Festive Psalm 150

ShadiShahat

Do you guys have any idea of the source of the Ibraheem Ayad festive alleluia? Was it made by him or did he learn it from someone? 
How about the festive psalm 150 from Tawfik? Did he "rakebha" on his sherat or did he learn it from somewhere? 
Thank you

minatasgeel

The one M Ibrahim says, he said that he listened to it from a cantor somewhere in Beni suif.

For M Tawfik, he is a source.

Lets complicate things more... there is a third one that is long, and written in the musical notation book that was published by AUC

ShadiShahat

Was that one recorded do you know? And do you have a recording of tawfik’s sherat?
I would appreciate any more information about that third long one if you know anything more
Thank you

Jojo_Hanna

I have a video of Muallem Ibrahim saying that the Holy Spirit appeared to him and told him to remove the 4th alleluia of the festal psalm 150.
The popular rendition spreading around now is made up by him and is incorrect since the hymn is based on the festive sherat. Listen to HCOC’s recording for the proper psalm 150 with all 4 allelluias sung.

+God bless+

ShadiShahat

Right but the only source we know of for the long one is tawfik and he also rakebha on his own sherat. I don’t get how it could be any more credible than ibraheem ayad’s

minatasgeel

I have never heard that "Tawfik rakebha on his sherat." to me this sounds as ignorant as "the sehidic sherat is different than the bohairic sherat so that why they are different." They are simply different. 

ShadiShahat

Im sorry Mina, excuse my ignorance, but do you have any other insight as to which psalm 150 is more authentic?

minatasgeel

There need not be a hymn that is more authentic or another less. It's not about which is "right" or "wrong"... it's about learning the source and the developments of the hymns and rites. 

Kerlous

Ibrahim Ayad commented and said that he heard it one time from a cantor in Beni Suef and he noticed that it was on the tune of Mlm Mikhails Shiraat. After hearing it upon returning to Cairo he told Mlm Gad about it and they had planned to get together and attempt to “rakebooha” or to recreate it but they never actually did and in the end Mlm Ibrahim Rakebha by himself on Mlm Mikhails Shiraat. I don’t think it’s a matter of right or wrong like Mina said. In the end it is all prayer. If your church does Mlm Tawfiks then pray Mlm Tawfiks if your church does Mlm Ibrahims way then pray Mlm Ibrahims way.

ophadece

Hi @Kerlous,
I trust @Jojo_Hanna and his sources and I also appreciate your response. You make very good and valid points, but the important thing is, having lived in Egypt for a long chunk of my life, I know that there are people who would abuse their status, making things up, or spreading some personal ideas, just because they are this or that. Christian teachings, and of course, handing down Coptic Orthodox treasures should not be like that..
Ⲟⲩϫⲁⲓ ϧⲉⲛ ⲡϭⲥ

Kerlous

You’re correct @Ophadece. I would like to say again that Muallem Ibrahim did not make up his alli. He claims to have heard it once before he rakebha so it always existed. Muallem Tawfik also rakeb his alli on the Sahidic Joyful Shiraat so what makes his alli any more valid than Muallem Ibrahims?

Kerlous

Let’s say Muallem Ibrahim did make up the Alli. It is said that Muallem Mikhail made up his own tunes for parts of the Gregorian Liturgy that did not have tunes at the time. When being asked about this, Mlm Tawfik commented and said whether he really made it up or not we don’t know but since he had passed those parts down like that they kept them. The same argument could be made here. There was no authentic Joyful Alleluia whether Mlm Tawfik or Mlm Ibrahim made up their Alli’s we truly do not know so let us keep what they have passed down and not lose the spirit of prayer.

ophadece

Dear @Kerlous,
I, like what @minatasgeel stated above have not heard that cantor Towfik fitted the alle on Sa'idic sharat..
Ⲟⲩϫⲁⲓ ϧⲉⲛ ⲡϭⲥ

Kerlous

https://soundcloud.app.goo.gl/5NRdbkcXm3FtphhC7

This is a recording of the Sahidic Shiraat if you listen to it and compare it to his Psalm 150 tune you can see they have the same exact structure and the same melody.

ShadiShahat

That is what I said Kerlous, or rather attempted to say, but it didn't make Minatasgeel very happy lol 

minamakar

@Kerlous, @Jojo_Hanna, @Ophadece

The original tune for the joyful psalm 150 is lost. There are four mentioned tunes for psalm 150: annual, kiahky, lenten, joyful. Of these, only three survived, and none of them have refrains. (Although now the lenten tune transitions to the watos tune and uses a refrain) 

When cantors started using the sherat (watos) tune for the joyful psalm they introduced refrains for the tune to fit properly. The joyful tune that was traditionally passed down is based on the mohayyer (medium) tune of the sherat. Mlm Tawfik & Mlm Ibrahim based it on the major tune of the sherat instead.

It is irrelevant whether they made it up or if they heard it from someone because it's just a construction on the sherat tune and not considered 'authentic.' Mlm Ibrahim's version just ends the tune half way and transitions to the medium tune and this avoids having to construct 15 refrains on the tune.

ShadiShahat

That is the conclusion I reached as well while researching this: if neither one was authentic to begin with but both are accepted now, then it is okay to know and chant both since they are both coptic hymns.

ophadece

<c anesty

Great points.. thanks all.. I stand corrected then..

oujai qen p[c