Eucharist/Communion/Holy Communion

edited March 3 in Faith Issues
Pls can you explain the meaning of the bread and wine but use scriptures so I can look them up to double check.  I read the Coptic brochure a priest gave me on communion and was traumatised by it all. Cannot explain any further but see James speaking and you will understand why.  A Coptic priest also told me Copts don't drink alcohol further confusing me as did not Jesus Christ drink wine and use it in the Last Supper. Preferably an ex RC converted to Coptic church explain it to me if at all possible.

[ edited by admin -- I think the above question suffices for an objective answer about the topic. We are NOT here on the forum to put blame on any other church or group. We are here to benefit and learning about Orthodoxy and the Coptic Orthodox Church. Please respond with answers within that scope]

Comments

  • minatasgeel sent you a message. Sent to myself amongst other ones - one warning of a ban  You need to be transparent in your dealings Tasheba Forum Put responses here. 


    Just a friendly reminder: I will not allow you to be on the forum just for the sake of spreading your hate to the RC church. While, you can do that anywhere else on the net, we will not accept it here. 


    BTW, the Eucharist is more of an orthodox mystery than ever. The RC church didn't create it from scratch...they just happen to have it also because they are an apostolic church. 

  • The PM was out of respect to you...
  • John 6:26-71
  • Read it carefully.
  • @Livenotonevil thanks I read it three times last night... have always felt uneasy re reading it for a long long time as the communion I partook in after God show me who Iosa was has always been deemed symbolic. It just such a maze of confusion & only God can show the way out of it. I noted again in a new way of seeing how some of the disciples turned away and others stayed... I stay like the others because who can I turn to Lord .. who else has the Truth. Methinks communion  it is to do with holiness and DNA Our human bloodline is tainted... which is why Christ does not have human fallen DNA... He was not conceived though physical intimacy but through Holy Spirit hence bypassing human bloodline. I once made the mistake of sharing that belief with two people who laughed and mocked Christ and me - hence I am sure it is the truth. It is backed up by Noah and the Ark - DNA bloodline. 
    That's all I can share at this point because it frightens me the whole thing …I didn't even know there was a brit ortho church... 
  • @ Livenotonevil The Culdees were orthodox... 

    @ Minatasgeel none of my original post exhibited hate twds Catholics. Why would I hate any Catholic? I hate the sly colonising system of Catholicism but one thing is clear - growing up Catholic we did not see humanity as a pecking order of cultural worthiness... and for that I am grateful
  • edited March 4
    The Priest who said Copts don't consume alcohol is merely stating something that was learned in his culture from 1,400 years of Arab control and in no way has any factual or historical premise in Christianity or Coptic culture.

    You are basing the value of one of the Holiest, if not THE, Holiest and most central part of an Apostolic Church on what one man -- from a different culture, who more than likely lives in an ethnic enclave of Egyptians, watches streaming Arabic TV at home and has little attachment to his current nation other than the freedoms it grants him to live his life as he wishes -- says?

    I was Roman Catholic until I was 28 years old. You have to understand cultural differences when you ask questions. You will very, very rarely get direct answers from a Coptic Priest in the sense that you and I understand. We are both from Western cultures. How you and I communicate is much less vague than it is in the Arabic language. We want details, explanations and we ask why and how things are the way they are. There is no organized information or formulated structure, such as, Eucharist Adoration in Eastern Christianity. Copts are by far the biggest into saying, "Holy Mysteries" and leaving it there. It can be frustrating.

    Now, some western born Copts are beginning to reignite the theological study that has dwindled in the last few centuries in the Coptic church and has lead to such an uneducated comment, like the Priest you spoke with. His words completely misinterprete the Eucharist and lead to confusion. It's embarrassing.

    Christ is not your imaginary friend who always agrees with you and thinks what you believe is truth. You certainly have a lot of vigor and desire to learn, but your perspective of who and what Christ is, is lacking and is self-serving. The one thing you would learn when coming to any Eastern Christian church is that it isn't just about you. It's about Christ. Your sense of entitlement towards Jesus being in some way only on your side is not healthy, shallow and unrealistic. And your dramatic topic changes at the end of your comments clearly shows a lack of understanding closure, and skews the legitimacy of your questions. If you want to ask important questions, act like an adult. Don't use the same ignorant response that a 12 year old girl who got grounded for staying out past their curfew would use.

    My criticism of you is not in any way a defense of my church, but to highlight your apparent lack of maturity, character and understanding of an educated discussion. Your post about a Bishop in Australia that was thankfully taken down was embarrassing as a former Roman Catholic and as a current Coptic Christian.

    I agree completely that the horrific, disgusting history of the Catholic church and the sick nature of what went on for centuries taints the Roman Catholic church to such a level they are losing thousands of members a year.

    That doesn't give you the right to approach any Bishop in such a manner. Maybe your Christ would ignore the Samaritan woman and spit on her, because that seems to be what you think Christ wanted?

    You once criticized me for, "tainting" the words of Pope Shenounda, then told me how I defend my, "Cult", which negates your criticism.

    If you actually read a book by Pope Shenounda, you would know that calmness, contemplation and meditation of the scriptures were the core elements of his writings. You show none of these qualities when discussing theological and cultural issues. You fill your posts with hatred and some self-serving relationship with a Christ that somehow believes you're always right.

  • @ Italian Coptic your catholic upbringing must have been dif from mine. I was brought up to respect repeat respect the priest and to a certain extent I still do as they are leaders for the ppl. Fr Reid praying over our slain giving last rites even to a brit soldier. Another priest prayed with a young man before he was executed for being accused of giving information - that priest though he begged for this young mans life to be spared by the ira - it wasn't (there was a war on & the rules of war were adhered to) the priest later had a massive breakdown over it/left the priesthood. There r priests who r worthy. See the dif is none of the priests told us to worship at the shrine of ethnocentricity. And for that I respect them. 
    The Coptic priest asked me face to face about my life whether I drank alcohol. He said you cannot join the Coptic church if u drink alcohol. He was surprised when I said no I don't drink don't like alcohol Why would a priest play me? Anyway enough is enough & I just about had enough.....……………….. I had to stop reading a tome on Coptic history - a monk took his eye out to prove his faith & another story was about sinners burning in hell. The believers on earth prayed for them and when they prayed the fire lifted so the sinners could see one another faces but when the prayers stopped the hellfire returned & covered the faces. This is profoundly twisted sado masochistic imaginings Bye
  • @ ItalianCoptic In case u not believe what i wrote - Very short clip Fr Reid in his own words... this is deep holy stuff  He lay between the two brits & also gave them last rites Fr Reid is in heaven for sure - he passed away ages ago Tis also really sad. We can all learn from this
     
  • edited March 5
    My Priest buys a six pack or two every summer and has one or two beers every once in a while. Two of the four priests who married me and my wife drank a glass of wine at the reception. I am not sure if the Priest would want you to worship the altar of, "Ethnocentrity" but the fact he said you cannot drink alcohol and be Coptic Orthodox is not true. I don't know if he was playing you, he was probably naive enough to think his statement was true. I am sure a majority of his parishioners have consumed alcohol, or drank a little too much at one time or another.

    That is not to disrespect him, but a lot of times they bring the guys from Egypt to a western country and if they didn't have children there, they tend to be ignorant of the culture in which they are serving. Two of my Priest's four children live here in the U.S. and get our culture, vernacular and how the social standards differ from their native culture and ours. That certainly has helped my Priest understand me and build a blessed relationship with me that is closer than even me and my father were before he passed.

    I know men who smoke cigarettes in my Priest's front yard when they stay over. He doesn't like it, but he certainly doesn't say they can't be part of the church if they smoke.

    I grew up in a culturally diverse Catholic church. When I grew up people weren't Italian/Irish/Filipino Catholics, but were just Catholic. And the Catholic church in the states is not the same as the rest of the world. It would look almost Protestant to you. They have Praise Bands at Catholic churches here! We had a monsenior who was obviously homosexual, and one of my Priests growing up was a well known alchoholic. That's probably why my position towards Priests is more apprehensive than yours. Two of my brothers are atheists from our Catholic upbringing, so that should show you something. Plus, the molestation scandals didn't help.

    The Copts have a huge disadvantage of being socially and culturally monogamous due to splitting from Rome and Constantinople after the Council of Chalcedon.

    The biggest thing that the Coptic church is dealing with is its assimilation into western cultures. We must educate clergy and laity on the difference between Egyptian social mores and values and the actual rules of the church.

    There is a young man who attended our church, whose mother is Egyptian and his father is American. They attended both our church and a Roman Catholic church. One of the things I brought up was the diversity of Catholicism, and that Catholics present themselves as, "Catholic" far more than Copts present themselves as Orthodox. I am a Deacon at a Monastery, and of course I would want then to come to our church. I would rather be honest with someone. They now attend a Catholic church. Sometimes your own ignorance can bite you. That seems to be the case with you, and that young man.
  • edited March 5
    OK... I will try & do try to be more accommodating Reason now sole reason am hanging in with Coptic church is because it is clean squeaky clean as in sexual immorality within clergy. God show me this the first time I go... mad as it must sound I saw in my spirit angels were flying all over the people & Holy Spirit on the people... It was Christmas eve & first time I ever go to a Coptic church. I nearly cried because it meant so much to me. It was a clean place of worship. This year legal action by lawyer for me re abuse as minor re RC church hopefully concludes soon The strain is too enormous. Nuff said Re upbringing I am the only believer left from my family of origin... my parents were deeply religious I grew up surrounded by crucifixes, holy cards, feast days saints and so on. The priest visiting was like God comin to yer home all that sorta stuff. 
    Re the Coptic priest: I started out revering him like a holy man & ended up fighting with him (verbally).It was very fullon… u know how some of us Irish can get when we enraged.  I think he has cursed me spiritually... I just got jack of being told how amazing martyrdom was when I know he never seen the horror of war, killings and so on... It is theoretical waffle imo & also emphasising poverty like it is noble. Poverty drives the people mad - grinding poverty is hell and should not be glorified. If they so keen on it all why stay in a western country... My biggest mistake was overt revering of a human being... it ended badly as always will because only God should be revered that way.
    And I was not wrong re the bishop posting I was right right right. bye
    Addon the two brits who were executed - there is a story behind that but u can look it up... when you oppress and slaughter indigenous ppl eventually the tipping point happens Those unfortunate soldiers rocked up to a funeral of one of ours & a funeral of ours three days prior had been bombed etc by brits... It sad sad horrendous stuff. They did not however deserve to die that way & Fr Reid is a Irishman to be proud of although I used to think he was a colluder - he wasn't...  He navigated his way through the hate & showed the way out. 
  • Dear @SaintJaneDoe,
    First of all I am sorry for what you have gone through.. Secondly, let me address some points that you and @ItalianCoptic have said, admitting that you may not like what I am going to say very much. You see I have lived in Egypt until I finished university and then I came to live in the UK ever since. 
    About Copts, you are right in saying that they have problems with their morals (as @ItalianCoptic also mentioned) especially with regards islamicisation of their thinking, but honestly speaking this should not be the general rule. Yes, some clergy have a closed-minded look, but I don't know exactly what the church canons say - however, I will not be surprised if it says that one should abstain from alcoholic drinks during days of fasting. 
    As far as the church herself is concerned, again as you pointed out she is more or less asceticism driven. The teachings are focused on poverty, because Jesus was poor; He lived a poor life, He didn't have a place to rest His head, His clothes were probably just enough, and He was not invited to too many banquets (as far as we know). Poor equals humble. However, if people do run away from their life in Egypt to seek riches, then that is wrong. I came to the UK because I wanted a better life - I don't know how I will be judged (because God is the judge), but I ask you to pray for me. Running away from persecution, from oppression, things that I understand that you can very well comprehend, but the difference is, both you two have been born and raised in rich countries, where there is constant encouragement to think philosophically, and use the brain - that is not the case with Egyptians, as they struggle for their daily bread so to speak, and the level and ranking of their education systems is way below First World Countries. Talking about martyrdom, yes, it may be very difficult to comprehend martyrdom, but it is not necessarily associated with wars, or the feelings of "betrayal" - many martyrs have put their lives on the line because of love, and because of this very point I had mentioned about you both, of principles and adherence to the non-bodily (I hope you understand what I mean). Saying all of this, that is not defence of the Copts, but just to explain their mentality that I am sure you are starting to get to grips with. 
    Lastly, a point mainly made by @ItalianCoptic, regarding assimilation - I believe we the Copts are weak-willed, and weak in our personality, that everyone around talks about wanting us to be like them. Why? Why should the church conform to societies she is in? Yes, of course, one purpose of the church is a missionary aim, but please remember that the main aim in opening those churches was to serve the Egyptian immigrant community away from Chalcedonian denominations (be them Orthodox, Catholic, or any other). In fact, I used to go to other churches (Catholic, Protestant) in posh areas in Cairo when I was young, and nobody there talked about assimilation. The priest was Australian, one of the deacons South African, the congregation mixed Egyptians, Canadians, US, UK citizens, and no one talked about Arabicising the prayers. They were all in English. In some churches the prayers were in Latin (yes, in Cairo). Why is it when the Coptic church is spread in the West, that the West demands assimilation and integration? Because Copts are too humble, perhaps stupid, perhaps insecure seeking external validation, but most certainly because they are weak-willed, and weak-principled. They don't read about their own history - the Alexandrian forefathers protected the Christian faith altogether (not just the Orthodox as you are aware), and they actually have a "foreigners' complex", i.e. whatever is done by a foreigner is superior, and must be followed. In fact, talking about the Catholic church making concessions for societies in other countries, is not really such a good thing in my view. I am aware that one of the Catholic popes in the 1980's or the 1990's was told that whole tribes in Africa are leaving Christianity and converting to Islam, because the latter gives them the chance to marry more than one woman (four or five even). So what did he do? He allowed polygamy in such societies. This is wrong. Does Jesus allow concessions, or does He demand a firm stance in our faith according to His teachings, and the teachings of the apostles? Rhetorical question, no need to answer. So yes, I think it is very admirable to have British Orthodox Church, American Orthodox Church, French Orthodox Church, all emanating from the Coptic Orthodox, but why does the latter have to also conform and comply? Again, I know the answer to that question, because it is already happening around me, which is wrong. I know you will be probably offended or upset by what I am saying, but this is my opinion. At the end of the day, the church should take us away from the world, not herself conform to rules and regulations of society she is in. It was wrong in the first place to give up the Coptic language, to Arabicise the liturgy, to allow politicians to enter and defile the church, but yes, weak-willed. 
    Last, but not least, I was going to reply to the post about the Coptic bishop before it was deleted - I agreed with most of what you said then (so I hope you are not very upset).. hehe.. 
    Oujai qen P[c
  • edited March 6

    @
    ophadece Thanks a lot for your insights – no am not offended
    actually feel abit of relief from the complexities of everything
    rattling in me head… Re language – it would be beautiful to hear
    the Coptic language spoken and used in realville & church All I
    know are some words from Coptic hymns but I did spent time
    researching your language. Meself I love all languages including
    Arabic because all the worlds languages contain the kernel of our
    respective cultures. When genocide is inflicted on any culture the
    lst thing they want to erase is the native language as by doing so
    they destroy collectively and individually an indigenous person/s
    solidified knowing of who they are. As you experientially know and so
    many of us diverse tribes do - the outcomes of genocide are despair,
    despising ones own self/culture and general fragmentation. 



    A
    Copt runs this website which I subscribed to and this article is so
    pertinent to what you be saying! 



    ON
    COPTIC NATIONALISM
    في
    القومية القبطية


    DIOSCORUS
    BOLES ON COPTIC NATIONALISM
    ديسقورس
    بولس في القومية القبطية

    Latest
    article on Coptic language

    https://copticliterature.wordpress.com/2019/03/06/the-folly-of-our-fathers/



    I
    always got my bredrin… they got my back and me theirs… For 20
    years I stood with Aboriginal Australian Christian friends and if all
    goes to nought with Coptic church I will return to open arms of their
    peoples…. They cannot grasp why I put myself through the church
    ortho torture but u see my cultural I suppose way of innerstanding
    God and worship is very close to the Coptic way… One of the most
    special things I seen/heard in my life was holy scriptures read in an
    Aboriginal Australian language. Some rare Holy Spirit anointed
    footage:
    Aboriginal Australian Elders/Fathers Baptising their
    people Western Australia.. Many tribes are desert people. Genocide
    on Aboriginal Australia continued up into the 1980’s




    “We
    are all flowers in God’s garden” African Orthodox priest
    Stunningly beautiful relay… he is a seanchai/storyteller for Gods
    people. (Meself I perceive me as a daisy with some petals missing
    hahaha)




    Re
    communion
    – I have given up on innerstanding it… it is what is –
    a mystery and I am just gonna believe without total understand… God
    is too vast/holy to question anymore & most of His believers are as thick as me and do not know much more hahaha...

    Wanna
    write more but no time… slan agus beannacht Blessings in God and
    good health on u.


  • edited March 7
    The Coptic church does not has to conform to American culture, it has to understand different cultures to succeed. 

    "..the main aim in opening those churches was to serve the Egyptian immigrant community away from Chalcedonian denominations.."

    The first Copts came here in the 1960's and 70's. The vast majority, including my wife and her family, came here in the mid-late 1990's. I am American, although I come from a culture with strange customs and I am used to hearing different languages. My son is due in 3 weeks. He has heard a lot more Arabic than English. My father passed away, and my mother has alzheimer's disease. My Abouna and Tasoni will be his grandparents, and they barely speak English. That is what it means to be American.

    It isn't all white people in Hollywood calling each other, "Bro" and all of us hating black and brown people. 

    My son will be half Egyptian. That's after one generation. In my wife's family, of the eight cousins who are our age, four married Americans. They are all Coptic Orthodox, but they are not Egyptian. If the point of the church is to only serve Egyptian immigrants, what will happen when my wife's parents generation that came here dies? 

    What about when my son is 18 or 19? Will my son's cousins marry Egyptians? What happens when all the Egyptians who immigrated here die and the only ones left are born here? Should the church just go back to Egypt?

    If an American General and his army came to a village in Afghanistan and let's say, he was intelligent enough to understand the local customs? 

    He would then ask the village elders if his army may stay in or around the village. There would probably be less resistance from the local population as such a gesture would show a sign of respect for another culture.  I am not saying to force our customs on your culture, but don't try to be ignorant of the inevitability that after a few generations the Coptic culture will blend into an American, Australian, Norwegian, Canadian or French culture

    The church must NOT forfeit its cultural traditions or Liturgical language. We are a very diverse country. The chances of my son or grandchildren marrying an Italian or Egyptian is less likely than marrying a Anglo-American, merely based on numbers.

    I am in a program out of New York (I live about 6 hours west of New York, but the program is offered online) through their Diocese. It is called the Archdeacon Habib Guirguis Institute of Coptic Studies from the Dioceses of New York and New England.  You can look it up on Facebook and see some guy named Greg with an Italian surname on there, and that's me. I am the only non-Egyptian by ethnicity or birth out of the 60 students in the program.

    The classes are all in Arabic. I don't speak Arabic. Thankfully, they offer PowerPoints in English and the Nuns help me to translate, as does my wife. 

    What tradition does that keep by putting the entire program in Arabic in an English speaking country? Does that mean I want to force them to speak only English? No. I have no problem with it, but I am not important enough? They said of the 60 students, only 10 wanted English, so they put it in Arabic?

    Is it how the Apostles went to Rome and Greece? They only spoke Aramaic and the people have to learn it? The story of the 100 sheep and the 1 who got away...they just let him go and were like, "Nah, it's cool we have 99."?

    It is larger than how you word it. The weakness of our church is what I would call in English, "Character." My wife and I are extremely close to our Abouna and his family. Much closer than if we were at a big church. We're at a small Monastery with maybe 10 families at most. The more I got to know Abouna, the more I see his faults, weaknesses, mistakes, his life problems, and it makes him more human. That is a good thing. 

    Our church shows our human weakness. I am very critical of the church in some ways, but they are being themselves. They admit to their ignorance. I would rather have someone be honest and show themselves as a real person, rather than putting on some fake face.

    But, what is the purpose of the church? There are things I must answer, because in about three years I will be serving the church full time as a Priest, and at of all places a Monastery. So, then who am I to serve as I am not Egyptian? Why would they nominate me?

    I am certainly not mad at you and I have enjoyed our conversations. I am just trying to say the church is bigger than a culture, language or an ethnicity. I believe strongly in keeping Coptic in our church. If you believe the purpose of the church is to only cater to Egyptians, why are there American Priests who are not Egyptian? 

    The purpose of the church is bigger than you make it, and it's not only yours to have. The church is a beautiful gem, even with it's cuts and scrapes. And it's for all people, and that's how we as Coptic Orthodox Christians, and even Oriental Orthodox Christians, should view it.
  • edited March 7

    Addon rest of what I wtd to say

    I think if more Copts
    opened their hearts to other cultures surrounding them that
    empowering and healing of themselves and between tribes can happen.
    There is historical trauma, there is trans generational trauma and
    there is ongoing trauma for Copts living in Egypt.

    Why the Copts do not
    recognise the suffering of their Palestinian brothers and sisters in
    humanity who r living in the worlds biggest outdoor prison is beyond
    me. Where is the dialogue?




    • The drama
      re
      threat of changing the church liturgy/traditions
      and so forth is ultra paranoid. No-one is going to change it unless
      you yourselves do…
      Get a grip people! You like other
      oppressed tribes of the earth have to salvage what is left of your
      culture,
      language and preserve it, grow it back up as
      best you can… Pass the torch to next generation. 




    • America
      was built on genocide and Freemasonry – to kid yourselves
      otherwise is delusional.
      It is part of a Babylonian system. 




    • The
      Islamists/
      salafist/wahabists militants are not the
      majority of Islam – they are the product of
      Saudi/British/American/Zionist
      political collusion…
      satan’s boys/
      mercenaries – the devils foot
      soldiers
      We are in a ancient war both literal and
      spiritual.
      And oppression that happened
      through
      out history to indigenous Egyptians
      is
      heavily linked in there.




    • Pope
      Shenouda knew this and I was really amazed reading some of his
      writings as he understood
      clearly what is going down…
      That is why he didnt want Copts visiting
      Israel/Jerusalem because he felt it the suffering of both Christian
      and Muslim Palestinians. Atallah Hanna - Greek Orthodox
      priest/
      Palestine is always a worthy
      mention. It is Gods hand on hi
      s life that he has not
      been taken out… yet… a very brave orthodox Christian man -
      is
      actually Palestinian himself.

    @ophadece

    Very worthy viewing... 

    Our
    Spirits Don't Speak English: Indian Boarding School







  • "America
    was built on genocide and Freemasonry – to kid yourselves
    otherwise is delusional. 
    It is part of a Babylonian system"

    What does that have to do with anything? Do you think all Americans are naive about our history?  Apples aren't even native to North America and we say, "As American as Apple Pie."

    You do realize America had, according to most historians throughout the world, the largest and most violent Civil War in human history? The entire war was based on slavery. Think about that. 

    You don't think we already know how crappy our history is?
    We dropped the most bombs in human history during the Vietnam War for absolutely no purpose, other than the egos of the men in power. You don't think we realize that?

    Australia is a fake America. They try to act like us, and then complain about us at the same time. Save it for an American who can't read a map or pick up a book about other cultures. I already know American history and I am keenly aware of the horrible aspects of it. 

    Stop looking backwards and learn to look forwards. I get it.



  • @
    ItalianCoptic it is profound ignorance to mock as you have &
    shows clearly you do not have any grasp whatsoever on how indigenous
    people suffer, feel think… You just trample over it all. Re
    training to be a Coptic priest – if you cannot grasp rudimentary
    insights/understand, respect other cultures you are unsuitable to be
    a priest dealing with individuals suffering or a peoples collective
    suffering. NB THE PAST IS ALWAYS IN THE PRESENT. We carry our
    ancestors wounds, (carry the good also – tenacity, faith in God,
    determination our language albeit remmant, our songs our ways etc)
    With carrying the bad - until the wounds are addressed they shape us
    and cause issues such as fear, depression, addiction, suicide anger
    hate outwards or hate imploded isolation… The wounds can also make
    younger generation susceptible to militancy and violent
    ideologies/responses as they lose hope/faith & see flesh warfare
    rather than spiritual warfare as a solution…



    Our
    people are with us in the unseen realm You mock this and yet
    acknowledge God angels saints martyrs… Well hello!! The past is
    always in present…



    If
    not so why believe in God/Jesus Christ.? Also in Revelations in Bible
    we worship the Lord in our native tongues… think think think



    That
    is why Iosa came to earth – to restore us… I suppose you perceive
    Knights Templar as heros when the truth is they butchered and
    bludgeoned innocent souls to death… It is a waste of time trying to
    explain more to you. The truth is in your face - the whole world
    is a colony under satans dominion
    Wish you well in your life and
    your fam. Our very own seanchai/tribal storyteller Damien exposes it
    all… His finest message… The pipes at the end would bring a
    tear to a glass eye but probably not your eyes. You’ll never kill
    our will to be free…
    (Come back soon Lord Jesus Christ… )

    Could write more but cannae be bothered. It is clear the Coptic church is not for me



    We
    suffer with the Native American, the Indian in Asia Aboriginal
    Australia The African people with their history so deep And our
    children still weep and our lives are still cheap You came from
    Germany, from France, from England And from Spain From Belgium and
    from Portugal You all done much the same You took what was not yours
    Went against your own Bible You broke your own laws Just to out do
    the rival But did you ever apologize For the hundreds and millions of
    lives You destroyed and terrorised’











  • Dear @SaintJaneDoe,
    I very much appreciate and commend your stance in defending the minorities and the indigenous people.. God bless you and bless your service. Please do not forget to mention me and my wife in your prayers always..
    Dear @ItalianCoptic,
    First of all congratulations are in order for the arrival of your baby soon, and also for your near future ordination to be a priest. God bless you always and bless all what your hands reach out for..
    Secondly, editing posts on the fly is usually difficult for me, someone who needs time and revision to revamp their opinions. But, in short, you mistook my argument and focused on one point only in what I said - I said that the main aim was one thing, but also that the church has a missionary role and must disseminate the faith, dogma, and rituals in the Coptic Orthodox way. That is why I will always argue for the Coptic language in the liturgy and the vespers and midnight praises. I am glad you agreed to some extent. However I am not deluded. I don't appreciate holding meetings in a foreign country and talking in Arabic, which as you say is not even our language in the first place. Exceptions may be a small meeting of solely Egyptian people, or a presenter who cannot speak English, but I guess that is not the case you talked about.
    I am not arguing against the church understanding the culture she is in at all, but that should not be a basis for imitating other denominations. I am not going to predict what is going to happen in the future as I am in a very similar position expecting a son in the next few weeks, but I would like to convey the message that our roots are different and they should remain different - at least this is one aspect of differentiating oneself from the world. However the British mentality and society is very different from the American. My mother and my brother live in LA, California and I understand your point about the diversity of the one family, compared to here. Brits are very proud and steadfast in holding on to principles against external influences and I guess Americans are more indifferent and welcoming of other ideologies, but please correct me if I am wrong. All in all, I wish that the Coptic Church doesn't find its character dissolving in the middle of all the worldly forces and influences..
    Ⲟⲩϫⲁⲓ ϧⲉⲛ Ⲡϭⲥ
  • edited March 8
    Thank the both of you. You have given me a wonderful beginning to our Great Fast. Even our arguments have been, at least at the main argument, about our faith.

    @ophadece Americans are less, "clanny" than the Brits. I know Brits who are Indian, and they must act, "British." To be American may mean to clean your weapon and eat Bacon for breakfast, to being a vegan who won't eat honey because bees live in, "close quarters." It is very diverse, and although the media paints it a certain way because of our politics, most Americans don't care what color you are, what you pray to or what you believe as long as you keep it to yourself.

    There are so many different accents, regional traditions and cultures here that many of those who reside in a region usually absorb some tradition from that region into a culture. An Italian from New York may speak with an accent you see in Mafia movies, while I was raised in the midwest, and based on my accent alone was never regarded as Italian when I lived in New York because I sounded like, "I was on the radio."
    I am actually very, supportive of keeping traditions. I go to my wife's parents church and they use electric candles!! The look on my face is priceless, my wife says!

    I support the youth to understand the Deaconate ranks and responsibilities, as now Deacons take that responsibility as an ethnic right and ignore clerical responsibility as teachers and leaders of a church...not just the money coming in.

    And also that we must teach the youth, and our adult parishioners, about the Praxis of the church.
    You and I are actually in agreement in everything. I apologize for misrepresenting your words. My wife tells me I act more pregnant than she does, so my complete apologies.
  • @ ItalianCoptic Say prayers for all of us giving testimony at nz royal commission. Pray we get justice. I made this page for all us survivors today The grief near wrecked me I don't think any of us survivors can go near a church again I tried very hard  - It is just too traumatic & we r not understood. Use the insights shared to assist others tho when u a priest and all slan.
  • I listen to Radio NZ daily. That's an odd coincidence you found the one American guy who actually knows what you mean.
  • @ItalianCoptic, I can't tell you how happy I am to hear we are in agreement, and more importantly your views for the future of the church under your leadership.. May God bless your service always and give you the wisdom and the strength to tolerate the difficulties we all face with the new generation.
    On a more personal note, you are from an Italian background, married a Coptic woman, living in America and soon to be a priest (and a father). It does not get any better than that for me.. If only there is the option of swapping lives?! Haha.. Did I tell you before I am a big Juventini al scudetto e Milanese al UEFA Champions League? Did I tell you that I started to learn Italian and because I like Italy more than Egypt, Phoebe thinks I am an undercover Italian spy? In a way Italy ought to act as a role example for us Copts for the way they have revived Latin into Italian and the great inclination towards different people nationalities.. I have a few Italian friends and I only rue their belief in the "advancement" of the church! Homosexuality, women priests, etc, but I am not Catholic and I have no desire to believe in those things.. Sorry for digressing, I just love Italians as you can see.. God bless you dear @ItalianCoptic and please tell me when and where your ordination is going to be? I would love to be there..
    Ⲟⲩϫⲁⲓ ϧⲉⲛ Ⲡϭⲥ
  • edited March 10
    @ophadece My Father has told me it will be about three years. I am certainly beginning to understand why it takes so long. I could write another long response, but as it is the Feast.of Pope Kyrillos' death, I will just say I am not deserving of all of my blessing; my amazing wife, my health and always having roof over my head.

    I certainly will pray for you to be here if God wills me to the Priesthood. The miracles of God are sometimes unseen. He took a man who in 2010 didn't believe in God, to a Deacon who complains to his Sunday School class they need to read the Agpeya daily! It is a blessing.

    Good choice on the team. Juventus is mostly Southern players and my family is from Campania and Sicily.

    I once served with a Bishop who came to introduce himself and spoke Arabic. I said, "Abouna, I am American." He replied, "Why didn't your parents teach you Arabic?" :-p

    We're all Mediterranean. Una faccia, una razza. "One face, one race."
  • @ItalianCoptic nothing is ever coincidence... the world is small very small. I hope u come to your senses & realise the golden calf of the Coptic church is Egypt & their overt pride in their ancestors being Pharoahs. Nearly all the satanic witchcraft and so on is from Pharoahs. It is no coincidence they are moving in league with the Vatican... Do you truly believe in the visions of Mary over the churches in Egypt?... Just curious.  Marian worship -- comphrendo.. . I am very pleased no Aboriginal Australian has joined the church. It will not happen on my watch & as for our mad wee Ireland... our ppl have had enough of religion so really its sorted. I found out that in 2017 the copt pope signed an agreement with Vatican which recognises Catholic baptism so no need for baptism in Coptic church for ex RC attending. That Coptic priest I saw messed bigtime with my head. I paid him for the books he gave me though he never asked me to. Now having read them all I want a refund hahaha.
    The Sydney Bishop Daniel ripped off millions of church money Everyone knows but no one does anything That's religion for ya The one thing I can vouch for to date is there is no sexual abuse clergy stuff that I know of in Coptic church Ta Boom such is the deep spiritual life 
  • edited March 11
    @SaintJaneDoe

    I have no idea where to go on that one.
  • Dear @ItalianCoptic, I am so sorry for the late reply. You know I can't agree more with your statement that God's miracles are unseen and probably unfelt too. I am similar in a way that I was away from the church for a long long time and was only pulled towards her by His grace, especially tasbeha (chants) when I was at uni, and I had no idea such a thing existed (tasbeha I mean). I actually forgot to comment on your previous point on young deacons: once again I find myself agreeing blindly with every word you say.. Hehe.. It irks me to see young deacons putting on the tonya and entering the altar to serve as they have been given the green light to do that. Now if I start I will not be able to finish on why this phenomenon started happening altogether, from the potential boredom of grown up men, to the lack of understanding by young families of the sacred nature and mysterious environment the altar represents, passing through the clergy encouraging unwittingly the continued ignorance of apostolic canons and proper rituals and treating the church as a display medium (like a theatre or cinema or something like that). I was taught that it was inappropriate to applaud inside the church!!! Anyway I'd better not start.. Hehe.. God bless you and pray for me and I look forward to hearing your news whenever anything gets clearer.
    Dear @SaintJaneDoe, I am afraid you got the wrong end of the stick and I believe your negative experience with that priest makes your judgement rather clouded. I think you are projecting earlier difficult experiences with religion and nationalism in Ireland with the Coptic population, who really really really, trust me, resent their association with the pharaohs.. In fact I hope that they have some degree of nationalism as I was talking about Brits, Italians and others but unfortunately they don't.. Other than that I can only ask you to mention me, my wife and my yet to come son in your prayers..
    Ⲟⲩϫⲁⲓ ϧⲉⲛ Ⲡϭⲥ
  • @SaintJaneDoe

    I didn't notice the part about Catholic Baptism earlier. I was rebaptized in 2010. I hadn't gone to Mass or taken communion in fourteen years. My mother was pretty upset and I also felt a little upset at the time.

    It just changed in 2017. It also can be done at the discretion of a Priest or Bishop based on the specific circumstances of the person who wishes to convert.

    I was by no means a practicing Catholic when I became Coptic Orthodox, but it was a slap in the face between two supposed Apostolic churches to discredit the RC Baptism.
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