On Communion and Protestants

edited January 19 in Faith Issues
The protestants understand scripture differently. They confess to each other, they get baptised and they might believe eating His body and blood refers to comprehending the love of Jesus whose flesh was torn and blood spilled and letting that change your life which is why Jesus said to remember Him till He comes. Therefore no one ought to take communion if he is living in sin as a lifestyle since how can one commemorate His death knowing he would be responsible for His death. But we know they are not right as in the book of acts we saw it was a practice done at certain times and Jesus said it was His body not a symbol and that only by taking that ordinance are we the body of Christ.

1 Corinthians 10
14 Therefore, my beloved, flee from idolatry. 15 I speak as to wise men; judge for yourselves what I say. 16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? 17 For we, though many, are one bread and one body; for we all partake of that one bread.
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Comments

  • edited January 19
    Jesus said without eating His flesh and drinking His blood we have no life in us
    The church teaches communion is a great help against sin
    This seems to mean a Protestant would have less chance to go to heaven or less chance for reward but I will rebutt it and prove one does not have to have this position as orthodox
    I think it is the rule but God does not have to insist on the sacraments if someone circumstance is different God judges us individually
    I believe what Jesus means about having no life is Protestants can not do the things which bring life to them now but they can live perfectly holy lives they can not produce fruit on the same scale to testify salvation life upon death but they can still produce all the fruit on a lesser scale
    for them to be worthy of heaven but not now. Orthodox produce more than necessary to have no shame but Protestants produce enough to have no shame because the orthodox excess is due to extra grace. So why should orthodox have communion supposing they could be saved as Protestant ? An orthodox may not produce excess fruit to be worthy of life upon death but he can bear enough fruit to be worthy of life one day but I believe God specially chooses orthodox to go to heaven upon death even if he deserves to be as Protestants to not go straight to Him but I should rather say an orthodoxy who does not bear as much fruit he only loses the ability to witness to life but he is not worthy of death or he could be among those who are saved with less reward just as some Protestants will have less reward
    An orthodox should have communion because he does to heaven faster and enjoys the gifts of God and if he leaves the church while not at peace with others in wish to harm them if that is possible it does not seem good. And I don't know what else to say about that

    Perhaps they are also instructed in the world to come and given the body and blood which some will gladly take because they always willed to take it but they felt like they are dishonoring their parents

    I insist God pours out His Spirit or gives the same ability to have reward on all believers the same and that is what I hold and am comfortable holding because I am worried Jesus won't appear to every Protestant and be able to convince them they are accepted even if He gives them the power of the Holy Spirit and answers their prayers
    I insist also God gives same grace through pastors

    Also otherwise I think Protestants have reason to think orthodox are their enemies

    A priest is necessary in our church to guide us to repentance as Paul said they watch out for our souls as those who must give account therefore if Protestants do not have pastors they are making it harder for their salvation
  • If I get an infection, and I have no access to antibiotics, and I did not even know about antibiotics, and the antibiotics are needed to save my life, will I die or live?

    If Christ said that unless I eat His body and drink His blood I have no life in Him, then I better take that seriously.

    I don't speculate on how Protestants have no life in them. I believe it, but my belief in it does not necessarily make me hate Protestants. It makes me want to share the gospel to them, to bring them to the church. They need the antibiotics whether they knew about antibiotics or not.

    And neither should we speculate about heaven or hell. Let God be the judge. But you and I know the truth now, and the truth is there is no salvation in Protestantism. Some rootless plants may still produce fruit, but it has no true life, because it had no roots. A tree that has roots that does not produce fruit is cursed by Christ. Either way, salvation must be through the Orthodox Church, and THEN you may consider fruits.

    If any Protestant is offended by these words I remind them with the words of Christ "no one comes to the Father except through Me." They agree there is no salvation in Buddhism, Judaism, etc. but there are "good" Buddhists "producing fruit". But there's still no life there. They believe that, so why doesn't the same level of exclusivity extend to the Church? "The gates of Hades shall not prevail against the Church" Christ promised. Therefore, if Christ promised this, there no need to speculate on Protestants. They're good people, but they have no life in them.
  • Thanks minasoliman for your reply however I get confused by orthodox who think like you. In one breath you say we don't have a heaven and hell to put people through and say we can not know for sure where they go and in another breath you teach you are sure there is no chance for them to be saved
  • edited January 20
    Salvation is not from what we do dear Mike. Salvation is from what Christ does for us and in us. And so Christ established the Church and the sacraments for us and in us. That's where salvation is.

    If Christ decides as judge to save others outside what He established for us, that's His business, not mine. My duty is to be obedient to what Christ established for us. If He told me there is no life outside one true baptism (John 3:5) and one true Eucharist (John 6:53), and the Church is the foundation of all truth (1 Timothy 3:15), from which the gates of Hades shall not prevail against (Matthew 16:18), then who am I to disobey?

    The question is dear Mike, when people start to speculate what happens to those who are not in the Orthodox Church, they are simply looking for an excuse for not doing enough to bring people into the Orthodox Church. True love of the other is to put yourself at the disposal of the other so that they may enter the Church through your love to them. True love does not mean you say, "oh you're okay, I'm Christian you're Christian, Christ will judge the heart." No habibi. That's a distortion of Christ's teachings. We need to take seriously when Christ teaches that there is only One Church, and if so, if we are privileged that we are in that Church, let us do the responsible thing and try to bring people into the Church. Our lack of action will bring judgment to us. Our liberality and speculation on heretical Christians will also bring judgment on us.

    Be simple, my brother! Don't complicate things in your head. Be like the simple child. If Christ said it, so be it and obey it!
  • edited January 20
    I will consider it since I have to follow the best I know but if I learn more truth from Christ who said we have to go to Him that is have a relationship and to know the truth not just search the scripture and try to interpret it ourselves thinking we have eternal life in it. But as far as I see this is what Christ seems to have taught I will teach Jesus only let us know salvation is in the church
    But as pope Shenouda said in 1974 he seems to think the Holy Spirit accepts them probably because that's what he sees is fair and we can sometimes think through the Holy Spirit when we pray but we can not say we know that when we consider Jesus words

    Pope Shenouda said in 1974
    "The whole Christian world is anxious to see the Church unite. Christian people - being fed up with divisions and dispersion - are pushing their Church leaders to do something about Church Unity and I am sure that the Holy Spirit is inspiring us. Christian Unity will be a magnificent universal achievement for generations to come. Christian Unity is God's will, so there shall be one flock and one Shepherd (John 10:16). Christian Unity is essential for Faith and Evangelism. The mere existence of so many Christian divisions and fractions is the greatest stumbling block to the world. How can they believe while truth appears to be lost amidst controversy and contradiction? In our ecumenical meetings, we should talk about actual beliefs regardless of what happened in the past. We must avoid complex and vague expressions. In spite of all the problems that might arise about History, Rites, Ecumenical Councils and so on we shall achieve good results with Love, Good Spirit and Determination. We shall achieve this together. It is God's will.
  • edited January 20
    http://i66.tinypic.com/5f41v6.jpg

    I just saw this from an Eastern Orthodox source and thought that they want to confirm that we should not go about condemning Protestantism until we can present the beauty of orthodoxy through our life like many knew God was with St Anthony. However Paul says to Timothy preach the word in season and out of season. We should try to be in season but we can do it out of season but maybe Paul means we can only preach out of season in the church and as for evangelising we should only do it in groups or one other person. But I think we can preach all the time of we have good intention and are respectful despite our lack of something otherwise people will always say or think I am not obliged to listen to you because you are so and so
    But my dad says we should only preach if we have the talent which is not just knowing the truth but how to present in a good way but he says I can preach in groups
    I don't think we should preach to Protestants or Catholics only befriend them and let them ask if they ever want to learn as pope Shenouda says disunity hurts evangelisation

  • edited January 21
    Had some extra thoughts but I think I could have made them up and should look after people for them not to have no hope for their family. Do you want me to post the long thoughts ? I could be pouring foolish arguments and expose myself
    It may not have content so bad but I'm not sure
  • edited January 21
    Repost
  • edited January 21
    Repost
  • Habibi, slow down. No where have I said they are going to hell or that I am judging anyone as a vile sinner. I am simply saying that the Orthodox Church is the only Church where the pillar of truth lies, and where the pillar of truth is is where true life is. Any other church simply has no life in them.

    But as for me, I am the worst of sinners, and I acknowledge there's a chance that other Christians have a better shot in heaven than me. But the True Church is not a triumphalist or judgmental statement, anymore than saying that Buddhists or Hindus have no truth in them either.
  • I appreciate your honest opinion. However I have to get round to form my opinion
  • I want to say Jesus said He is the bread of life not His body. This is what protestants believe. But I believe we consume Him when we eat His body.
  • edited January 22
    This is not my opinion. This is the teachings of the Bible and of Christ. Christ broke bread and said "take eat, this is my Body." He also said "unless you eat of the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood you have no life in you" (John 6). So yes He is the bread of life, and He gave us His body in the form of bread

    If I had a choice to form my own opinions on these questions, I wouldn't even be a Christian.

    The son of obedience will receive blessings
  • We can't discuss truth on forums or the moderators may ban me or delete my posts. If I am given permission I will continue. Our faults must be corrected privately because of the stumbling block of words said hastily
  • I have decided to obey God's will and not speculate on Protestants but trust in Him to care for them. Jesus said unless we forsake all we have we can not be His disciple and a prophet has no honor except in his house and among his own relatives.
    People have to follow what they think is true and willing to leave all for the truth. We are not supposed to let our worry for others stop us from obeying all of christ will but just as non Christians have to leave all for Christ so do Protestants if they have found the truth
    One can even claim to be a orthodox brethren but he places stumbling blocks for those who want to be fully dedicated to God. So Paul said he encountered false brethren in following Jesus. It is good that our loved ones follow us and we increase their chances if they are alive if we are good disciples as Jesus said if you keep My word you will ask what you desire and it will be done. Maybe this applies even to just believing and converting since they accepted His word and not just to being a good disciple if they ever could be saved they would believe and God will reveal Himself to them but they may deny God visiting them and wish to persecute you so you don't go to heaven but God is worthy of our love no matter what and we have to choose Him above all
    and we need not worry that they have not got their chance since Jesus said there is nothing covered that will not be revealed so we will agree with His judgements. Whatever concerns us concerns Him. He alone cares for our happiness. They would be worthy of more chances if they don't persecute their children and don't commit suicide but this depends on the Christian being a good disciple of Jesus but I don't think even any suicide should deceive us since we can not know that God has not shown Him it is wrong and leads to death and given them fair chance though more chances may be possible

    I think like the people in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus who wanted to help their loved ones so does God or He does not because of His knowledge. They grow in that knowledge

    About threat of suicide from a parent I do not know what we should think about that but God may be giving them their chance. What do you people and mina think one should do.

    I suppose it is okay to say I have found the truth and wish to follow it but I am concerned for your well being and will not convert but after you die I might follow the truth which is also good for your soul to have less punishment even if you do not see it. Since they do not see it it is best maybe to give into their wishes and say you will stay non Christian .... Of course I don't think one should do so but what should one do ?

    I know a orthodox must not leave orthodoxy

    As I said above we should believe perhaps God visits them but they don't want you to know so you don't follow Jesus

    One Protestant said the below

    "To be a disciple of the Lord Jesus, one must forsake all. This is the unmistakable meaning of the words of the Savior. No matter how much we might object to such an “extreme” demand, no matter how much we might rebel against such an “impossible” and “unwise” policy, the fact remains that this is the Word of the Lord, and He means what He says."
  • edited January 28


    People have to follow what they think is true and willing to leave all for the truth. We are not supposed to let our worry for others stop us from obeying all of christ will but just as non Christians have to leave all for Christ so do Protestants if they have found the truth

    That's not to say God can not justly choose to accept them without being in the church since they desire the truth and choose His commandments by preferring the light but the only reason they don't convert is because they are worried it does not please Jesus but I don't have to preach I know God accepts them but I trust God will take care of them by either revealing Himself to them or by the assurance of the Spirit and His work in their life or some other way and He will save them if He wants
  • I'm sorry but I have to take a turn back to what I think is the truth. Protestants need to be accepted and told to strive hard for their salvation. We must not put obstacle in their striving. If God wants them to be orthodox He will let them know but we must not put obstacle in them turning to God.
  • edited January 31
    Still thinking about this issue. Awaiting reply but take your time or do not feel rushed
  • We don't follow the same life because our teachings have come by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit to the church Fathers and the starting of the church by Jesus Christ Himself to the apostles (His bride) and that this road and journey was set way before any protestant way of establishmental.
    An example of difference is about sin.
    Sin is not only disobeying the commandments, but also about missing the target or goal. When we practice the sacrament of confession, we get advice from abouna that is uniquely ours because it has its roots in the teachings of the church Fathers. Not only that, but as communion is a unity, so are we unified with Christ first and foremost, with the Saints, the church Fathers and the church of this generation and past.
    The communion as unity is oneness in God in which we journey by His teachings given to us by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit keeps our path with discipline through what we have being taught.

    Do you know protestant means protest?
    They do it for independence. Independence is about doing it your own way and hence, different interpretation and often one that has alot to do with this world ( along way from humbleness and the inner searching that the Holy Spirit directs you) and more inclined with outward display ie guitars and bands, jibberish talk because of speaking in tongues and so on.

    No, unity is salvation for the bride in the myseries of God through Christ's word, given or delivered to its church by the Holy Spirit.

    Jesus came back for forty days and taught the apostles about His church and our apostle Saint Mark passed on those teachings to the next Pope until today. But the protestants have lost that apostleship and I pray for their unity with the first established church.




  • edited February 1
    Thanks for your reply. I have something to say which is that the foolishness of God is greater than the wisdom of men. As foolish as it seems to preach you need to be orthodox anyone honest will know it is the truth if it is as st Augustine said the truth is like a lion it will defend itself
  • edited February 1
    “Make no mistake brethren; the corrupters of families will not inherit the kingdom of God. If, then, those who are dead who do these things according to the flesh, how much worse if, with bad doctrine, one should corrupt the faith of God for which Jesus Christ was crucified. Such a man, for becoming contaminated, will depart into unquenchable fire; and will anyone who listens to him.” (St Ignatius Letter to the Ephesians, Ch. 16)

    I must not corrupt the faith by preaching my hope as the truthful fact that God accepts Protestants and Catholics. But I think Catholics may stand a better chance because they are apostolic but my thoughts tell me what if they lose their apostolic blessing from heresy even if they are not heretics but they got it from a heretic pope. If their pope repents only every bishop who repents that they bless have the right to be apostolic and to loose and bind or do they need to be received into the Oriental orthodox church of which the Coptic church is part to restore its ancient apostolic right to be its own church ? In any case if you see my longer post in the link at the bottom I believe those outside the church who want to join but do not for fear of not honouring their parents and therefore not doing Jesus will may not be schismatic refusing the bishop who God makes represents Him and the apostles but I do not know
    Everyone who is convinced by my teaching of presenting my hope as facts I fear will be deceived into unquenchable fire according to Ignatius. We may need to join the church.

    We attack those who defend orthodoxy because we think they need to accept Protestants even though the Lord did not make such a clear statement that they are saved but He said the apostles have authority to loose and bind, the gates of hades only can not prevail against those in the church, without communion we have no life in us and without baptism we can not enter the kingdom of God and without laying of hands we can not have the Holy Spirit. Still God might save Protestants and give them the Holy Spirit but we can not preach that with certainty. Each case is up to Him but we can not assume any are excused though we do not know any one fate because some babies have never been baptised and we can not say they will not enter the kingdom for God if that was to be taken with no exceptions also God said the father guilt shall not pass to the son. The soul which sins shall die. And we must not overburden people who did not baptise their children who died of sickness if they did so unknowingly for who would be glad to follow such a God so it is also written judge not that you be not judged. We can't take one bible verse to base doctrine on as the Protestants do. If we judge people who did not baptise their children who died from a sickness we burden them with something to heavy to bear

    Jesus said woe to you when all men speak well of you for so did their fathers to the false prophets. And that if the world hates you you know it hated Me before it hated you and have to forsake loyalties to men if it is before God to be His disciple. I admit not everyone speaks good about someone who preaches things like universal salvation but still no one persecutes them

    More quotes by Ignatius and bible verse
    http://discoveringtruth45.blogspot.com.au/2017/02/raw-thoughts-and-exploring-truth.html?m=1
  • edited February 1
    Today word from pope Shenouda. This is not what pope Shenouda said but what I say should we be worried that Jesus words not everyone who says to Me Lord Lord shall enter the kingdom applies to those inside the church as Jesus said the sons of the kingdom shall be thrown into outer darkness. Is it therefore God job to convert Protestants ? But I don't think so since Jesus judged the servant who buried his talent who gave the excuse You should be saving people. If a priest says I have a savior complex but learned it is wrong if it was me who was that priest I believe that is just an excuse for wanting to be lazy
    seeking praise for ones faith therefore peddling the word of God knowing I am probably guilty of that rather than making sure to save others and therefore being tireless servants unless I am afflicted with trolls. Truly it is not encouraging when there are few serving God even Elijah was discouraged but God showed there are enough left of God servants to not overburden him but he did not exempt him from his mission. Seeking others to do your job and I speak for myself just because there are more servants will be condemned

    “Do not assume that those who were lost were those who drifted
    from the Church; there were those who were lost inside the
    Church. The younger prodigal son was lost when he was
    far from the house of his father, and the elder prodigal
    son was lost whilst he was inside the Church”

    + Pope Shenouda +

    [ From ‘Let God be Your Aim’ ]


  • But the prodigal son returned to the church so I have my answer
  • Protestants deny that the bread and wine turn into the body and blood of the Lord (with the exception of Anglo Catholics). As such, they cannot be allowed to recieve holy communion in any apostolic church, for one must believe that the bread and wine become the body and blood to recieve communion
  • And yet the Lutherans took communion from a Roman Catholic priest at the Vatican the other day:

    https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/lutherans-receive-communion-at-vatican-after-meeting-with-pope-report

    Sounds like Catholics are softening to Protestants and its heresies
  • edited February 4
    I am sorry but it is my duty to preserve Christian unity. There are many people who will not know Christ we can not demonise Protestants. I do not judge orthodox who can not do this but I can not be a good rigid orthodox. One can be saved but that does not mean the negative effects would be removed by one who is not a good orthodox such as making a non orthodox leave Christianity or not walk much as Christian

    We don't know who St Ignatius was dealing with and if it is relevant now since those schismatics may have tended to be those who denied the divinity of Christ or tried to fight the work of the church so people don't benefit like having confession but purposely not being good guides
  • edited February 4
    If I know the truth lies with Orthodoxy, I should try everything in my power to convert Protestants and Catholics, not just the non-Christians.

    Truth does not allow that you keep it from those you love. And you will gain much more respect of your position when you "speak the Truth with love" to others, rather than shy away from the fullness of Truth in Orthodoxy to some people.
  • edited February 4
    If that is the path I need to take if it is the truth I believe I need to grow in the knowledge of orthodoxy first so I am not ashamed to share it as Jesus said lest others see me begin to build and mock and that He said those who are planted on the good soil have deep roots in the word and overcome all tribulation
  • Well, there are contemporary "Saints" in the Eastern Orthdox church who follow your same reasoning Mina! They want to speak the "truth with love" for us (among non-Chalcidonian Orthodox churches). Catholics do the same! And all seem to cite good reasons for their exclusivity! I wish it is that simple. Now to make things more complicated, Lutherans (and Anglicans) believe like the Orthdox in transsubstituation like us means the wine and bread becomes literally the body and blood of Christ
  • edited February 9
    That's fine. Eastern Orthodox have good intentions. If I was a Copt living in the early 1900s, I also probably wouldn't call Eastern Orthodox "Orthodox". Only after seeing that they have believed in the same faith as we do do I now graciously consider them Orthodox, even if many of them stubbornly do not think the same of my church, because I still have sympathy and empathy to their ways of thinking.

    Am I any better than these saints in their holiness and virtues? Did I reach their level of asceticism? I am like a loving son to a father who may see my father not understand many things in history or deep theology, but he is a far greater theologian than me in his simplicity and prayer life. So these saints who condemn us as "Monophysite" still require some respect and understanding.

    I can't say the same for Catholics and Protestants. They have pious people, but we simply do not share the same faith with them. They're not Orthodox...therefore...

    God bless you Basem
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