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How far can i change?
hi ppl,
ive got to give a friday meeting talk with the title HOW FAR CAN I CHANGE?........Id love ideas from all of you.....lets get a debate going!......do u think we can fully change or only partially change?:)
thnx
Peter
ive got to give a friday meeting talk with the title HOW FAR CAN I CHANGE?........Id love ideas from all of you.....lets get a debate going!......do u think we can fully change or only partially change?:)
thnx
Peter
Comments
take Saint moses the BLAK....
was there anything left that he DIDNT CHANGE....
thats true that through god we can do everything....but its not that easy....much easier to say than do......i mean...in a normal daily living.....ill giv u an example...say a drug addict that gets admitted 2 prison.....addicted to heroin....while in prison he dusnt get that much drugs in there so hi tolerance is much less....but wen he cums out of prison his friends wud supply him with heroin nd even tho he dusnt need that much nemore hell still take it just cos his friends do it...nd all his frineds r in2 drugs......nd der r many stories where these ppl collapse nd sumtimes die cos der body isnt used 2 de drug nemore!......theyll hav 2 change friends.....area theyr livin in....nd start a new life COMPLETELY....das just an xtreme....but de same applies in skool or uni...wen sum1 is known 2 b a party animal who goes out wit his mates clubbing everydya...itll b hard 4 him 2 change 2 sum quiet person that stays home at nite nd prays nd read sde bible instead of gettin drunk...hell find it hard 2 tell his friends im not going out becaus eim at home praying!...mayb we can change but not fully....mayb 60-70 % change?.....wot do ppl think?
im saying that if u are in a bad habbit, or u do incorrect things, u chan change only through the help and will of god-----only is u are willing to change
thats is another importat matter. Are we willing to change becuase as humans, it is difficult. we are tied down to our montonous lives and cannot get out of the routine of life
jus my 2 cents
Forever,
Coptic Servent
Forever,
Coptic Servent
Many of the Great Fathers said that God become man in order that man may become god. In essence, this soteriological principle known as theosis, entails that when God became incarnate, He deified humanity and human experience, such that by the Grace of God (as opposed to by nature) we become as gods - which is nothing more than the perfect image and likeness of God, partkers of the divine nature, and perfectly conformed to the image of The Son of God.
You are right why, passion also to change, but I disagree with you, most of the time it's peer pressure, your peers pressure you into changing your environment and so!
Forever,
Coptic Servent
im sorry but i disagreee...it is not peer pressure...for the word peer pressure means u doing whatever the others are even IF U DO NOT AGREE WITH IT...and u cannot COMLETELY change ur self with something u may not agreee with ...NO WAY...im sorry..
but i wouldnt say PEER PRESSEURE would help in having a complete transform!!
Passion and Will to do something toward your spiritual life is definetly it. If you love God and you want Him in your life again, you are going to be willing to change your way of life, your way of sins, and everything that is farthering you away from God.
As the examples peterasaad gave. I am not really sure if you can change to extremes like how you said it, but I think it slowly progress and that is also on the will that you want to change your lifestyle and get away from bad habits (drugs or partying too much). So it really depend on the person and what they want their life to be once they saw the consequences of their bad behaviours (jail time for drugs).
One thing that really irritates me personally, especially about the forum members of this website, is that they treat the forum as more of a place to throw in a personal opinion or to engage in casual chat/conversation. This is an Orthodox Christian forum - and hence, ideally, it should be a place where subejcts of religious significance are discussed within an Orthodox Christian framework; this means, that we engage with specifically Orthodox ideas, history, theology, doctrine etc. when formulating our argument or putting forth our position.
This discussion is so off track that it's almost bordering on heresy; not because of intention, but rather because of ignorance. I am sorry to be harsh. Have any of you heard of the pelagian controversey? I would seriously like someone to do some research on it, seriously, and then i'd like that person or persons to come and tell me what's wrong with this thread, and what related aspect of this subject of one transforming themselves to in order to be saved, is not sufficiently being emphasised enough. I mean it; let's try this as an excercise.
I do not mean to sound condascending, nor do I think that I am better than anyone, but I would like to see a shift in this forum which is really going downhill. I'd like to see people try a bit harder; i'd like to see people make an input, not just because they want to waste time or because they have nothing better else to do, or because they think its fun forming arbitrary opinions in order to formulate an arbitrary discussion, but because they really take these issues seriously and because they truly feel they have some valuable insight they can share. I'd like to see people try a little bit and put in some effort. Your effort is not measured by how long your posts are or how many posts you type, it is measured by the careful thought and research you put behind it, and the ultimate output quality.
Forgive me if I have offended anyone, for that is not my intention. My intention is to see a positive change in 90% of the members of this forum, most of whom are long established. I would like to see the youth of our Church take their beliefs and doctrines seriously. I would like to see the youth of this discussion forum take the subjects brought up seriously. I'd like to see learning and growth; not senseless speculation and meaningless chatter.
thnx for your contributions. I have been thinking about this topic for a bit. I want to share with you what i have....and you to give me your opinions about it plz:)....
The aspect of the question we have all been discussing so far is how far can we change in relation to ACTIONS & LIFESTYLES. As many of you put forward it probably is possible to fully change as long as we have passion in what we do and most importantly let god change us.
However the aspect we have all been neglecting is how far can we change OUR PERSONALITIES.....and the way we THINK. I was talking to someone about this and she said that our personality=environment x genetics......and the example she gave me was Hitler. She said Hitler was bad because of his genetics and the environment around him and there is no changing that and if anyone of us were in his position we would be doing the same. What do you ppl think about this?
We have all probably seen or been in an argument where someone comes out and says: Its not my fault, i cant change my personlity, its just the way i am!.......Now what does everyone think about this phrase?
Another thing i would like everyone to think about to themselves before answering this.....imagine u grow older and die......and ur in ur funeral.....wot would you want ppl to say about u?.....wot type of guy do you want to be remembered as?.....is that what you are now?...do you have to change?....can you change?....how far?...only actions? the way you dress?what you do?....or also personality?...and the way you actually think?..
I hope i made it clearer what im looking for in this discussion.....i am looking forward to your replies:)
Pray 4 me
Peter
Forever,
Coptic Servent
If you carry out this Church Servant meeting based on the discussion that has taken place in this thread, you will be misleading the people you are addressing (that is, if they don't know any better). No one here has got it right unfortunately. I would give you the answer, but I choose not to, primarily because my previous post has been ignored. If you are taking this meeting seriously, and would like to take it in the right direction then I suggest that you do some research on the pelagian controversey and the Incarnation. You have not even mentioned let alone emphasised the primary factor most pertinent to this whole subject. Consistent and exclusive references to our own free will, passion, genetics, and our environment, makes it sound as if we're atheists.
I researched on the pelagian controversey, and as I understood that it's more of God's work than it is a free will to change, I am guessing that's more what your answer was going to lean toward, so your welcome to correct me on that if I misunderstood what I was reading.
I was going more toward free will, because I thought that was it, and I didn't think we were predestined to everything in our life. I don't know maybe I am confusing predestination with God's work, so if you would clarify that please. Thanks.
God Bless.
I will refrain from providing an answer for the moment because I would honestly like many of our usual members to change their habits and put in some effort for once (again I stress, that I do not speak to any member specifically nor even the members of this specific thread specifically, but rather I speak generally).
What makes this issue all the more important, is that the Pelagian heresy was in fact one of the heresies condemned by the Third Ecumenical Council (Ephesus 431). Many of the above comments can be mistaken for pelagianism because they fail to make sufficient qualification with respect to the role of God's Grace in our transformation, and its interaction with our free will.
It's very atheistic to simply point to one's social, cultural, political, familial or economic environment, or one's genetic construct, to consequently propose that these factors will determine how passionate we are about changing, and that this passion or drive ultimately shapes our will which ultimately results in our change. It almost sounds like God is either non-existent, or that He is very weak.
2 Cor 5,17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things have become new.
Christ took our human nature, and was perfect.
Through His redemptive work and the grace of the Holy Spirit and the new nature we receive in baptism, we have been given power through Christ, to become perfect (this is even a command!!).
Now, your genes or social status or any of this kind is no excuse not to be in Christ, and become a new creature!!!
That's a major point within Christianity:
I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me.
We had a discussion before about homosexuality being genetic, and we came to the conclusion that its not relevant whether it is genetic, because it is no excuse to sin. If i by genetics have a personality with no patience, is that an excuse not to obtain that virtue??
Conclusion, i can change without limits, because i change by the power of Christ (who gives grace during struggle against sin), and Christ is limitless in His power!!! http://www.aplacefortruth.org/essays/appendix1.htm
Iqbal, can u check if these points are reliable and correct?
Pelagianism to me seems to say that we do good only because we are born with the potential to become good and basicaly become saved by our own works (without the grace of God), kinda the exact opposite of what a lot of protestants would say.
Consequently it would also contradict this whole post that we can change through the grace of God totally, when we struggle against sin and strive towards theosis!!
(iqbal, feel free to correct me at any time if there's anything controversial in my post ;D)
As God said “ I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruits; for apart from me you can do nothing. “ John 15:5. This is a very strong response to any claim that we can, by our own efforts, improve our self, and that other outside forces like politics, genetics, environment or economy can affect us.
We need to talk about many points:
What is the meaning of Salvation?, Because Our Church defines it as a state of man being in God, all the time, until he achieves it fully in Eternity.
What is the meaning of Semi- Plagianism?, because I think, correct me if I am wrong, Plagian Heresy, now, can be seen in Buddhism who struggle to achieve the goodness from within apart from God’ help. I think St. Augustine defended the Church’s Faith against this heresy by writing many books to emphasize on total depravity and the corruption of man's nature. Actually I want to know more about Semi- Plagianism,
Your effort is not measured by how long your posts are or how many posts you type, it is measured by the careful thought and research you put behind it, and the ultimate output quality.
Very well put Iqbal, sorry I ignored your post before, but I was in such a rush, that I didn't want to read a 4-paragraphed post, but I didn't know that you put your thoughts into this post, I liked what you said about effort, you are right, it is measured by your effort, and even if it's a 4-worded post it can still mean something!
Forever,
Coptic Servent