• I totally disagree with you because if you read John 2:10 you will this "And he said to him, "Every man at the beginning sets out the good wine, and when the guests have well drunk, then the inferior. You have kept the good wine until now!"
    So if the wine was good as non-alcoholic than how did they get drunk??????

    I agree! In the days of Jesus, there were no soft drinks and thus people drank wine .The wine was actually alcoholic but not extremely concentrated/strong.

    John 2:10- there have been some debates about this verse,
    Some say that the alcohol sobered up the people (had reverse effect- instead of getting them drunk it made them sober)
    What do you guys think?
  • Its too hard to assume the wine was non-alcoholic but I have heard some priests say that it was. In reality the copts in our early church drank wine and there are stories in the desert fathers about monks and one when even one of the popes drank wine, could you imagine if that happened today???!?

    These inhibitions only started after the invasion of islam but our traditional fathers didn't practice total prohibition.

    Anyways I leave you all to your thoughts.

    God bless,

  • what is alcohol? (plz, for the love of God, do not give me a dictionary answer)
    why was alcohol founded? what was it made for?
    since alcohol is known for being dangerous to the body when it is taken into the body... do u think that Jesus would harm ur body like that and give u alcoholic wine?
    also, we cant exactly say that we know it was alcoholic, becasue none of us were alive at that time and it doesnt imply anything in the bible...
    now... i'm about to contradict myself here by using Noah's example, cause he obviously had wine, that must have had something in it to make him drunk... with the possibility of being alcohol... or maybe the grape drinks back then were just to strong for the man... like caffiene is today (if that makes any sense lol :-\ )

    "Now the sons of Noah who went out of the ark were Shem, Ham, and Japheth. And Ham was the father of Canaan. These three were the sons of Noah, and from these the whole earth was populated. 20 And Noah began to be a farmer, and he planted a vineyard. 21 Then he drank of the wine and was drunk, and became uncovered in his tent. And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brothers outside. But Shem and Japheth took a garment, laid it on both their shoulders, and went backward and covered the nakedness of their father. Their faces were turned away, and they did not see their father's nakedness. So Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done to him. Then he said: "Cursed be Canaan; A servant of servants He shall be to his brethren." And he said: "Blessed be the Lord, The God of Shem, And may Canaan be his servant. May God enlarge Japheth, And may he dwell in the tents of Shem; And may Canaan be his servant." "
    Genesis 9:18-27

    so it didnt take a lot of temptation to get Noah drunk and naked... Noah! the man who built an ark and stayed at sea for the longest time in human history!!!
    the man whom we are all descendants of!
    he fell... what makes u think ull be stronger...?

    i dont think i can post this verse ONE MORE TIME! and u guys still continue to over look it...:
    Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come. [glow=red,2,300]Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall.[/glow]
    1 Corinthians 10:11-12
    im done...
    for now at least....
  • You all need to stop fooling yourselves. If you saw a four year old drinking some alcoholic drink, be it wine, beer, whiskey, whatever, would you merely accept it. Would it be something ordinary? Of course not, you would be appalled. Why? Because “it’s not something a four year old should be doing”; because it’s wrong when you’re young. So since when is it alright to do something that’s wrong when you’re older but not when you are younger? Should I not curse while I am a toddler but once I turn the age of 21, I can have a mouth as foul as a truck driver? Absolutely not! What is wrong when you are young is wrong when you are older. Therefore if you find it wrong for babies to drink alcohol, it’s wrong for you to drink it also. And in the event you think it’s perfectly okay for children to have alcohol, regardless of the amount; then something is seriously wrong with you.
  • I completely agree with Mark, I think alcohol is something that makes you impure, you eventually become enslaved to that stupid bottle, I've known a guy that used to drink just some with friends, but now, he is a complete alcoholic, he doesn't believe in Church and he only thinks of God as SomeOne who will make him more money to buy more flippin alcohol, his life is destroyed and he never goes to Church anymore, not only that but when he's drunk, he thinks of others as his slaves and thinks that by drinking, he has reached a superior level in which (esta3'far Allah) even heaven cannot control him....what's sad id that he came of a family so close to God, which kinda leads to the "Parental rope wrapped around kids affect them later in life"

    Now, he's dying a painful and slow death.....in sin.....with the destination that is not very pleasent, HELL! Please pray 4 him.....

  • I disagree mark and (I know as ironic as it sounds after all the windups) I have to go back to the example of dating. :P

    As a teenager our personalities, bodies and minds are still being developed and there is no consistancy so we're not in a state when we can date because we are unable to take on the responsibility in a serious and logical fashion. I mean that as a teen the things and people I like one day may be completely different by next month, in addition to other things.

    At this time dating is wrong but when I'm older I nhave new sense of responsibility and personal stability so I can approach dating in a sensible fashion that I couldn't before. This is the same reason we can't give children alcohol, because they are irresponsible and may abuse it but when we're older we are more responsible and can approach these things in a more disiplined way.

    Our bishop in melbourne has told us we can drink alcohol if it is done in a sensible way and at sensible times. I also mentioned before that our fathers before the invasion of islam drank alcohol, there is a multitude of this proof, the change was forced upon us by the invasion is islam and its traditions but in the begining it wasn't like this.

    Alcohol is like money, money may be the root of all evil but I don't see anyone throwing away all their money because it can be abused? It can be evil but it isn't evil of itself. If you personally feel its wrong then don't drink it, H.H. Pope Shenouda said once if your bishop asks you to do something and it is against your concience then don't do it because you are judged according to your concience and not according to your bishop.

    No one at any stage has encouraged binge drinking or abuse, that is why it has to be done at a correct age when there is a sense of responsibility towards something that if taken in large quantities can be dangerous. This also includes inhibitions of stong drinks and so on.

    At the end of the day our church fathers (there is a story about st. Marcarius) drank wine, we were forced not to by social circumstances and all other orthodox churches outside the moslem world allow alcohol to be drank in a mature and sensible way. There is no point in acting like we're still living in egypt, we're not and there is no point in adhering to the culture they had there 30 years ago.

    God bless you all,

  • Doesn't mean ur out of Egypt ur out of God's sight...

    Don't u think muslims exist for a reason??

  • Hi Defender,

    Holding onto these traditions has huge problems since we are now in a forigen culture and we will be accpeting converts from different places and we have to accomodate them. Our father already do this and let them do things we are restricted from, let me provide examples.

    Anba Antonius Morcos preaches in Africa and he allows them to have forigen choirs that play drums and when he was asked if we could do the same he was very stern and said no. This is because in their culture they can do this okay but to us it is an issue and it is the same with the Indian Orthdox who have dances that they use to recount stories about saints as part of their tradition as the Catholics came in and burned all their books.

    Also Pope shenouda once came to australia and made this statement "you are coptic australians" NOT coptic egyptians...

    Another example is in the recent missionary work in fiji when Anba Surial went to meet a tribe there they were drinking a drink called cava which is very intoxicating. Sayedna never drank it himself because of what we would think but he allowed them to drink it because it is something that is okay in their culture and they do it responsibly because of how dangerous it is if it is taken in large quantities.

    We don't live in Egypt anymore and if people convert to our religon we can't force on them our cultural ideal of right and wrong....

    Suppose I was an Indian Orthodox lady with a pierced nose, which is okay in india, would you refuse them communion? I don't think so, you can't penalise them for our own moral inhibitions, granted if they lived in egypt they'd have to live like an egyptian and take it off but if it happens in a land of immigration where there are no other churches its not fair to be that constrictive.

    I don't mean to offend you defender, in egypt they shouldn't change because that is how they were brought up and that is the best way for them to act in that culture. In our lands of immigration we need to taylor our moral standards so that we can accomodate people from other cultures so they can be virtuous hebrews, asians, philippinos or whatever rather than virtuous egyptians which is adding an extra bruden to them.

    God bless

  • im gonna have to disagree with u buddy...
    we're not talking about something as simple as a nose pierce or signifcant as a choir/band... or as religously incorporated as indian dances
    what would make drinking right in any culture? just because our forefathers drank, doesnt make it right, does it?
    i mean maybe then it was okay because they didnt live in the world we live today...
    i dont mean to be offensive when i say that we need to face reality here and realize that a simple drink in "moderate" amounts isnt just a "SIMPLE" drink
    first, why are u drinking this drink? whats ur motivation?
    why indulge into this alcholic drink that is not necessary
    we lived without it in egypt... what makes it different in lands of immigration?
    just as a small example that we can all relate to...
    clothes and style... now we all see the new fashions wiht clothes and skirts and dresses and swimwear, and for the love of God! even undergarments!
    do we become australian or american copts and wear this gross clothes?
    or do we act like proper christians and stick to our decent length skirts and pants that properly fit on the waist line?
    so what are we doing here? are we simply following the culture we live in for the sake of spreading the word of the Copts??!!

    Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.
    James 1:12
  • People remember:

    "....Lead us not into tempation..."

    Why then are we leading ourselves into some???

  • they actually do drink in egypt too. i think its ok to drink if u go to a wedding or a party and have a glass of champagne or wine to celebrat, but not on a daily basis, and not to drink for the sake of drinkin or to get drunk. whether or not a person shud drink is between them and God.
  • Are we Christians or are we people celebrating a religous sacrament with alcohol which just so happens to be used for the same reason of getting drunk?
  • Hi SMS,

    I'm not going to be able to explain this to you because your thinking like an Egyptian Christian not like a pure Christian.

    Can you perhaps advise why our ancestors like St. Macarious drank wine and then systematise that into your argument. Why it was okay then but not now.

    God bless,

  • FOR THE MILLIONTH TIME SMS: Christ's Blood is not alcohol neither does it contain any...

    Remember, b4 it's Blood, Pure 100% Blood, it's wine mixed with water......

  • Hi Defender,

    Yes it is Body and Blood but its still in the form of bread and wine say you have an intollerance to glutin or alcohol, taking it would kill you! :o

  • hi all,

    Strange no one ever mensioned the benefits of alcohol (cleaning the Liver to mension one).Alochol is also an active ingrediant in alot of medicine. It just showes how one sided this discussion can be. :(

    Well if you haven't guessed, I believe in Self control,in the ability to have the occasional drink, One of the saints once said, control everything but let nothing control you, n this case, drik moderatly if you like and let it not get out of hand, drunkness is sin, but there is no mension in the bible against drinking at all.

    Let us be realistic, inthe wedding of Galile, when they spoke about the good wine being offered after they have been drunk, it has the same meaning as when jesus said do not mix wilth adultress, Durnkades, theives etc... drunk is not an ambegious, it only means to be intoxicated with alcohol

    Just because people get drunk, that it mean little drinking is ethically bad, we all know that anything that is overdone is for the bad effect... oversleeping, overdrinking and even overserving.

    [move]USE IT, DON'T ABUSE IT[/move]
  • Actually Peet alcohol is not beneficial to your liver the least bit. In fact it’s quite damaging. The reason for this is because unlike other things we drink, alcohol isn’t digested. It is sent directly into your blood stream and eventually your liver is the organ who will be left with the responsibility to break down whatever alcohol you have consumed. This causes inflammation of your liver which is very serious and can lead to several other life threatening diseases. Along with liver inflammation studies have shown that those who drink alcohol are at a much higher risk for high blood pressure, stroke, and liver cancer. Along with that, alcohol, even in the most mild form and insignificant quantities has been known to cause stomach upset and irritability.

    As for positive aspects of alcohol, it is used in medicines, only as a reactant. The only other positive aspect that I can think of is cleansing of the kidneys (I think you might have meant that) the reason it cleanses your kidneys is because it spurs the urge to urinate. Since our kidneys play a significant role in our excretory system, they inadvertently benefit from this; but at what cost? Would you rather have no liver and good kidneys? What else could we drink to strengthen our kidneys, hmmmmm, hmmmmm, WATER! It works just as well.

    “Whoever drinks of this water will thirst again, but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life." John 4

    Seeeee water is gooood. Drink water, not alcohol! The drawbacks significantly outweigh any benefits. Booo for booze.

  • Actually red wine if drank in moderation (say a couple a glasses a day) lowers the risk of heart attacks...

    God bless,

  • Allow me to quote myself
    [quote author=Mark423 link=board=1;threadid=298;start=15#msg2731 date=1085791546]
    ... Don’t give me that “French people live longer” story. I’ve heard it and it has nothing to do with the glass of wine they have with dinner. Extensive studies have shown that there are several factors in the diets of the French that might lead to their prolonged life; since Americans like to drink heavily they thought it would be a nice idea to correlate it with the wine so it would be “okay” to get drunk...

    This is a common worldwide folly. The reason this myth came to pass was all due to a “60 minutes” episode titled “The French Paradox”. Ever since that episode aired it has been common for people to justify any drinking by associating it with a longer life. Lets also take into consideration that French people eat 30% more fat, smoke more, and get much less exercise; yet sill manage to live longer. To wrap this up, since we find it beneficial to mimic the lifestyles of French, should be also become obese nicotine addicted couch potatoes? That’s all up to you guys…

  • Mark. I personally believe this thread should be closed now. This is going no where. The Chrurch is not against drinking its against how people drink.

    It is banned in egypt but this is not a dogma or a theological rule, its a spiritual rule that suits the populus in Egypt.

    Lets just call it quits here. Its right for some and its not right for others but what is never okay is forcing your views on someone else as we live in a church where faith is the source of our salvation, the issue whether or not someone believe is trust in church rules. Its not an intellectual thing that can be won on the strength of arguments alone. You obviously believe one way and that not appropriate for everyone.

    My Bishop says we can drink responsibly and I follow his rule. Half of my family is Greek orthodox and they have always drank in a respectible way at gatherings and I have never seen any of them get drunk. H.H. says if you feel in your concience you can't do this then follow your concience, you are judged according to your concience not according to your Bishop.

    Lets just call it quits here.

    God bless you,

  • I’ve never been one to quit.
  • Its not a matter of quitting. I just find that your not willing to answer the point I offer and keep attacking the views I present as the mother of immorality. If you had answers I would like to learn but because there is nothing to be gained I'll leave it up to anyone who wants to continue. I'm out!

    God bless,

  • [quote author=CopticSoldier link=board=1;threadid=298;start=45#msg3069 date=1086437973]
    Actually red wine if drank in moderation (say a couple a glasses a day) lowers the risk of heart attacks...

    God bless,


    At what point in that response did you ask a question? I was merely offering my view on that aspect of your argument.
  • I'm not going to be able to explain this to you because your thinking like an Egyptian Christian not like a pure Christian.

    Can you perhaps advise why our ancestors like St. Macarious drank wine and then systematise that into your argument. Why it was okay then but not now.

  • It was not okay then, and it’s not okay now. Let us take out any aspect of an Egyptian biased view and strictly look at it from a Christian manner. It is safe to say that is it possible for alcoholic drinks to have negative effects. Let’s take into consideration the story from the bible of the three girls who intoxicated their father and slept with him in order to conceive children. That is one of the effects that alcohol has had in the bible and it isn’t something that was seen as okay then or now. If something has the ability to cause such sin, why consume it in the first place. Why not look at the mistakes of others and learn from them rather then say we are strong and self righteous and that we can control our own actions. Do you think that anybody who has a drinking problem chooses this path? Do you think they woke up one morning and said: “I want to be addicted to alcohol, I want it to dominate my life, I want alcohol to have complete control over my life”? Of course not; it happens without your awareness. Nobody wants to be addicted and nobody chooses this path. It happens gradually and there have been loads of people who have said they had enough self control and then the unexpected happened. So rather than all of us thinking that we are above everyone else and thinking that everyone else has fallen but we won’t; we should have some common sense to stay away from something that is obviously the source of a lot of sin. None of us are better than another, if this misfortune has fallen upon one person; it can happen to any one of us also.

    I’m sorry if you think my responses are irrelevant CS. I hope I can change that.

  • Hi Mark,

    You responses are not irrelevent at all! You express a point of view that you will be accountable for on judgement day. I don't find that to be a problem.

    I offer you an apology for I've acted. :(

    They said of Macarius that if he was asked to eat among the brothers, he made a rule for himself that if wine was offered, he would drink it for the brothers sake: and then, for one cup of wine he would go without water for a whole day. Some brothers wanted to refresh him and gave him some wine. He took it with joy, so as later to punish himself. But his disciple, knowing the reason said to the brothers, 'For God's sake, I beg you, do not give him any wine. In the cell afterwards he pays for it with torment.' When the brothers heard this, they gave him no more wine.

    God bless,

  • [quote author=Defender! link=board=1;threadid=298;start=30#msg3051 date=1086409290]
    FOR THE MILLIONTH TIME SMS: Christ's Blood is not alcohol neither does it contain any...

    Remember, b4 it's Blood, Pure 100% Blood, it's wine mixed with water......


    when did i say ANYTHING about that defender? lol

    and Coptic Soldier:
    Hi SMS,

    I'm not going to be able to explain this to you because your thinking like an Egyptian Christian not like a pure Christian.

    Can you perhaps advise why our ancestors like St. Macarious drank wine and then systematise that into your argument. Why it was okay then but not now.

    God bless,


    well to be honest... i was born and raised n the states and have no idea what egyptians think considering i was thankfully born to very open-minded people and went to egypt once when i was 7 for 6 days (literally), so as for the egyptian aspect of thinking... i dont believe i have it.
    now, why is drinking alcohol wrong now?
    just stop arguing and open ur mind for a good 2 minutes and look around u in the world today
    there are broken homes from alcohol, broken spirits, used bodies, etc etc etcccc
    and it all started from one drink too... right or wrong?
    and as for ur concience... it was originally based upon the holy spirit, so whats the holy spirit telling us? GO DRINK ALCOHOL, IT APPARANTLY IS GOOD FOR UR KIDNEY BUT BAD FOR UR LIVER AND HEART...
    i dont think thats the message the Holy Spirit is giving us here, unless ur conciouseness has been changed and accustomed to the aspect of drinking...
    and one last thing... i dont see any one of us acting close to the label of "Saint" and if u are... God Bless You
    but then again, i dont c anyone in todays world punishing themselves as St Macarius did... if i was to drink a cup of wine or alcohol or whatever, i wouldnt think twice about going a day without a cup of water... cause i cant grasp that concept
    but if u can, by all means... go drink and be merry and punish urself for days on without water...
    but u said it urself, u have to drink or else u dehydrate!
    plus, i dont believe anybody has acknowledged my previous to last post...
    plus CS... u havent stated the advantages of drinking anywhere... i dont c y anyone would want to drink. whats the point?
  • Hi SMS,

    This is not about the advantages or disadvantages of drinking, drinking alcohol is not something that I recommend. I am trying to offer here that there was a point in time when egyptians drank alcohol, not that we can do so and torture ourselves. The story offers a very important point, yes it is destructive and if it is drank one should take great care to watch over themselves but the fact remains that he did drink it to humor other who presumably drank it as well and it was a common practice of his...

    God bless,

  • People, it depends on your faith, if you would be at risk to die from alcohol, and believed a 100% that what's on the Altar is Christ's Blood and Body, do u think God u'll die? I myself wouldn't, because I know that this is the Precious Blood of Christ and His Holy Flesh. No further discussion is needed since it's either ur on one side or the other, it's either u know and believe or u don't.

  • what are our values and morals supposed to be?
    why offer another point of view if we already know our own? i mean y take one saint and base ours upon his? the church always tells us to withstand temptations, even small ones and to say no to anything that goes against our own morals... so why bother?
    i still dont understand what the point of drinking is...
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