edited December 1969 in Faith Issues
hi everyone
how is eveyone doing?
i'm really confused and i need the right explantion
because i have bible but in the same time it's bible study and even though it's new king james and when i asked about it they told me that ok this version the church use it
but i was reading this part in the bible
Matthew 1:18-25 but i didn't like the explanation somehow because it say
1:25 Joseph did not know Mary Physically until she gave birth to jesus. The clear implication of this verse is that Mary was as virgin only until the birth of Jesus. The brothers and sisters of Jesus were probably younger siblings born to Joseph and Mary after Jesus born{13:55,56)
I felt that a wrong explantion
do you guys know good bible study other than orthodox bible study
a bible study but for the new and old testment also
because i think this explanation it's protestant bible study


  • There's nothing wrong with the translation. It simply states that up until the moment that St Mary gave birth, there had been no physical relationship between her and Joseph, hence the fact that St Mary gave birth to Christ as a Virgin.

    The word "until", is usually used in different senses in the english language.

    1) In the technical sense, it simply accounts for the period "up until that particular time or moment".
    2) In its wider sense, it further implies that once "that particular time or moment" eventuates, the event or incident in question is capable of coming into being after.

    For example: if I say "I cannot play basketball until 12 pm", this can be taken according to either one of the above defined senses of the term "until":

    1) That up until the time of 12 pm, I cannot play baskeyball. Period (i.e. no further implications).
    2) That up until the time of 12 pm, I cannot play basketball, however, after 12 pm I may play basketball"

    Regarding the verse in question, the Greek term translated to "until" does not necessarily carry the further implications inherent in 2). The only conclusive information that may be derived from the verse is simply that up until the point St Mary gave birth, there had been no physical relationships with Joseph, without any implications regarding physical relationships eventuating after the birth of Christ.
  • Nice answer Iqbal. Allow me to paste this quoted text from Fr Tadros fine book "Saint Mary In The Orthoodox Concept", Chapter 1:


    Aaron’s rod, in fact, is Mary. It is a type of her virginity. She conceived and bore the Son of the Most High, the Word, without human seed.
    Theotokia of Sunday.

    Biblical Reality

    The virginity of St. Mary is not a matter of her own private life, but rather a ‘biblical reality’, which belongs with our faith in Jesus Christ. For when the Word of God was Incarnated, He was not particular about the kind of place where he would be cradled, or the clothes He would wear, or the food He would eat; but He was definitely very particular about the Virgin who was to be His mother.

    The prophet Isaiah gives us a prophetic sign of the Virginal Birth.
    “Behold, the Virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and His name shall be called Emmanuel.”

    Here the text refers to St. Mary the virgin mother of Emmanuel, directly and literally. It is very accurate, describes St. Mary’s state as being virgin and engaged at the same time.
    For the Hebrew term used for “virgin” is ‘almah’ and not ‘betulah’ nor ‘issa’. The word ‘almah’ means a virgin maiden who may be engaged, while ‘betulah’ means a virgin who is not engaged. The word ‘issa’ means a married lady.

    If the Scripture uses the word ‘issa’, it does not signify an extraordinary miracle about to be performed by God. (Isaiah 7:10,11), for the married woman can conceive and bear a son. If it uses the word ‘betulah’, it does not describe the state of St. Mary, who was engaged to St. Joseph. But it uses the word ‘almah’, which fits her state accurately, as a virgin and engaged to St. Joseph who protected her and became a faithful witness of her chastity, leaving no chance for any doubts or suspicion.

    It is worth noting that this word ‘almah’ is etymologically used in this sentence to mean the continuation of the state of virginity, and for this reason it has been translated ‘the virgin’, and not ‘a virgin’, to describe the Emmanuel's mother as the virgin even after her child's birth.

    Another prophet confirms St. Mary's perpetual virginity, as he says:
    “When he brought me back the way of the gate of the outward sanctuary which looked towards the east, it was shut.
    Then the Lord said to me: This gate shall be shut, it shall not be opened, and no man shall pass through it, because the Lord, the God of Israel, has entered by it, therefore it shall be shut. It is for the prince; the prince himself shall sit in it...”
    (Ezk. 44: 1-3).

    This sealed eastern gate is a figure of St. Mary's perpetual virginity. For the Lord alone entered her womb, and this gate was never opened to another; its seals were not broken.
    In this effect the Coptic Church sings the following hymn:
    “Ezekiel witnessed and told us:
    I have seen an eastern gate.
    The Lord, the Saviour entered it,
    and it remains shut as it was before”.

    One of the titles given to the Virgin Mary in the Byzantine rite is: “Hail O unique gate, through which only the Word passed”.

    This text specifically answers your question (same chapter, later):

    Marriage or Betrothal !!

    According to the Jewish tradition, the nuptial consists of two steps: betrothal and marriage proper. After certain financial arrangements, the couple were betrothed to one another in the house of the bride. The betrothal was in every respect equivalent to our marriage except without any sexual relationship. The betrothed woman was called the man’s wife; and she became widow if her betrothed died, and she claimed the financial settlement accorded to a wife when widowed or divorced. In case of infidelity she was liable to the same punishment as an adulterous wife. Like a wife she could not be dismissed without a bill of divorce.

    If the betrothed woman had not been married previously, she usually waited a year before the second step, the marriage proper, was taken. Now, we can understand why St. Mary was called “St. Joseph’s wife”, although they were betrothed and not married.

    Someone might ask if there was an agreement between St. Mary and St. Joseph to live in virginity even after the second step of marriage was taken? St. Augustin confirms this in his comment on St. Mary’s question to the angel: “How shall this be since I know not man!?” (Luke 1:34), saying:
    “Surely she would not say that, unless she had previously vowed her virginity to God” and intended to keep it.


    Helvidius, in the fourth century, used the sentence of St. Matthew 1:25 “and he did not know her till she brought forth her firstborn Son”, to indicate that the gospel opposed the perpetual virginity of St. Mary, as Jesus was her firstborn Son Who had other brothers, also sons of Mary.
    St. Jerome answered: “It is the custom of the Scriptures to designate with the title “firstborn” not one who subsequently has brothers or sisters, but one who is born first”. (See: Exod. 34: 19-20) As St. Jerome stated so trenchantly, from scriptural sources, “Every only child is a firstborn child but not every firstborn is an only child”.
    Likewise, the expression “he did not know her until she brought forth her firstborn Son” by no means necessarily implies that St. Joseph “Knew her” after the birth of Christ. For the term “until” does not in any way prejudicate what may happen in the future. For example, when the Scripture states “No son was born to Michol, the daughter of Saul until her dying day”, it does not mean that she bore a son after her death.

    This book is a real gem it covers all such questions.
  • i'm also confused about this explanation when it say The brothers and sisters of Jesus were probably younger siblings born to Joseph and Mary after Jesus born{13:55,56)
    i want to know if this explanation right or wrong
    that what i read in the bible study the one i have now
    probley i was wrong to buy it from the beginning but i didn't know
    what do you guys think?
    i'm confused because of the meeting they were talking about St.Mary and they said if she had children after Jesus how come when it came the part when he was on the Cross he told John here is your mom take care of her something like if she had children isn't would better for her children to take care of her instat of St.John
    Is that clear enough to you guys you guys get what i'm trying to say
    what do you guys think?
  • There are examples in the Holy Bible where the word till or until were meant continuity rather to certain time.

    The LORD says to my LORD: "Sit at my right hand, till I make your enemies your footstool." Psalm 110 : 1

    In this versa the Heavenly Father is speaking to Our Lord Jesus Christ. There is no concept of time between the Hypostasis “ Persons “, because they are beyond time, however the word till or until was used . It did not mean that the state of sitting at the right hand of the Father is timed or limited to the subjection of the enemies to His footstool, but rather meant to the state of continuity.
  • the phrase "brothers and sisters" probably meant his cousins. in that age, it was very normal to call your cousin a brother and/or a sister...
  • guys i have this bible study i want to know if you guys know if it's good or not
    New King James Version
    Built Year life on it
    Study Bible
    Personal Size
    Featuring Nelson's complete Study System to bring you the Finest Study Bible Ever

    I feel the explanation it's protestant
    guys i need your advice
    should i keep it and read it or get it away
    because i really don't want to mis up my mind
    do you guys have this bible study?
    should i keep going with it or stop reading from it

  • my dad told me this " when he told john to take care of his mom (somthing like that is don't have the bible right now) he meant his spritual mom!! when i'm is trouble i always hold st.mary's pic with jesus close to my heart and pray just like i'm talking to my regular mom!!

    does that help
    my dad is better at explaning thing than me!!
  • i also agree with Christ4Life because do u remember that when st.mary left to go to the temple her mom had anthor daughter and her childern was called the brothers and sisters of jesus so when they brothers and sister of jesus they mean his cousins!!

  • Thanks Everyone ;D
    I believe that St.Mary is Virgin and I truly believe in that
    but when i read this explanation in the bible study i was troubled and i didn't like the explanation because it seems as protestant belief so i decide not read it again.
    as MarMar91 mention that it could be from St.Joseph previous marriage
    but how come the bible study didn't mention that at all and it say as the following:- probley young silblings born to Joseph and Mary after Jesus born
    it should say only Joseph
    I mean St.Mary all her life been in the altar and in the church and she devoted her life to God before and ofcouse after because she already have the kings of kings i mean she won't even think to have children after that also after she taste the beauty of praises and prayers.
    guys i gave you the information of what bible study i have
    your advice should i keep reading from it or just stop reading from it.
    that my question now
  • guys how do i know if this bible study use by our church or not
    it's good resources or not
    because i get it from the monastery
    should i use it or stop using
    one of my friend told me about the student bible study
    guys i need your advice if you guys know a better bible study let me know so i can get it
    other than the orthodox bible study why? because it's only for the new testment and i want bible study for the whole bible
    the bible study that i have now it's bible and also a bible it explan every verse in spiritual meaning deep explanation
    thanks guys
    and keep me in your prayer ;D
  • one of my friend told me about this book
    Nelson's Extreme Teen Bible
    have u guys saw this book
    what the different between the book i use and this book
    and there is another one for students
    which one is better
  • [quote author=Christ4Life link=board=1;threadid=3154;start=0#msg47058 date=1139086606]
    the phrase "brothers and sisters" probably meant his cousins. in that age, it was very normal to call your cousin a brother and/or a sister...

    thats extremly true

    there was a documentary about this issue on abc once whether jesus had brothers and sisters, because there are so many examples in the bible that state his 'brothers and sisters' they came to the conclusion that they were close family relatives or friends, similar to how today we say father to a priest and brother to a man who is about to become a monk. we say sister to abounas wife and we say tasuni (sister) to nuns

    so its similar
  • i just like to add something very quick
    the word in English which "till it's not that clear neither in Arabic which "hata"
    but in Greek meaning the word " till " means "even though"
    that will make the sentence sound much better
    i hope that help ;D

  • thanks bentelkenesia ;D
    that make it clear and i got it
    thanks everyone
  • these captures are from Fr Tadros fine book "Saint Mary In The Orthoodox Concept", Chapter 1, pages 30-32:
  • (Fr Tadros please forgive me.)

    I wanted to put these pages as they were edited for the sake of credibility because some Protestants may use these verses against Theotokos St Mary trying to prove their twisted ideas, they even use it as argument that only their doctrine is correct, based on the Gospel verses. They hope this technique could cause some people to doubt in or weaken their Orthodox faith.
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