• The Mormons consider themselves Christian, but the other Churches generally do not consider them Christian. The reason is that their belief on Jesus is different. They believe Jesus is a man who followed and obeyed God so much that God made Jesus a God as well. A sort of Arianism...

    On a side note, we should be careful when we talk about other people's religion. Whether Islam or Mormon or whatever, we should let them explain their beliefs instead of saying whatever we think. It is not fair when other religions attack us on misunderstanding, and we shouldn't do the same thing. Mormons in general, are well intentioned nice people. Although we believe they misunderstand God, the Mormons who are practicing are practicing what they think is true. Even though Joseph Smith or the early Mormons are heretical, the current Mormons are just misunderstood and lacking knowledge of Truth, the same goes for Lutherans and Muslims, I think.
  • one time a guy comes up to me and my sis in the bus and tells us that the book of mormons is about when jesus came to AMERICA. america wasn't even discovered back then!
  • I heard this too! >:( ???
  • The mormons think that Jesus appeared to their "prophet" Joseph Smith in the 1800s and gave him a golden book. Guess which book? No, not the Bible, the book of Mormon.
  • Not only that but they're belief is that eventually evryoen becomes a god, one of things that really get on my nerves though is that they say God punished some evil men for their bad deeds by making them blakc, and that's how black people came into existance!! ::)whatever!! lol

  • I don't think the current Mormons teach that Defender, although the original ones did. The modified their stance on marriage and a few other things too.
  • Thanks Sleepy, but don't you guys think they are going a little too far by producing books criticizing us in them and talking against us all the time??

    actually they have the right to. if we can print books criticizing Islam and Protestantism, then they have the right to print books about us. we are not superior to them or anyone else. wat they dont have the right to do is print things that are not true.

    pray 4 me guys! ;)
  • Thanks, Mike.

    Since your go a theology school could you please explain the ranks in their church.

    I heard that everyone eventually gets to priest rank and that in the church there's like a secret room or something.

    -[coptic]A42ena4 `e`p2wi `enif3ov`I: a4ovwrp nan `mpiparakl3ton: pi`pnevma `nte 5me0m3i: `am3n =al.[/coptic]

    Please Pray for ur unworthy brother in Christ (also plz pray for me to do good on the exams I have 3 left!),

    Mike (Defender)

  • Distinctive Beliefs of the Mormon Church

    Are Mormons Protestants? No, but their founder, Joseph Smith, came from a Protestant background, and Protestant presuppositions form part of the basis of Mormonism.

    Still, it isn’t correct to call Mormons Protestants, because doing so implies they hold to the essentials of Christianity—what C. S. Lewis termed "mere Christianity." The fact is, they don’t. Gordon B. Hinckley, the current president and prophet of the Mormon church, says (in a booklet called What of the Mormons?) that he and his co-religionists "are no closer to Protestantism than they are to Catholicism."

    That isn’t quite right—it would be better to say Mormons are even further from Catholicism than from Protestantism. But Hinckley is right in saying that Mormons are very different from Catholics and Protestants. Let’s examine some of these differences. We can start by considering the young men who come to your door.

    They always come in pairs and are dressed conservatively, usually in white shirts and ties. As often as not, they get from place to place by bicycle. They introduce themselves to you as Elder This and Elder That. The title "Elder" does not refer to their age (many are not even shaving regularly, yet) but means they hold the higher of the two Mormon priesthoods, the "Melchizedek" order. This priesthood is something every practicing Mormon male is supposed to receive at about age 18, provided he conforms to the standards of the church.

    The other priesthood—the Aaronic—is the lesser of the two and is concerned with the temporal affairs of the church, and its ranks are known as deacon, teacher, then priest.

    The Melchizedek priesthood is concerned mainly with spiritual affairs, and it "embrac[es] all of the authority of the Aaronic," explains Hinckley. The Melchizedek ranks are elder, seventy, and high priest. At age twelve boys become deacons and thus enter the "Aaronic priesthood."

    If the terms for the various levels of the Mormon priesthood are confusing, still more confusing is Mormonism’s ecclesiastical structure. The basic unit, equivalent to a very small parish, is the ward. Several wards within a single geographical area form a stake, which corresponds to a large Catholic parish. The head of each ward isn’t called a priest, as you might expect, but a bishop. A Mormon bishop can officiate at a civil marriage, but not at a "temple marriage," which can be performed only by a "sealer" in one of Mormonism’s temples.


    Mormons try to attract new members by projecting an image of wholesome family life in their circles. This is an illusion—Mormon Utah has higher than average rates for suicide, divorce, and other domestic problems than the rest of the country. And if Mormonism’s public image of large, happy families, and marriage bring to mind anything, it is polygamy.

    Hinckley explains that "Mormonism claims to be a restoration of God’s work in all previous dispensations. The Old Testament teaches that the patriarchs . . . had more than one wife under divine sanction. In the course of the development of the church in the nineteenth century, it was revealed to the leader of the church that such a practice should be entered into again." Although polygamy was permitted to Mormons, few practiced it. But enough did so to make polygamy the characteristic that most caught the attention of other Americans.

    Mormonism, you should understand, is one of those religions which is peculiarly American. (A few others come to mind immediately, such as the Jehovah’s Witnesses and Christian Science.) Although now spread beyond the borders of the United States, Mormonism is so tied to a certain brand of American nationalism that you couldn’t imagine the religion starting anywhere else.

    Mormonism: Made in America

    If many of today’s Fundamentalists are known for their belief that America is destined to play a key role in the events of the Last Days, Mormons are identified even more closely with America. The Mormons’ theory is that Christ also established his Church here, among the Indians, where it eventually flopped, as did his original effort in Palestine.

    The situation is somewhat similar to that of the Anglican church. In England, the Anglican church is not just the church of Englishmen; it is the Established Church. In theory, and even at times in practice, Parliament can decide what Anglicans are to believe officially and can make and unmake clerics of all grades, from the lowliest curate to the Archbishop of Canterbury. Just as Anglicanism is tied to England, so Mormonism is tied to the United States. Although it is not the established religion of this country, Mormonism has allowed itself to be modified by Congress.

    "In the late 1880s," says Hinckley, "Congress passed various measures prohibiting [polygamy]. When the Supreme Court declared these laws constitutional, the church indicated its willingness to comply. It could do nothing else in view of its basic teachings on the necessity for obedience to the law of the land. That was in 1890. Since then officers of the church have not performed plural marriages, and members who have entered into such relationships have been excommunicated."

    Before Congress acted, Mormons were convinced polygamy was not merely permissible, but positively good, for those "of the highest character who had proved themselves capable of maintaining more than one family." (Section 132 of Doctrine and Covenants is officially subtitled this way: "Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Nauvoo, Illinois, recorded July 12, 1843, relating to the new and everlasting covenant, including the eternity of the marriage covenant, as also plurality of wives.")

    Yet this position was dropped when Washington, D.C., threatened to deny statehood to Utah. Similarly, and more recently, a "revelation," saying blacks would no longer be denied the Mormon priesthood, was given to Mormon leaders when the federal government started breathing down their necks.

    Continuing Revelation

    These continuing revelations are not exceptions to Mormon practice. "We believe all that God has revealed, all that he does now reveal, and we believe that he will yet reveal many great and important things"—this is the ninth article of faith for Mormons and is an official statement of doctrine.

    Hinckley notes that "Christians and Jews generally maintain that God revealed himself and directed chosen men in ancient times. Mormons maintain that the need for divine guidance is as great or greater in our modern, complex world as it was in the comparatively simple times of the Hebrews." Thus, revelation continues.

    It might be added: public revelation continues. Catholics hold that public or "general" revelation ended at the death of the last apostle (Catechism of the Catholic Church 66, 73), but private revelations can be given still—and have been, as Marian apparitions at such places as Fatima and Lourdes testify (CCC 67). Such revelations can never correct, supplement, or complete the Christian faith, which is precisely what Mormon "revelations" claim to do.
  • Mormonism’s Debt to Puritanism

    "Mormon theology," says Hinckley, "deals with such widely diversified subjects as the nature of heaven and the evils of alcohol. Actually, in this philosophy the two are closely related. Since man is created in the image of God, his body is sacred. . . . As such, it ill becomes any man or women to injure or dissipate his or her health." So alcohol (as well as tobacco, tea, and caffeine) is out for the believing Mormon.

    Here we have an example of Mormonism borrowing from Puritanism. The religion Joseph Smith developed uses elements of various forms of Protestantism. The emphasis on "temperance"—which, to the old-line Protestants, meant not the moderate use of alcohol, but outright abstinence—is one such borrowing.

    The curious thing is that this attitude is contrary to the Bible. It is one of those doctrines, shared by Fundamentalists and Mormons, that is believed independently of the Bible, though the Bible has been searched (and with quite unsuccessful results) for verses that seem to back it.

    Jesus Wasn’t a Teetotaler

    The ancient Jews were a temperate people—temperate used in the right sense. They used light wine as part of the regular diet (1 Tim. 3:8). Jesus, you will recall, was called a wine-drinker (Matt. 11:19), the charge being not that he drank, but that he drank too much (that, of course, was false, but the charge itself reflects the fact that he did drink alcoholic beverages, such as the wine that was required for use in the Jewish Passover seder).

    The New Testament nowhere says the Jews claimed Jesus should have been a teetotaler. Wine was used also at weddings, and our Lord clearly approved of the practice of wine drinking since he made wine from water when the wine was depleted at Cana (John 2:1–11).

    Something Mormons seldom refer to is wine’s medicinal uses (Luke 10:34). You will recall that Paul advised Timothy to take wine to ease stomach pains (1 Tim. 5:23). Such apostolic admonitions co-exist uneasily with Mormonism’s strictures against wine.

    Mormons practice tithing, yet would be shocked to learn that in a key Old Testament passage where tithing (the practice of donating 10% of one’s income for religious use) is discussed, God says: "you shall turn [your tithe] into money, and bind up the money in your hand, and go to the place which the Lord your God chooses, and spend the money for whatever you desire, oxen, or sheep, or wine or strong drink, whatever your appetite craves; and you shall eat there before the Lord your God and rejoice, you and your household" (Deut. 14:25-26). We’re also told, "Give strong drink to him who is perishing, and wine to those in bitter distress; let them drink and forget their poverty, and remember their misery no more" (Prov. 31:6–7).

    As is so often the case when founders of new religions get an idea into their heads, they take it to an extreme. So Joseph Smith confused the misuse of wine with its legitimate use. The Bible does condemn excessive drinking (1 Cor. 5:11; Gal. 5:21; Eph. 5:18; 1 Pet. 4:3), but the key here is the adjective "excessive." This is why Paul says Church leaders must not be addicted to wine (1 Tim. 3:8).

    When Hinckley refers to the "evils of alcohol," he gets it wrong. Alcohol itself is not evil, but the misuse of it is, just as a hammer, which can be used to pound in nails, can be misused to pound in skulls.

    Plural Heavens

    Polygamy was a doctrine some Mormons found hard to accept. Abstinence from alcohol is a teaching many find difficult. But one unique Mormon belief has supposedly brought blessing and relief to many souls, particularly potential converts.

    Mormonism teaches that practically no one is forever damned to hell. Aside from Satan, his spirit followers, and perhaps a half-dozen notorious sinners, all people who have ever existed will share in heavenly "glory." Not, mind you, all in the same heaven. There are, in fact, three heavens.

    The lowest heaven is populated by adulterers, murderers, thieves, liars and other evil-doers. These share in a glory and delight impossible to imagine. Their sins have been forgiven, and they now enjoy the eternal presence of the Holy Ghost.

    The middle heaven contains the souls and bodies of good non-Mormons and those Mormons who were in some way deficient in their obedience to church commandments. They will glory in the presence of Jesus Christ forever.

    The top heaven is reserved for devout Mormons, who go on to become gods and rulers of their own universes. By having their wives and children "sealed" to them during an earthly, temple ceremony, these men-gods will procreate billions of spirits and place them into future, physical bodies. These future children will then worship their father-gods, obeying Mormon commandments, and eventually take their place in the eternal progression to their own godhood.

    Mormons think this doctrine is a strong selling point. They point out (erroneously) that only their church offers families the chance to be together forever in eternity. But read the fine print. The only way you can have your family with you is if each one of them has lived a sterling Mormon life. Otherwise, a spouse, parent, or child may be locked forever in a lower heaven. Indeed, the faithful Mormon wife of a lukewarm Mormon man will leave him behind in an inferior place while she goes on and is sealed to a more devout Mormon gentleman. These two will then beget and raise their own, new family.

    The LDS slogan, "Families are forever," can only mean fractured families.

  • Church Origins

    There are presently five denominations (there have been many more, but these have ceased to exist) among the religious people commonly called "Mormons," but who call themselves "Latter-Day Saints." Three of these are very small. The two largest groups have their headquarters at Salt Lake City, Utah and at Independence, Missouri. Each of the five groups believes itself to be the original "Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints," as founded by Joseph Smith. The divisions in the ranks of Mormonism arose shortly after the death of Smith. Among the early leaders of these separate groups were Brigham Young, Joseph Smith, Jr. (son of the founder of Mormonism, who was also known as Joseph Smith, Jr.), Sidney Rigdon, Alphaeus Cutler and Mames J. Strang.

    Joseph Smith was born December 23, 1805 in Sharon, Vermont and was killed June 27,1844 in Carthage, Illinois. He claimed to have had a series of visions beginning when he was a boy of FOURTEEN! In these "visions" he saw God, Christ and Angels, particularly the angel, "Moroni," was told that all existing churches were wrong, that he was to join none, that the pure gospel and the true church be re-established through him, and was given information and instructions which led to the "discovery" and "translation" of certain "plates of gold," from whence is supposed to have come the "Book of Mormon." The Book of Mormon (claims to be, gm) to be an account of the ancient inhabitants of this continent and a history of some of the Jews. Its background is fraudulent and its contents ridiculous.

    The Mormon Church was organized April 16, 1830 at Fayette, New York. With Mormons revelation is continuous. Thus they embrace, not only The Book of Mormon, but other declarations and writings (principally the Book of Doctrines and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price) of Smith (whom they claim was a prophet of God) and the declarations and writings of others since. These could gain acceptance only to the extent that the Bible was disparaged and reflected upon; therefore, Mormonism accepts the Bible with a broad condition ("as far as it is correctly translated"-they say that they can have more confidence in The Book of Mormon because it was translated with divine direction) that is supposed to take care of the many, many points at which it condemns The Book of Mormon and other "inspired" writings.

    The Mormon Church is a human organization, having a human founder and a human creed; it began 1800 years after the establishment of the Lord's church in Jerusalem.


    The first edition of the Book of Mormon, the "Bible" of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, was published in March, 1830 at Palmyra, New York. At a cost of $3,000 five thousand copies were printed.

    On the flyleaf of that first edition "Joseph Smith, Junior" was referred to as "Author and Proprietor." In later editions this was changed to "Translated by Joseph Smith, Jun." The testimony of three witnesses, and then the testimony of eight witnesses were given in the back of the first edition. The eight witnesses also referred to "Joseph Smith, Jr." as "the Author and Proprietor of this work." In the 1837 edition, after two of these "witnesses" were dead this "testimony" was changed to read "Joseph Smith, Jun., the translator of this work."

    The sell-styled prophet, Joseph Smith, claimed that the contents of the Book of Mormon came from records on "Golden Plates" by men who were supposed to be guided by God in the making and preservation of those records. Not only that; Smith himself claimed to have been given the translation in English, word by word, from God. He said himself, "I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystones of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book." (History Of The Church, Vol. IV, p.461). Yet, in spite of this, literally thousands of changes have been made from the first edition to current editions-many of these changes in the text itself.

    About ten years ago Jack Free of Ontario, Oregon compared a first edition reprint (which I also have in my library) of the Book of Mormon with a current edition. He tabulated 12,349 changes! The tragedy of it all is that several hundred thousand people are casting their eternal salvation on the claim of a nineteenth century man to being a prophet of God. Precious souls hang in the balance, and I would not want to stand in the place of that imposter of a man when the judgement comes. The Book of Mormon cannot be true unless the Bible is true, but if the Bible is true-because of its very nature and claims and warnings, the Book of Mormon and all other professed revelations must be false.


    To give you some idea how far removed from the New Testament pattern the Mormon Church is, here is a brief depicture of the organization of the Utah Mormon Church:

    They have two orders of the priesthood, the Melchizedek (the higher order) and the Aaronic (the lower). The Melchizedek Priesthood holds the power of the presidency and authority over various offices of the Church. Its members hold authority to officiate in all the "ordinances of the gospel." From higher to lower its offices are apostles, patriarchs, high priests, seventies and elders. The apostles are "special witnesses of Christ," and there are only twelve of these at a time. The patriarchs or evangelists have the duty of blessing the members; a presiding patriarch has the power to "bless or curse, to bind or loose on earth" and is a prophet, seer and revelator. The high priests are for a standing presidency and service. The elders have authority to bless children and take charge of meetings (there are 96 in a quorum). The seventies are travelling elders and are arranged in groups or quorums of 70; they work under the general direction of the twelve apostles and are presided over by seven presidents of equal rank among their number.

    The Aaronic Priesthood is said to guide the temporal affairs of the church. Its offices in a descending scale are bishops, priests, teachers and deacons. One may become a deacon at age twelve (boys only); deacons are grouped in quorums of 12, presided over by one of the number serving as their president. Teachers are grouped in quorums of 24. The priests, who preach and teach, have 48 to a quorum.

    Local congregations are wards, and each ward is headed by a bishop. Wards are grouped together into stakes, and each stake is headed by a high priest who in this capacity is called the president of the stake. Many stakes also include missions, which are not self-sustaining wards yet. The stake presidents and ward bishops, along with patriarchs, high priests and elders supervise the work within the various stakes and wards.

    The council of the twelve apostles, chosen by "revelation," supervises (under the direction of the First Presidency) the whole work of the Church and ordains all "ministers."

    The presiding council of the Church is the First Presidency composed of three high priests, one the president and two his counsellors. Final and universal authority in spiritual and temporal affairs rests in the First Presidency. The president is regarded as "the mouthpiece of God."

  • Thanks, that's pretty helpful Mike! ;D

    [coptic]Maikel (defender)[/coptic]
  • WOW! You people write a lot!

  • Posts: 692

    He ascended and sent us the Paraclete!

    « Reply #2 on: May 20, 2004, 10:10:19 PM »

    I am in a protestant school and I think some of their beliefs are:

    1. No Seven Sacrements

    2.No Holy Communion

    3.No intercession

    4.Everyone is a saint

    5.No Confession, no repentance

    6.You will go to heaven anyways if ur baptized

    I disagree on most of what they say, especially when it comes to the point where they make fun of Coptic Theology or Popes.


    I've read alot of material here that is not accurate and gives many a false impression of the Christians you call "protestants".I really dont like the name "protestant" since today, in modern times,it generally refers to liberal christians or denominations that reject many of the foundational teachings of the Church of God.For example,many of them deny the Diety of our Lord Jesus Christ,the Virgin birth,the Blood Atonement,the Resurrection,etc.In truth,they are not really christians.They deny all the basic teachings of the New Testament and the early church.The coptic christians here{and in many other Orthodox websites I have visited}tend to lump all non-orthodox or catholic christians into one group called "protestants".In reality there is a huge difference between Pentecostal,born again christians,Bible believing fundamentalist christians,and their liberal ,unbelieving counterparts found in many old-line protestant churches.

    T he basic foundation of our faith{besides the Lord Jesus Christ Himself}are the Holy Scriptures,the Bible-the word of the living God.Everything we believe must be taught in the Holy Bible,since it is literally inspired,or as the original Greek language states"from the mouth of God or God breathed".In 2nd Timothy,chapter 3 verse16,Saint Paul states,"All scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching,for reproof,for correction,and for training in righteousness".Where we differ from the coptic church is in regards to tradition and the authority of the Bible.Thats where all of our differences arise.The orthodox believe in the Bible,along with the tradition of the early church fathers.They believe in the preminence of the Church and its traditions over the authority of the Holy Scripture,claiming it was the early church who chose the New Testament books that were to be included in the canon of scripture,and should thus have a higher authority than the Word of God.We Bible believing christians reject this idea,claiming the Holy Scriptures are the final authority on all matters of the faith.While we do not reject tradition out of hand{indeed we hold the early church fathers in high regard}we accept only those traditions that can be proved by the God breathed scriptures.We try not to add anything or take away anything from the teaching of Holy Scripture.We know that even the most godly Saint is not perfect{as Saint Paul says in the book of Romans3:23,"for all have sinned and have come short of the glory of God'}and thus though many of the writings of the early church fathers are tremendous spiritual treasures,they are not infallible guides,only the Word of God is perfect and without error.

    1. It is true that most of us{the anglican church and several mainline protestant denominations do accept several sacraments}do not have sacraments as taught by the Orthodox Church,but we do practice baptism and celebrate Holy communion with many of us believing in a very real and literal participation of the Body and Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    2.As I have stated above we do have participate in Holy Communion.

    3.We believe intercession or prayer is the right of every born again christian{born from the Spirit Above,the new or second birth as taught in the Gospel of John,chapter 3}We believe the prayers of the Saints,as taught in the book of Revelation refers to the prayers of all christians on earth,whenever they pray to God in Heaven.Saint Paul,in many places in the New Testament,calls all christians,whether young or old,immature or mature in the faith,Saints{"Holy Ones}of God.Since Christ is Holy,all christians in Him are Holy-they are Saints.We believe in the intercession of our Lord Jesus as taught in the book of Hebrews but we reject the intercession of the Virgin Mary since it is not taught in the Bible.

    4.Not everyone is a Saint,only those who are in Christ.This was taught by Saint Paul and the Apostolic New Testament Church.Only in later centuries was this changed to refer only to a certain select few.It stems from the belief of the Orthodox christians that we must do good deeds and works to be Holy,and hence only a few "super christians",only the most godly can attain to the status of Saint.Where we differ is that we believe we are Holy,not because we do good works or strive to live godly lives,but because by the grace of God we are in Christ,we are Holy because he is Holy;as the Bible says,"as He is in this world so are we,our life is hid in God,in Christ'","it is no longer I who live but Christ in me".We most definately believe in good works,as they are signs that we are children of God,but it is the Holy Spirit in us who does what is good and acceptable in the eyes of the Lord.All glory to God!

    5.We do indeed believe in repentance,for without it no human being can come to God.In the Greek the word repentance{metanoia}means literally to change ones mind,to turn from something.We believe God commands all men everywhere to repent{as it says in the book of Acts and many other places in the New Testament}and to believe the Gospel of God.We must turn from sin,change our mind ,turn from the ways of the world and turn to Christ!What we do not believe in is penitence.We do not find that concept in the Holy Bible.Jesus Christ,the righteous one,paid for our sins on the Cross,with His own precious Blood,all of our sins.We dont believe we have to do some work of penitence to recieve forgiveness but we follow 1st John1:9'"If we confess our sins,He is faithful and just to forgive our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness'.

    6.We believe you go to Heaven not because of baptism,but by faith in our Lord Jesus Christ as the word of God says in Romans10:9,"if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord,and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead,you shall be saved".Thats why I know that Coptic Orthodox christians are saved,because you do both of these things.God is no liar!We believe what Ephesians2:8says",For by grace you have been saved through faith.And this is not your own doing;it is the gift of God,not a result of works,so that no one may boast".

    I hope this brief summary helps you understand ,in some small way,what we "protestants" {really we are just simple Bible believers}believe and teach.I would also like to apologize for any of my fellow believers who have ever made fun of or ridiculed the precious believers known as Coptic Orthodox.May God richly bless in all things and bring you with much joy and comfort in the Holy Spirit to His Heavenly kingdom.All praise to the Father,Son,And Holy Spirit!
  • [quote author=jfranklin link=board=4;threadid=267;start=30#msg6791 date=1089702437]

    Posts: 692

    6.We believe you go to Heaven not because of baptism,but by faith in our Lord Jesus Christ

    hey buddy wat about :

    "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he can not enter the kingdom of God" (John 3:5)
    - "That He might sanctify and cleans her with the washing of water by the word: (Ephesians 5:26)
    - "And such were some of you, but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and the Spirit of our God" (1st. Cor. 6:11)
    - "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit" (St. Matthew 28:19)
    -"The man who believes in and accepts Baptism will be saved; the man who refuses to believe in it will be condemned (John 16:16)

    makes u think doesnt it.
  • Yes ,baptism is very important!But if you do not take the scriptures out of context and read the New Testament in its entirety,you will see that while baptism is commanded by God and is very important,it is acctually our faith that justifies us before God.Also many believe the verse in John 3 refers to the water of natural child-birth not water baptism.The whole context of the scripture here is talking about the 1st birth-natural;and the 2nd,the new birth.Hence man must not only be born of water{the natural birth}but must be born again.Jesus is not saying the water here nessesarily refers to water baptism.The Bible in many places compares baptism with circumcision,which was a sign of the Old Covenant.But Saint Paul makes it very clear,in the book of Romans,that even in the old testament,men were justified by faith,even before recieving the God ordained sign of circumcision.To be honest,there are many "protestants"who believe as the Orthodox-in baptismal regeneration.
  • -"The man who believes in and accepts Baptism will be saved; the man who refuses to believe in it will be condemned (John 16:16)

    u cant argue with that... can u?
  • We believe you go to Heaven not because of baptism,but by faith in our Lord Jesus Christ

    Faith alone is not GJI pointed out, baptism is essential. In some cases when baptism is not possible, then probably if there was the intention to be baptized then that's enough. Some of the martyrs weren't baptized, but were baptized by their blood that was shed. Same for the thief on the rite hand. These are all exceptions, however if u have the ability to be baptized, then there's a lot of verses in the bible that command u to (versions provided by GJI).

    besides, u cannot possibly be saved by ur faith alone:

    Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. 18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? (James 17-20)
  • besides, u cannot possibly be saved by ur faith alone:

    Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. 18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? (James 17-20)

    The entire New Testament teaches that a man is saved by grace through faith and not by the works of the flesh.Salvation is a free gift of God.If man could earn salvation by works then Christ Jesus would not have come to this Earth to die for our sins.Their is only one passage in the entire New Testament that speaks of the need of works to be connected with faith.You quoted those verses above.These verses in no way contradict what the Apostle Paul teaches throughout the New Testament where he over and over teaches that a man is justified by faith alone.All James is saying here is that true faith always produces good works.Indeed ,the book of Ephesians teaches us that God has prepared good works for all christians to perform and fulfill according to His predetermined will.If a man says he is a Christian and yet has no good works he is undoubtly a liar.As Jesus says:"A good tree bears good fruit".Not because it works to produce good fruit,but by its very nature it can do nothing else.A Christian also must produce the good fruit of works,not because he has to strive in his own power and effort,but because the Holy Trinity dwells within his heart,because he is a new creation,it is his very nature to do so.If a man does not produce good works and yet claims to be a christians,he is a liar,his faith is dead and worthless,no better than the faith of demons.A true christian always produces good works because it is his nature.But a man only recieves the new birth,the new nature,by grace through faith.The Word of God is very clear on that subject.Jesus is the Vine,we are the branches,we can do nothing apart from Him.These are the words of the Lord Jesus Himself.
  • Faith without works is dead so you can't be saved through faith only.
  • jfranklin...what about the rest of the chapter:

    Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. 25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? 26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

    note how St James said that that a man is justified by works, and not faith ONLY. Besides, ur faith without works is DEAD, they go together, so if u have no works, then u have no faith, and without both u will not be saved...i really don't see ur point
  • oh yeah...all people who are interested in differences between orthodoxy and mainly protestantism, and need good explanations: i suggest u read the book "Comparative Theology" by Pope will answer most issues as baptism, salvation, intercession, tradition etc.
  • [quote author=jfranklin link=board=4;threadid=267;start=45#msg6799 date=1089705584]
    Jesus is not saying the water here nessesarily refers to water baptism.

    but if its possible then people should be baptized, plenty of examples:

    Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus. 36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? 37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. 38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him. 39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing. (acts 8 )

    And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul. 15 And when she was baptized, and her household, she besought us, saying, If ye have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house, and abide there. And she constrained us. (acts 16)

    Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days. (acts 10)

    And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. 32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house. 33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway. (acts 16)

    note, how they were baptized straigtway in the last example, and also the eunuch was baptized as soon as circumstances permitted...this shows the need and haste for baptism in practical examples.
  • Comparative Theology

    Golgotha in Hebrew: Kranion in Greek: the place where You, O Lord, were crucified: You stretched out Your hands: and theyc rucified two thieves with You: One at Your right and the other at Your left: You were in the midst: O Good Savior.

    - Chris
  • i think that might help a bit this is from Matt 25

    The Son of Man Will Judge the Nations
    31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy[3] angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34Then the King will say to those on His right hand, "Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.'
    37"Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, "Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?' 40And the King will answer and say to them, "Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.'
    41"Then He will also say to those on the left hand, "Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.'
    44"Then they also will answer Him,[4] saying, "Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?' 45Then He will answer them, saying, "Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.' 46And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

    both sheep and goats are good people who had faith but as you saw the sheeps did good work thus ending up going to heaven but the goats had faith but did no work and thus they went to eternal fire
    and yes for those of you who are gonna argue both sheeps and goats are good people of faith
    if they weren't it would have been written sheeps and snakes or 2 very contradicting animals
  • thnx Banoub for the link ;)
  • Any time. :)

    I was reading it actually, and I think this is really relevant to baptism in specific:

    The Efficacious of Baptism
    (1) Salvation is completed through baptism.

    This is pursuant to the Lord Jesus Christ's words: "He who
    believes and is baptised will be saved" (Mark.16: 16). The
    Lord did not say: "He who believes is saved", but He put the
    condition of baptism alongside the condition of belief.

    (2) Through baptism we receive the Second Birth which is of water and the Spirit.

    I'm not gonna quote the whole thing, since most of H.H.'s words are extremely relevant; my advice - listen to mmatt95 and go read Comparative Theology, you won't regret it. Perhaps its even better to read up on that before you post here, since it deals specifically with Protestantism in general (excluding the Anglican faith). So before you post, research.

    Everyone that sees me laughs me to scorn: They shoot out the lip. They shake their head, saying: "He believed and hoped in the Lord that He would rescue him: Let Him deliver him: since He delighted in him."

    - Chris
  • Dear Coptic Christians,

    You all quote one passage of scripture in James and yet ignore the many{over 50 at least}that declare men are saved by grace through faith,apart from works.I listed several scriptures in an earlier post.You seem to ignore these scriptures completely.Read them yourselves,they are very clear.When a person studies the Bible,he takes all the scriptures and compares them one with another.He doesnt pick and choose the ones he agrees with.

    As for the sheep and goats,the sheep are Gods people{to be baptized in water is to be made a part of the body of Christ,to be baptized into Christ and all His benefits,by the grace and working of the Holy Spirit},they are His people by grace,not by any works they do or do not do.They will do good works because God lives in them and they possess the nature of God.They dont work to get this Divine nature,they work because the Life of God is within them,the Divine nature compells and enables them to do every good work.If you dont see the difference between the two concepts,then I'm very sorry.There is an extremely profound difference between the two.The goats are those who do not have Christ living within them and are unable,indeed they have no desire to please God.The Bible says in the book of Hebrews,"without faith it is impossible to please God,for those that come to Him must believe that He is,and a rewarder of those that diligintly seek Him".There will be many in Hell who did many good works and yet were not born again through faith in Jesus Christ,just as Jesus says in the Gospels",Many will come to me in that day,and say Lord,Lord did I not prophesy in your name,cast out demons,do miracles and many mighty works in your Name,and then Jesus will look at them and declare,I never knew you,you worker of iniquity".So you see it is not the one who does mighty works for the Lord that is saved, but the one who belongs to the Lord Jesus,the one to whom the Lord bestows His bountiful and all suffecient Grace.As Saint Paul says in Ephesians 2:8",For by grace you have been saved through faith.And this is not your own doing;it is the gift of God,not a result of works,so that no one may boast".In Galatians 3:2 Paul states",Let me ask you only this:did you recieve the Spirit by works of the law,or by hearing with faith?Are you so foolish?Having begun by the Spirit are you now being perfected by the flesh?"In verse 5 he says:"Does He who supplies the Spirit to you,and works miracles among you do so by works of the law,or by hearing with faith-just as Abraham believed God and it was counted to him as righteousness?Know then that it is those of faith that are the children of Abraham".

    One other thing that you seemed to imply was that "protestants' dont do good works.On the contrary,it is the Bible believing christians who have done more good works than any other christians in world history.They have fed more people,clothed the naked,visited those in prison,started more charitable organizations,started more hospitals,worked with lepers,built homes for the poor,etc,etc, than all other christians combined.That is a proven fact and can be verified quite easily on the internet,for anyone who wishs to study further.Even the Bible translations in English that you are using were done more than likely by dreaded"protestants".Some of the songs you can find on this website were actually written by non-orthodox christians and are sung every Sunday in protestant churches.In a way I find this quite ironic.
  • I forgot to make one last point that deals with baptism.The book of Acts 10:44-48 makes it quite clear that God gave the Holy Spirit to these gentiles even before they were baptized in water.No one can recieve the gift of the Holy Spirit unless they are a child of God.They believed, by faith, the message of Peter and were born again by grace,so God gave them the precious gift of His Spirit.They then obeyed the Lords command to be baptized in water and were thus added to the church.
  • U seem to say that we r ignoring the other passages, but we r not. When u study a topic in the bible, u take ALL the relevant verses and draw conclusions. Every word and every verse in the bible is equal, so the words of St James prove our point...u need faith AND works
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