satisfaction of the "ego" which is a good trap Satan use to get you away from God. Also those who remember their sins all the time by nature become humble and feel undeserving of that praise because what they did should only be for the Glory of God. Here is a story that I would like to share:
    "A brother once decided that he would abstain from sin and increase his spiritual life through Jesus Christ. Many months passed until one day the king of darkness appeared to the brother and said, 'Hail to you O righteous man. For you have prevailed over my minions and have thwarted all my efforts to make you lose your path. Now I say to you, what more do you want? You have crushed all my efforts.' Then the devil departed from the brother. A few days later, the devil appeared once more to the man and repeated the same words. A day later, the same occurrence. Eventually, the brother became accustomed to having the devil appear to him and praise him for his righteousness. Within a short amount of time the brother began to praise himself and he no longer felt the effort of spiritual war. He found himself to be powerful, according to the devil. Soon the brother lost all his humbleness and refrained from asking God for help and support in his efforts. He also lost control over his sins and found himself drowning each day in countless iniquities. I say to you my brothers, do not listen to the venomous words of satan! For when he sees you doing good in the sight of the Lord, he will come and praise you. This praise will soften your defense against his attacks and make you underestimate the trickeries and temptations of his demonic minions. He will make you feel as if you have reached your spiritual goal, in a futile attempt to make you stop growing in Christ. Do not be fooled! There is no limit to our spiritual growth! Praise God for all your hard efforts and give Him the thanks He deserves. Do not be as this man was and converse with satan. Shut him out completely! Only a fool would argue with a fool. When the thoughts of satan come to you, quickly praise our Master and ask for mercy and forgiveness."
    I hope that helped.
    Please pray for me
  • SaintaMaria05,
    I enjoyed reading that story, but I mean being praised for visible people, and I don't mean that come often, but are always there and what not, do we accept getting praise from people?? I know that satan is always there to tempt you when you are at the point where there is nothing he can do to tempt you because you assume that he will leave you alone since you are extremely close to God, but it ends up being that he is there! I mean that regular acquaintances or friends of that sort will praise you in a sense that you are the most vulnerable, and you need something to cheer you up, so you tell them that you aren't worthy and what not, but they keep doing it, is that healthy (in the sense of spirituality)??

    Forever,
    Coptic Servent
  • Sometimes we do need to hear something to cheer us up & encourage us once in a while. I also find it sometimes good because it opens our eyes to see things that God has given us but we did not realize it before. However, too much of anything is not healthy because it may lead to pride and self righteousness. I guess you have to be moderate; sometimes you have to escape and another you thank God for what He gave you.

    I hope that I have understood your question, sorry If I did not.
    Plz pray for me.


  • I agree that we do need to hear things that will soon enough help us feel better, but I not only mean that at the vulnerable state in which we are depressed but all the time, not just often, but you are always depressed or you bring up a good point like all the time, (I'm not talking about me though) and they always agree, so what can you do and what can you say??

    Forever,
    Coptic Servent
  • Consider words of praise to be a gift from God, because He has covered our sins and hasn't let those around us know of the things we have done to disobey Him. There is nothing wrong with accepting praise or compliments from others. It is no sin. The problem lies in those who are seeking compliments and praise and go out of their way to get it, which is a form of pride or self-centeredness. There are also those who try to be humble by condemning themselves in front of the praise and compliment givers by saying that he or she is not worthy and is a terrible sinner. Of course, many saints did that and went out of their way to escape peoples' praise. I don't know too much about that but I know that for people such as ourselves, it is better to accept it since anything good we do glorifies God than to turn the conversation around and focus on yourself and "woe is me" and how sinful you are. Those who do such a thing are no longer humble but are prideful, seeing their weakness as greater than God. Accept praise and try not to dwell on it and move on to other subjects, or what I do is give praise to the praise giver for how wonderful they are or for something wonderful they have done. I think a lot of people struggle with receiving praise from others because they are afraid of thinking too highly of themselves. I've been told by a wise person to give the glory to God to avoid such prideful thoughts.

    I think the greatest example of what to do with praise and compliments people give you are the Abounas in many churches. People shower them with praise. I haven't met many who do something crazy on the spot in order to reject it though. I've seen most priests gratefully accept it and use that opportunity as a chance to reach out and share Christ's love with the praise givers. God provides us with so much beyond what we deserve. He provides us with with people within our lives who support us, love us, encourage us, take care of us, pray for us, etc. That's why I think praises are blessings from God that we ought to thank Him for.
  • [quote author=SaintaMaria05 link=topic=6233.msg82291#msg82291 date=1203316754]
    The reason is usually to escape the praise of the people in which may lead to the satisfaction of the "ego" which is a good trap Satan use to get you away from God. Also those who remember their sins all the time by nature become humble and feel undeserving of that praise because what they did should only be for the Glory of God.


    I completely agree with this... No matter how great we are seen by others, that doesnt matter because thats nothing compared to what Our Lord has done for us. Always remember that we are nothing and that God is everything!!
    And to be humble doesnt mean thinking less or yourself but thinking of yourself less.
    There is a great sermon by Abouna Anthony on orthodoxsermons.com on humility and i recommend that you go listen to it, its amazing and i personally learned a lot from it!
  • As you said people like abouna abdel-messih el-manahry did this. Even infront of the pope who called him and invited him to take his blessing. I've seen it on his video how he said to the pope that the pope was married. The pope kicked him out but abouna abdel-messih didn't say anything wrong because he meant that the pope was married to the church.
    + The important thing is to get the sin of pride out of the way.
    + We shouldn't try to appear infront of others at all.
    + Don't try to act as abouna abdel-messih el-manahry because he is a saint that has his ways that wont work with us.
    Pray for me
  • Modesty
    By H.H. Pope Shenouda III
     
    In the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, One God, Amen.

    Modesty is the first virtue in spiritual life. It is the vanguard that protects virtues and talents. Every virtue that is not accompanied by modesty is likely to be snatched by the devil of vain glory and destroyed by conceit, boastfulness and self-admiration.

    Therefore if God has granted you any talent, pray to God to give you modesty with it or take it away from you, lest you should fall into pride because of it and perish.

    Modesty is the basis upon which all virtues are built. It is not a separate virtue that stands alone, but it is interwoven in all virtues like the thread that culminates into a garment.

    God gives His gifts to those who are modest because He knows that those gifts will not be harmful to them. The Holy Bible states that God reveals His secrets to modest people who become more humble inasmuch as God gives them glory. Therefore God summons us to be modest, and modesty and meekness were among the prominent characteristics of the Lord Jesus Christ that made Him beloved by all people. The Holy Gospel described Him by saying that He was "meek and humble in Spirit."

    The saints have perfected modesty in a curious manner. They were not modest only before God and people but they were modest even before devils, and they defeated devils with this modesty.

    When the devils used to fight violently against the great saint, Abba Anthony, he used to answer them humbly saying, "You, who are mighty, what do you, want of me, the weak person, while I am incapable of fighting against the weakest one among you?"

    He used to pray to God saying, "Save me, O God form those who think that I am something of value, while I am dust and ashes." When the devils used to hear this prayer that was full of modesty, they disappeared like smoke.

    Once the devil appeared to the ascetic monk, St. Macarius the Great, and said to him, "Woe to us from you, O Macarius, what things do you do that we do not perform? You fast and we do not eat, you keep awake at night and we do not sleep, you live in wildernesses and barren places and we do the same, but you defeat us with one thing." St. Macarius asked him, "And what is that thing?" The devil answered, "With your modesty you defeat us."

    Another time St. Abba Anthony saw the traps that were laid down by the devils so he threw himself on the ground before God and cried out saying, "O Lord who can be saved from these traps?" Then he heard a voice saying, "Modest people shall be saved from them."

    If modesty has such power as to defeat devils, what is modesty then?

    Modesty is to be aware of your weakness and to know your fallings and sins and to treat yourself according to this assumption.

    Modesty is not that you should feel that you are great and try to appear to be small, or to hide your greatness, since the mere feeling that you are great implies a kind of pride and your feeling that you hide your greatness includes a feeling of greatness that is obvious to you.

    Real modesty is modesty before yourself first of all, a genuine feeling that is not counterfeit in your inner soul that you are weak and sinful; even in the height of your strength you feel that this strength does not originate from yourself but that it is a heavenly gift from God to you. As for you your nature is something different.

    My brother, you should know what you are as this knowledge leads you to modesty. You are form the dust of the earth, nay, but the dust is older than you; it was found before you existed; God created it first then He created you from dust.

    You may remember the following lines of poetry: "O dusts of the earth my grandfather and the grandfather of all people. You are my origin, you are older than Adam. You are my fate in the sepulcher when I lie in a sepulcher."

    My brother, if you contemplate the matter with modesty you will find that this dust has not angered God as you have done through your sins. Therefore I tell you about an important fact that is: "God alone is modest."

    God is great and He condescends to talk to us who are small. He is Holy and He condescends to deal with us who are sinners. As for us modesty on our part is not to be considered as condescension but it is merely perception of ourselves.

    If you are aware of this fact then you should treat yourself in a way that is consistent with this knowledge and do not claim dignity or glory from other people. If you are tempted in connection with this matter you may answer yourself saying, "I do not deserve anything because of my sins and if God through the abundance of His mercy has concealed my sins from people yet I know about my sins very well and I do not forget them lest I should become proud in vain."

    Be careful not to forget your sins lest you should become arrogant and have false imaginations about yourself. Try to remember what was said by one of the saints, "If we forget our sins, God will remember them for us and if we remember our sins God will forget them for us."

    Confess your sins before yourself, before God, and if you can let this be before people as well; and if you cannot do that at least do not praise yourself before other people and do not accept their praise for you and if you hear that praise with your ears let your heart and mind refuse it.

    Do not attempt to obtain dignity for yourself before God or people and remember what St. Isaac said, "He who runs after dignity will find that dignity runs away from him and he who escapes from it on purpose will find that it runs after him."

    Let not your modesty be for show or only by word but let it be genuine modesty from the depth of the heart and with inner faith. Let it be modesty in spirit.

    If you live in modesty you will always live a life of gratitude. You will thank God for everything and under all circumstances, being conscious that God always gives you more than you deserve.

    As for the person who is not modest, on many occasions he murmurs and complains feeling that he has not attained what he deserves, that he deserves much and that he is oppressed by people and by God.

    A modest person lives with peace with all people. He does not get angry with anybody and he does not cause anybody to be angry. He does not get angry with anybody because he always blames himself and does not anger anybody because he demands the blessing and prayer of everybody.

    Let us all be modest so that we may deserve the work of God in us, God the Infinite Who has condescended and taken care of us.

    To God be the glory for endless ages...Amen.

    His Holiness Pope Shenouda III
    117th Pope of Alexandria and Patriarch of the See of St. Mark
  • Thanks alot achasaballa for sharing that article.
    There are couple of points that I really liked :

    1)Modesty is not that you should feel that you are great and try to appear to be small, or to hide your greatness, since the mere feeling that you are great implies a kind of pride and your feeling that you hide your greatness includes a feeling of greatness that is obvious to you.

    2)Real modesty is modesty before yourself first of all, a genuine feeling that is not counterfeit in your inner soul that you are weak and sinful; even in the height of your strength you feel that this strength does not originate from yourself but that it is a heavenly gift from God to you. As for you your nature is something different.


    3)Be careful not to forget your sins lest you should become arrogant and have false imaginations about yourself. Try to remember what was said by one of the saints, "If we forget our sins, God will remember them for us and if we remember our sins God will forget them for us."

    4)A modest person lives with peace with all people. He does not get angry with anybody and he does not cause anybody to be angry. He does not get angry with anybody because he always blames himself and does not anger anybody because he demands the blessing and prayer of everybody.


    please pray for me
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