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Coptic/Catholic Saints
Ok so I got a couple of questions, that popped up, when I was researching Incorruptibility.
If you didnt already know, Incorruptibility is when after a Saint dies, there body does not Rot or disingerate, but remains without decay? These cases are very rare:
A Coptic Example would be:
-Anba Bishoy, I've heard much about him, but I've never seen pictures of His body because at the Monastery they keep it covered.
A Catholic Example would be:
-Blessed Bernadette of Lourdes, Her body is enclosed in a glass shrine, so If you want to google her name, you will find pics.
My questions are:
1. Does anyone know any other Coptic Saints, whose Holy Bodies never corrupted?
2. Why does the Coptic Church (opposite of the Catholic Church) tend to cover the Holy Bodies.
3. Are we as Copts allowed to interceed or ask for the prayers of these Catholic Holy People? Even if they're beliefs differed from us i.e. those Catholic Holy People who were Post-Chancledon?
If you didnt already know, Incorruptibility is when after a Saint dies, there body does not Rot or disingerate, but remains without decay? These cases are very rare:
A Coptic Example would be:
-Anba Bishoy, I've heard much about him, but I've never seen pictures of His body because at the Monastery they keep it covered.
A Catholic Example would be:
-Blessed Bernadette of Lourdes, Her body is enclosed in a glass shrine, so If you want to google her name, you will find pics.
My questions are:
1. Does anyone know any other Coptic Saints, whose Holy Bodies never corrupted?
2. Why does the Coptic Church (opposite of the Catholic Church) tend to cover the Holy Bodies.
3. Are we as Copts allowed to interceed or ask for the prayers of these Catholic Holy People? Even if they're beliefs differed from us i.e. those Catholic Holy People who were Post-Chancledon?
Comments
Officially, I believe that although we can look at the good examples and the faith of those outside the Coptic church, we are nevertheless only able to ask for intercession from those who we know have been canonized through the correct means (i.e. Coptic Saints).
Unofficially, I believe that there are more liberal Coptics who would say: sure! A saint can be bad to ask to pray for you! Why not?!?!
Taylor
1. Does anyone know any other Coptic Saints, whose Holy Bodies never corrupted?- St. John Kame, St. Abraam, St. Sidhom Bishay and that's all I can remember-sorry
2. Why does the Coptic Church (opposite of the Catholic Church) tend to cover the Holy Bodies.
Best answer- Culture and respect.
3. Are we as Copts allowed to interceed or ask for the prayers of these Catholic Holy People? Even if they're beliefs differed from us i.e. those Catholic Holy People who were Post-Chancledon?
- Yes we are. My priest at the end of the commemeration of the saints in the divine liturgy says St. Teresa lol
PK
1. Does anyone know any other Coptic Saints, whose Holy Bodies never corrupted?
Sidhom Bishay, Fr. Botros (from a district in lower egypt he's a very modern saint), many martyr's relics of the city of Akhmim, Bishop Lokas the first (his body is in St. Tadros of Shotb in Sohag), and many more we don't know about. About St. Bishoy and other saints like St. Abraam, they're bodies are not shown...so we don't know much about they're body.
but anyways, why should be care. we should look and learn of there acts more than looking at their departed body. as it says here:
Hebrews 13:7 (NIV)
Remember your leaders, who spoke the word of God to you. Consider the outcome of their way of life and imitate their faith.
what's the point of leaving it incovered. mostly it's just a body that is compiled of bones. would bones pray on your behalf to Christ....no. As I know, maybe Iqbal can correct me if am wrong, all the father of the church before the split can be considered our fathers and we can use and include their sayings in our beliefs. Because at that time it was one Holy Church.
[quote author=desertnurse link=topic=5421.msg72315#msg72315 date=1181530438]
Unofficially, I believe that there are more liberal Coptics who would say: sure! A saint can be bad to ask to pray for you! Why not?!?!
please clear yourself a little....
about any other i dont know....
and the hand of saint marina is uncovered!
pp4m
Their purpose was not to deceive, but to allow her to appear more "presentable" to the viewing public. In her natural condition, she would not look anywhere near as perfect as she actually appears.
Iqbal, we don't have a bishop. However, when one comes to visit us, our abouna still does it, and sayedna says nothing. Actually, from the last time a bishop came, i remember him smiling after abouna said st. teresa.
PK
just glad u brought this up Iqbal. becasue i didn't think this is right either. I know we can add some of our own contemporary saints that are witnessed by our fathers to be saints. if am not mistaken that also applys for the midnight praise commemoration of saints.
I'd also like to know about the status of EO saints. One Coptic Bishop wrote a book about St Seraphim of Sarov.(By the way,I'd dearly like to get hold of a copy of that book if anyone can point me in the right direction).
God bless you
[quote author=Iqbal link=topic=5421.msg72366#msg72366 date=1181568119] With all due respect to your priest, I can't begin to tell you how wrong and uncanonical this is. I wander what your Bishop would do if he was aware of this.
just glad u brought this up Iqbal. becasue i didn't think this is right either. I know we can add some of our own contemporary saints that are witnessed by our fathers to be saints. if am not mistaken that also applys for the midnight praise commemoration of saints.
It even applies to liturgical prayers for the departed which follow the Commemoration of the Saints. A priest, who is well-grounded in the Rites of the Church, will not pray for any deceased person who did not die in Communion with the Church. That is why the text of that prayer explicitly states: “Remember also, O Lord, our other fathers and brothers who have fallen asleep before us in the Orthodox faith.” How much more so, therefore, should this apply for the departed Saints, whom the priests identify as those “spirits of the righteous who were consummated in the Faith.” Mother Theresa was certainly a very holy and righteous woman, and a great witness to Christ, but she was not “consummated in the faith”, which is the faith of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. Thus, her name should not be convoked at all within our Liturgical worship.
The question to address now, is why. Here is the answer: such prayers for the departed Saints (capital ‘S’) and saints (small ‘s’), are offered on behalf of the entire body of Christ; they are an expression of the unity between the Victorious/heavenly Church and the militant/earthly Church, which, though separated by time and space, remain mystically united. Those who were not part of the Church thus have no place within this context. I don't think it'd be a problem, but in what capacity is the Church lacking in regard to the multitude of Saints and Fathers she has birthed and nurtured, that one would find the need to pursue such an option? There are literally hundreds of Saints many of us have probably yet to learn the name of, let alone have given the time and chance to fall in love and be blessed with their life stories. Keeping to Orthodox Saints is the more proper, practical, and safer route to take (safer according to the fact that we cannot always be completely certain of those outside of the Church, regardless of how righteous and blessed they would appear on the surface).
I don't think it'd be a problem, but in what capacity is the Church lacking in regard to the multitude of Saints and Fathers she has birthed and nurtured, that one would find the need to \pursue such an option? There are literally hundreds of Saints many of us have probably yet to learn the name of, let alone have given the time and chance to fall in love and be blessed with their life stories. Keeping to Orthodox Saints is the more proper, practical, and safer route to take (safer according to the fact that we cannot always be completely certain of those outside of the Church, regardless of how righteous and blessed they would appear on the surface).
i agree. if you allready have the good things close to you and almost in front of eyes, why would u go search for others that are far away and that are not even on the same direction.
Does anyone know what exactly is the process of Canonization of Saints, in the COC?
Ok speaking of Saints
Does anyone know what exactly is the process of Canonization of Saints, in the COC?
one big part of the process is the passing of 50 yrs after the saint's death.
So that would mean that Pope Kyrillos and Abouna Abd El Messieh El Manahery aren't Saints?
not official or canonized saints. but they are in fact respected as their ranks. Pope Kerrolos as a Pope, and Fr. Abdel-messeh as a monk and a priest.
the second part for them to be saints are witnesses upon there holiness, wonders, and miracle. which had heppend form many saint including Pope Kerrolos and Fr. Shenouda.