Why can some hymns in the liturgy of the word be said during communion while others aren’t?

jonathanrobel

Blessed apostles fast everyone
Does anyone know why ethoten ze and genethlion can be said after psalm 150, but Niromi, ee parthenos and pijinmisi can’t?

mabsoota

don't know, hope someone does! 

ophadece are you online?

:)

ophadece

Thanks @mabsoota for asking about me.. I don't know the exact answer @jonathanrobel but I guess most "occasion" hymns can be said after psalm 150 including ⲛ̀ⲑⲱⲧⲉⲛ ⲇⲉ and ⲅⲉⲛⲉⲑⲗⲓⲟⲛ. In fact even ⲁⲡⲉⲕⲣⲁⲛ has been sung after psalm 150 in the church I go to. I guess the premise is that hymns after Synexarium (or the reading of the Acts) focus on the preparation of the reading of the Gospel, ie receiving the Word of God, which we are also doing after psalm 150 preparing to receive the Word of God edibly. Therefore other hymns are excluded including for example ⲟⲛⲧⲱⲥ, ⲁⲡⲉⲧϫⲏⲕ, etc
Ⲟⲩϫⲁⲓ ϧⲉⲛ ⲡϭⲥ

jonathanrobel

Thanks for the answer @ophadece, but I think i asked the wrong question. What I meant to ask is why some hymns before the gospel can’t be said in communion. (Which applies to the hymns I said before).

ophadece

Thanks @jonathanrobel - it sounds to me that I was not very clear in my answer, especially that I listed the wrong hymns. I believe that all hymns can, so including ⲡⲓϫⲓⲛⲙⲓⲥⲓ & ⲛⲓⲣⲱⲙⲓ, if ⲏⲡⲁⲣⲑⲉⲛⲟⲥ were an exception I would believe it would be because it focuses on Virgin Mary - that said ⲁⲡⲉⲕⲣⲁⲛ is said as well as ⲁⲧⲁⲓⲡⲁⲣⲑⲉⲛⲟⲥ and the Lord is glorified through His saints.. Let me await someone who is more knowledgeable that I can benefit from..

Ⲟⲩϫⲁⲓ ϧⲉⲛ ⲡϭⲥ

Daniel_Kyrillos

I haven’t done a full search, but this distinction is not consistent, universal, or old. Tarteeb al-be3a, an old rites-compilation book, lists that Niromi CAN be said during communion, alongside Enthoten Ze, according to the rites of el-Paramos (part 3, 5th of Apip). I haven’t checked, but I remember seeing in part one of the book that e-parthenos can be said in that spot as well.

So I think the reason its hard finding a rule is that there isn’t one! Not to speak about any particular popular rites app, but this might just come down to the whims of the author/compiler (or their bishop/metropolitan).

Archdeacon

Haven't posted in a while but this is a pet peeve of mine.  There isn't a documented rule, but if you study the full list of hymns in our Church, a clear pattern can be observed.  The principle for hymns during the Distribution (Communion) is that they should focus on either the person of Jesus Christ Himself or if there is a season, how that season ties into the presence of Jesus Christ with us on the altar.  This is why tamgeed/glorification should not be done during this time.  It is also why hymns for dedicated people like the angels or apostles also should not be said.  The hymns for the Apostles should be said around the readings which were written by said Apostles.  This is the same principle at work when we ordain the Patriarch right before the Gospel and not after the Prayer of Reconciliation.  

The hymn Pioik is very explicit in talking about the Bread of Life coming down from Heaven.  In Kiahk, the hymn Efemepsha Ghar starts by saying we are glorifying God through the Virgin Mary.  In Great Lent, the hymns Piamairomi and Ounishti are centered around Jesus Christ and the act of taking communion.  Asomen is all about Jesus Christ.  In the Fast of St. Mary, the hymn Anok Nim also focuses on the person of Jesus Christ and how the Old Testament symbols that point to St. Mary were ultimately pointing or leading us to Christ.  Note that this is why Anok Nim is the correct hymn and not Atai Parthenos, which should not be said during the Distribution.  Niromi and Nthoten Ze are direct quotations from the Bible and they recount words that Jesus Christ Himself spoke.  So one could make the argument they satisfy the principle because repeating Christ's own words makes Him present.  But notice that nowhere is it said that Ontos could be said during the Distribution.

Where it gets confusing is where people have ignored the assigned Coptic hymns and replaced them with Arabic melodies which tend to be very long to fill the time.  The longer the hymn the more likely it will deviate from the principle focus.  The other way is when we try to save time in the liturgy by moving all long hymns to the Distribution.  This then gets normalized which leads people to start thinking that communion is a time to say whatever hymn we want.  This most frequently shows up during Kiahk when people try to sing tasbeha hymns or psalis during the Distribution.  There is also a trend of saying what the people know instead of what is appropriate.  The problem with this is that many of these hymns are not said frequently so most people wouldn't know them just by attending liturgy regularly.  This is how hymns get lost.

ophadece

@Daniel_Kyrillos and @Archdeacon - missed you both so much.. You make very interesting points.. Thanks a lot really..
Ⲟⲩϫⲁⲓ ϧⲉⲛ ⲡϭⲥ

Daniel_Kyrillos

Just to correct something from before: i said i remembered ⲏ ⲡⲁⲣⲑⲉⲛⲟⲥ being listed as said in communion of the Nativity. This is not correct. According to the the Patriarchate (1444), Paramos, and Tanta sources in Tarteeb al-Be3a, these are the hymns to be said in communion on the 29th of Kiahk:
- Psalm 150 in the joyful tune
- ϫⲉ ϥ̀ⲥ̀ⲙⲁⲣⲱⲟⲩⲧ except Tanta) in the joyful tune
- ⲡⲓⲟⲩⲁⲓ ⲉ̀ⲃⲟⲗϧⲉⲛ Ϯⲧⲣⲓⲁⲥ, the 8th part of the Thursday theotokia
- Ⲅⲉⲛⲉⲑⲗⲓⲟⲛ, and its paralex:
- Ⲡⲓϫⲓⲛⲙⲓⲥⲓ
- Ⲟⲩⲥⲓⲟⲩ ⲁϥϣⲁⲓ, and its paralex:
- Ⲁⲩⲓ̀ⲛⲓ ⲛⲁϥ
According also to the Paramos, ϮⲄⲁⲗⲓⲗⲉⲁ̀ the 7th part of the Wednesday Theotokia can be said in the tune of Ⲅⲉⲛⲉⲑⲗⲓⲟⲛ.
ⲏ ⲡⲁⲣⲑⲉⲛⲟⲥ is not listed.

mabsoota

thanks a lot, hope to learn more of these in the future :)

ophadece

@Daniel_Kyrillos, I guess that may be due to the fact that ⲏ ⲡⲁⲣⲑⲉⲛⲟⲥ was added more recently, ie the 19th century with the other hymns borrowed from the Greek rites.. Pray for me a lot..
Ⲟⲩϫⲁⲓ ϧⲉⲛ ⲡϭⲥ

Ioannes

Pretty sure Archdeacon is correct.