The coptic church strives for perfection like all apostolic churches should

edited June 28 in Faith Issues
Still there are a few doctrines I do not agree with such as the doctrine of not allowing one person of a valid divorce to remarry even if they are completely repentant and do not think you are a lesser person than their new desired relationship. I don't see the church even wanting to discuss this to say why they think this is right. This doctrine does not prove the church is false or because apostolic churches are not perfect there is no true church for the early church taught the truth but this does not mean error can not be a problem being spread in the church for God gave us free will and it is up to the church to not let the gates of hades prevail. Many of us are even ignorant we are in error because we hold to certain church fathers and neglect the others or may misinterpret them and we do not consider everything to make a conclusion and obtain God's help. Therefore all apostolic churches have salvation because of valid sacraments but we should seek the full truth to reach more people through support
And everyone within their church to be helpful should teach the truth not assuming their church is perfect and not accepting things blindly while still being part of the church and benefiting from sacraments

Comments

  • Sorry to the first to answer this Mike as you would probably have heard too much of me.
    However, to answer the question of marriage and about re-marrying. When we are married, we are united in one in Christ. So to have this union seperated is very serious. It would be up to the church to recoqnise that the relationship was not able to reconcile because there is no repentance. That being said, how can someone move onto another marriage that has been sanctified by the Holy Spirit through the church according to its doctrines (disciplines and responsibilities)?
    And the truth? It is to spread the Gospel for the remission of sin. Not to have the gospel meaning changed.
    Have you every played that game where everyone sits in a circle and the first one whispers a message to the person next to them and it keeps going until it gets back to the first person? Then they see if the message was the same as the first. Most times its not.
    We have the gospel delivered from Saint Mark, given to the early church until today, that we keep the tradition and interpretation unchanging but very much alive for faith in Christ.
    The gospel is the revelation of Christ or the revealing of God. Should that revealing message change because some have their own interpretations?
  • Thanks no it shouldn't but how do we know that is actually what the church taught when st mark was pope ?
  • After Jesus' resurrection, he came back to the apostles for forty days and in that time He taught them how to do church.
  • edited June 29
    I intendeed to post something like this yesterday when my thoughts were less clear

    Anyway maybe remarriage is a sin but is there any sin not forgivable ?
    The Samaritan woman had 5 husbands but maybe she was widowed 5 times or they left her I read in the article below

    http://thewell.intervarsity.org/in-focus/revisiting-woman-well

    Would God tolerate someone to cheat against 5 husbands and have children from each of them ? In the Old Testament a cheater was stoned and this would mean they would have no other children

    Maybe He would but some misunderstand repentance. Some think I will do all sins and seek God to make me have repentance for the sins but you may find you are incapable of repentance when your time is up

    Otherwise why do I have to repent of any of my sins
    But the coptic church believes when the Samaritan woman said He told me all things that I ever did that means He knew all her sins. Therefore they believe they were sins

    Children are a blessing from God to His people. If an adulterer can have all the benefits of a righteous person and still be just as happy before God and they were in no way made to earn it but were accomodated for to make repentance easy it may not be fair for the righteous person. Therefore I don't know all the answers. I refuse to let people think I know God's will so they follow me. That is something they need to learn from their own search and God

    How can one repent of something he felt he benefited from? Not judging but I don't know all the answers

    remarriage I thought should be considered if they are repentant if there is no other way to prevent people from hooking up with many people but that is still rebellious and no one should give them attention. God will not force them to do good but will judge the unrepentant
  • We need to help eachother, help the ones who are not loving and honoring God by their marriage and help the ones who are divorced and falling into more sin, we have to make their lives stable by the fellowship and full of prayer. If there is anyone who is divorced the right thing is to bring them back together if they didnt commit adultery with anyone after the divorce. If they did we have to take it from there, but to advice or help anyone to fall into that situation is truly harmful
  • edited June 30
    I realise I seemed to say some harsh things completely against the gospel and misunderstanding it. The behaviour of the sinner is wrong but even the worst of sinners with thousands of sins if he is still alive can be saved and I think just as easily as us but he must go and sin no more and make the same effort the saved do. What about those who die early who may have commited less sins ? I may not know but I think there is a reason. I believe they will never die without being aware of their close death to make a decision to repent unless they have in fact been more evil in that short time they are alive and also even if they go to hell their punishment will be less as those who sin plenty and do not repent. Those who sin plenty do not know they will die soon and if they are found in sin at their time they will be judged. The other important point is Jesus said and there are those who are last who will be first and the first last. It is not only the sinner whose sins are obvious that is in danger but also the hidden sinner who could be sinning much or more in different ways as Jesus said for us all to watch because we are to consider ourselves the worst of sinners and He says we are all in danger. Do you suppose they were worst sinners ? I tell you no but unless you repent you will all likewise perish. What about the sinner who appears to copy all our sins too only God knows and I say out of humility because hopefully some of my sins are not really as bad so people should not think if there is no hope for me there is no hope for them

    Lord have mercy on me and help me stop saying error or shutup from the beginning but I felt I should correct this
  • edited June 30
    I wanted to say yesterday I told my dad last time I think jesus said if a divorced woman remarries she commits adultery as well as the one who marries her and he even supported that more than me when I brought it up maybe they can remarry. He said you can not marry a divorced woman who left her husband for no valid reason and she can not remarry. That is jesus law you should be careful when questioning it. He said jesus made that punishment to try to prevent the sin.

    It is a sin repentance is still possible. I don't know what is required of them to repent if to leave the new partner whether or not they had children or not

    As for children of second or more marriages he thinks we should not be jealous they have children but a Christian should wish well for their children just as he does for his own. And God will reward the truly righteous children

    Anyone living in sin should fear he can die unrepentant at any time but the worst sinners have just as much hope as others if they repent now because those things are according to the judgement of God

    The below may not be infallible but those in the church who know the truth should know the concerns of some people so they should address it and see why the church taught as it did if it is different but it may not be

    Also I'm not sure it applies to those who are excused for not yet knowing Christ if that is possible. But not if they have no reason or good reason to not accept God except they don't want to be kind to God. It may apply mostly or only to those who find it difficult to accept God because they were raised non Christian with lack of these morals and were not sure Christianity is true even atheist families.
    Maybe one can not know so he better accept God
    My dad believes that is atleast a reason for God not to punish them and maybe I'm not sure he believes they can get married again if their marriage was never christian but they can only have 1 christian marriage or 1 marriage in general if they just don't want to give God their heart for no good or reason at all
    but if people use that as an excuse not to be Christian maybe they were never excused to begin with.
    Why would an atheist who married an atheist expect them to be under God's law.
    You can't have God's benefits without being of God though I think it is wrong to leave them and they have to repent. I'm not sure of that case what to think. Maybe my judgement in this matter is ungodly and hurts atheists and further alienates them from God. I'm not sure even in that case a second marriage is okay.
    You must not remarry even if you were both atheists if you both agreed on the morals of faithfulness unless you had no power because you were not a atheist wilfully because some are atheist wilfully so they have power to be faithful but they can remarry if their partner cheats on them but their soul is not safe if they keep marrying other atheists though repentance is possible unless you marry a Christian or only one more atheist marriage and never marry again but that is just punishing yourself
    though repentance is possible in whatever state it is not wise to sin now for today is the day of salvation
  • edited July 1
    I must not make the non wilful atheist believe he can not remain faithful to their spouse for that seems not respecting the marriage of other religions and atheists. Some have remained faithful so they can but if they fall and one day be Christian they can marry a Christian but that must not be the intention or they don't deserve their spouse anyway. They ought to become Christian in their current marriage not because I said but because they should search and see it is true and it is not right to delay salvation willingly and maybe they should atleast say they are seeking the truth and they believe God is important because that seems to help the spouse who loves them. But maybe they ought to become Christian in their current marriage
  • edited July 2
    Overall I'm not sure even those who commited adultery without intending to but they got tempted that we should punish them and that remarriage should not be allowed in some cases if they feel so depressed in life and not good mentally and they repented.Even my dad said recently before the last thing I said he said but he may be referring to only some people that if you meet someone divorced because she commited adultery and you meet her accidently and you don't know her and you think she is good now and she changed that we have to look at people as individuals you could maybe give her a chance but he seemed to acknowledge jesus words when I brought it up but I don't know his complete mind.
    I think I agree remarriage should be allowed in some cases for their well being
  • edited July 3
    There is a reason why God said a priest must not marry a divorced woman yet told Hosea to marry a prostitute. Much or all of the land was then in spiritual adultery but they did not intend that so that anyone should marry them

    We can not know if an adulterer has changed and one may not be pure like Hosea but be defiled in accepting an adulterer. Also the adulterer may cheat on you too and therefore hinder your well being to do God's commandments and if you have kids by her this can affect your kids atleast temporarily because they don't want to think bad about their mother because they think their mother is in them and your kids may affect others kids if their sins involve them . Because it is written train up your child in the way he should go and when he is old he will not depart from it. Some people have more advantages to enter the kingdom it seems but everyone is still called. As Solomon had some mercy because of David maybe because God accepted Solomon parents and david raised him well and so God respects his prayers for him

    If your wife won't raise your children well it is better not to have children if they allow this to make them not repent

    However you may consider it if you think she tried with others and found no one

    They should trust God to find them someone
  • all these cases are complex, so it is not for us to judge. God will give wisdom to our priests and bishops, so we just need to pray for them.
    if someone from outside the church gets divorced before becoming a Christian, he or she gets a fresh start because he / she is born again in baptism.
    so it is not our job to tell people who are not Christian how to live. we should just show them a good example.
  • edited July 3
    That's the problem with religion you Lay aside the commandment of God for your tradition. It is not the tradition of the church but what was invented

    God does not ask us to follow our church without our heart blindly

    I will explain soon

    You assume Protestants can not live faithful together

    There is always mercy especially (because I hold there is still mercy even for all repentant sinners ) for those who failed who did not know better at the time for some reason but that doesn't mean you should not do the best thing in your situation now

    But I pray for our bishops and priests who wish to do God's will especially those who have experience and knowledge in these matters
  • edited July 3
    It is not only the priests who can judge matters. Jesus said in the new covenant all shall know Me from the least to the greatest and david said I have more understanding than all my teachers because I meditate on your statutes. However it is prideful to think you likely will know everything on your own because some are more likely to be more virtuous than you in some cases and they received wisdom just as Jacob blessed his sons and prophecied for them what God told him so the bishop should prophecy over the priest by laying on of hands as Jacob layed his hand and Paul did to Timothy and God would bless it and make them very likely to fulfill their prophecy if they seek His will but God still gives gifts to people who seek it themselves though harder. There is a time when a priest shall know more but have you never heard take the talent from him and give to another and unfortunately sometimes all priests who are accepted in the church could be blind and do not care at all for Gods truth but tradition but are silent and indifferent. A bishop must be able to teach not Lord things over people without explanation

    We know only the apostles can lay hands for none other than them could give the Holy Spirit
  • edited July 4
    I agree normally the priest is the one who can judge a matter if he has the gift in this matter he has certain gifts common to all and we can not assume there are many priests in apostasy. If they are God will provide new or work without them but we can not assume

    The bible says we must submit to those who rule over us as those who must give account. Therefore even if we can find God will without them they were made by God to help our salvation

    If a priest or bishop was to ruin my marriage I would not be okay with him but I would not resist him but I know God will have the last word
  • edited July 4
    We can teach others what is wrong yet sometimes we should maybe not stop them from doing what they do unless their health is at risk like suicides atleast we should try to talk them out of it. The same with homosexual marriage whether it goes through or not we should voice our concern in public and atleast vote for what is right if we think it helps more than harms. We must not show them hatred.


    If someone converts to orthodoxy and their spouse is still protestant you must not leave them as Paul says only if the unbeliever departs. You have to love them not despise them.

    If they had the ability to live faithful lives as many do who never knew orthodoxy is God's will for them at this time and that they thought they would make division at this time for something they do not know is definitely true sometimes appearing true and sometimes false and so they may really doubt they need to join the church and doubt the church knows where all will go not seeing it has done enough on earth to witness and even Phillip tells the eunuch who believed not to get baptised if he does not believe with all his heart. Therefore they have to seek

    or in fact they believe orthodoxy is false because they have been taught false things about it then  in all these cases they would be able to live righteous just like the rich young ruler who obeyed all the commandments jesus mentioned then if they divorce it is a sin but as there is forgiveness for the repentant they can still be saved if they are alive.  Also I believe even pagans are able to live righteous. What makes some come to the light? Jesus said everyone who practices the truth comes to the light that his deeds are shown to be clearly done in God. Therefore that which is normally got by baptism I believe for those mentioned people God may give the Holy Spirit to them as He did to cornelius and his friends or atleast some workings of the Holy Spirit to understand so they may do until they have knowledge that they must become orthodox by which the Holy Spirit will leave them if they do not become so because they now know God's will but I think God will not tell them until it is the right time without deceiving them(remember no one can say Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit) to show He can accept them but they may still need to be baptised as they also did. Most protestants think they need to be baptised so they practice it but they don't think we truly have kept the faith and understand Jesus words. Therefore God gives grace to people that they may become orthodox




  • edited July 6
    I believe Protestants who are ignorant they need to be orthodox have the Holy Spirit because no one came to them until they do but because of the lack of our witnessing with power we lose reward but they are saved and have the same reward as us which is less than what we would have been.
    I believe the Holy Spirit was restricted then to those in the church but it is different now because not everyone finds a Paul to teach them the way and even give them a gift of speaking in tongues

    Acts 19:1-7
    1 And it happened, while Apollos was at Corinth, that Paul, having passed through the upper regions, came to Ephesus. And finding some disciples 2 he said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?”So they said to him, “We have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.” 3 And he said to them, “Into what then were you baptized?” So they said, “Into John’s baptism.” 4 Then Paul said, “John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.” 5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied. 7 Now the men were about twelve in all.
  • edited July 7
    I have acted like I care to learn about the Catholic Church to maybe become one on the Christian forum for all Christians people here may not want to hear of. I do but I'd like to explain my reason. It is not because I don't believe Protestants are Christian
    It's that I believe joining the true church when you absolutely know it is the truth promotes unity if you have specifically known it is the truth having been witnessed with power but others may not been witnessed with power yet not for their fault but no one would come to them even if they repent while they may come to me if I repent so they lose nothing. However I find no lack in the coptic church but I could still be wrong. I know only Jesus is the Son of God and God and I can find life in relationship with Him now. I just want to be in the fullness
    Also I can not know if God has not witnessed with power to everyone and they have rejected it. However I believe God witnesses to everyone or convicts everyone about jesus only but they only know who He is if they want to know for Jesus said I will draw all men to Me. But those who don't want to believe in God by which I mean judgement even though they have been convinced God allows them to deceive themselves
  • Also Mike that protestants have a moral veiw of the Grace of God, while we receive wisdom through the myseries of God.
    The moral view maybe good for character and building you up to be righteous and so forth, but it is not deep enough and that is why they try to explain the myseries according to morality.
    It is better to seek the myseries by the wisdom given to the Holy Fathers inspirations.
  • I agree but I still believe what I wrote
  • edited July 17
    Beware thinking you can live a happy life after adultery. None who go to her regain the path of life here and even repenting though possible I believe, many good works perhaps can not be done if someone thinks one witness is gone or he thinks that so is not courageous and repentance may be difficult at first and many may give up and are comfortable in their sin
    Especially not those who should know better

    However it seems harsh david the king lived a difficult life after sin but he still got saved. I'm not saying I know all life will be bad and there is no reason to be joyful for those who are forgiven

    I think it is possible many people who sinned perished in their sin and died without thinking of repentance not expecting death

    Proverbs 6:20-35
    My son, keep your father's command,
    And do not forsake the law of your mother.
    Bind them continually upon your heart;
    Tie them around your neck.
    When you roam, they will lead you;
    When you sleep, they will keep you;
    And when you awake, they will speak with you.
    For the commandment is a lamp,
    And the law a light;
    Reproofs of instruction are the way of life,
    To keep you from the evil woman,
    From the flattering tongue of a seductress.
    Do not lust after her beauty in your heart,
    Nor let her allure you with her eyelids.
    For by means of a harlot
    A man is reduced to a crust of bread;
    And an adulteress will prey upon his precious life.
    Can a man take fire to his bosom,
    And his clothes not be burned?
    Can one walk on hot coals,
    And his feet not be seared?
    So is he who goes in to his neighbor's wife;
    Whoever touches her shall not be innocent.
    People do not despise a thief
    If he steals to satisfy himself when he is starving.
    Yet when he is found, he must restore sevenfold;
    He may have to give up all the substance of his house.
    Whoever commits adultery with a woman lacks understanding;
    He who does so destroys his own soul.
    Wounds and dishonor he will get,
    And his reproach will not be wiped away.
    For jealousy is a husband's fury;
    Therefore he will not spare in the day of vengeance.
    He will accept no recompense,
    Nor will he be appeased though you give many gifts.

  • I do not mean to pressure the church to change its doctrine to keep the flock. I just think it is important to strive for perfection when they know it is true. Those who have a problem with the church on this can convert to Eastern Orthodox
  • edited July 18
    It may be wrong to say an adulterer will or can never be happy in this life. Those who are forgiven can be happy but many consequences remain atleast on earth that cause pain and there is more to be said but not to know now or explain
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