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Coptic Orthodox Church
-The Holy Synod convened and agreed that Al el-Qorban (Alleluia of the Oblations) will be said year-round.
-O nim nai + Ya Kol al sofoof are only to be chanted up until the Feast of the Ascension
How do you know? Is this posted somewhere? (in English)?
Also, what about Ya kol al sofouf during matins of Pentecost?
According to the new rules, not even on Pentecost Matins.
It’s on fb somewhere
The ritual is not very clear and does not mention Matins of Pentecost at all. This ritual is in response to many who continued to chant Resurrection hymns as well as Ascension hymns from the 41st to the 49th days. During this period the procession is in the altar only. As for the procession during Matins of Pentecost this is a commemorative procession of the Resurrection hence the Resurrection icon is used again and the procession is inside the altar and outside once again.
I have to agree with
. I think the reason for that recommendation is becuase many say O nim nai and Ya kol al-sofof instead of or after Afrek etfe and Maro-onof...which is improper. The recommendation did ignore to clarify if it is to be said in Matins of Pentecost or not.
Is that what you meant
? I agree with
about how improper it is to sing ya kol elsofoof anyway, but I am not sure about w nem nai, however, I know people will be upset if I say I agree with people doing the resurrection hymns followed by the ascension hymns and indeed I hope that they also do the procession 7 times, and even during the liturgy not matins on the Pentecost. I really disagree with what the synod has been doing recently with the rites.. The goal is to expand the time people pray in, and not to make up excuses and nonsensical rites to make it shorter and more convenient for the people..
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Does this decision mean that Alli al orban MAY be chanted annually, or that it MUST be chanted annually instead of Apinav shopi on fasting days? Also, with these being recommendations, must churches conform to them or are they just an attempt at bringing some order to what hymns should be chanted, and when?
Apinav shopi should never ever replace Alli el orban, while everyone does it in fasts for no reason of whatsoever. The correct place for all nav shobi is right after Shere Maria Tioro. That being said, only Alli el orban is left to be said all the time
thanks what about my second question regarding the recommendations
"recommendations" are ones that are decisions and agreed upon by the synod...but they were called that to allow each bishop to ease in these changes to their diocese and church on their own timeframe.
According to HGBY, the decision concerning
O nim nai and Ya kol al-sofof doesn't apply to the Pentecost day.
shouldn’t apinav be said when we do not say Fai pe Pi? Alle elqorban is the alleluia of fai pe pi, correct?
- Apinav shoubi proper location is after Shere Maria. You can see that in Albair's book. It's more like a hymn to ask for blessings of saints. That's why Ere po-esmou of St. John the Beloved on bright saturday sounds very much the same as api-nav shoubi.
- As for Alli El-orban being being the allielua of fai pe pi...that's debatable. But, probably true since I have heard cantors record it then go right in fai pe pi...BUT, that's doesn't cause an issue since all other psalm hymns of the offertory, je efmevi and ei e ee ekhon (of lent) also have alleluias. In fact, this would strengthen the argument for Alli el-orban being set for the entire year, and not just "festive" occasions. It's possible people have stopped learning Alli el-orban, and decided to just added it to the psalm hymn so the word doesn't just disappear for the lack of people's ability to learn it, or time to say it.
- I do confess though, the development of Alli el-orban to be only a festive hymn is totally understandable. I think this is soo for a couple of reasons:
1- People didn't always know it
2- People didn't always have the time to say it
3- The Alli would always be said on evening feasts' liturgy since there is no psalms/41-Kerie-leisons, and you needed it time for abouna to choose the Lamb...so people might of just thought that this is the only time you'd say the hymn. By extension, they would apply that rule to sundays too. And since most weekdays liturgies are on Wednesday and Fridays (atleast that's the case around here in the USA and back in my hometown in Egypt), fasting days, not having enough time to say hymns, people might of also concluded that the hymn is simply not said in fasting day.
The bottom line is, the Synod's recommendation is more of a reminder to the proper original intended order for the hymn.
Alle elqorban is alleluja of any psalm passage for the procession of the Lamb..
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I would propose that the hymn alleluia may be a stand alone hymn and therefore there is no reason why it should not be said all year round. Mina mentioned that many cantors record it as an introduction to the psalm "fai pe piehoou" and I too have heard this. However what the cantors neglect to point out is that this could never be the case for the priest has to pray "Glory and honour..." and perform the procession of the lamb so it it impossible under current practice at least that the hymn alleluia would be followed immediately by the psalm.
The cantors who attend Didymus institute are taught that it is a non-fasting hymn and that on fasting days they chant apinav shopi. I cannot see any logic in this as one is a praise (by this I mean the word alleluia is always a praise of thanks) and the other is a hymn of blessing.
The correct place of apinav shopi is straight after the hymn Tenouosht and that is why it is called the hymn of blessing. Chanting the hymn of Shere Maria is a more modern practice and is not a hymn of blessing and does not follow the meaning of Tenouosht which is a worship of the Trinity. The correct practice as Mina pointed out is still followed on Apocalypse Saturday where the hymn Tenouosht is chanted followed by Ere piesmou for St John the evangelist prior to reading Revelations.
I think i now understand the Synods comment on the Resurrection hymns more in that I was just watching the Ascension liturgy from this year and for some strange reason after Afrek etve Ibrahim Ayad decided to chant Onim nai and Ya lol asufouf which I have never seen him do before so it was clearly in direct response to this action.
Thanks a lot dear
. Very interesting..
Ⲟⲩϫⲁⲓ ϧⲉⲛ Ⲡϭⲥ