Communion hymn after Pentecost

St. Pachom

Can Asomen be chanted on Adam and Batos days after Pentecost? If so, til when? Feast of the apostles? Thank you.

tenoosht

Yes, Asomen can be chanted during the Distribution on Pentecost, and every day during the Apostles Fast (including the Feast of the Apostles)

[Deleted User]

Yeah, But Notice: in Pentecost, Psalm 150 isn't chanted at the tune of Asomen, Psalm 150 is chanted at the Joyful Tune, and after Penetcost through Apostles Fast, Psalm 150 is chanted in Annual Tune.
Asomen is a separete hymn.

St. Pachom

Tenoosht, thank you.

Meensasamy, I know that asomen is separate.

alam ala weshak

from what i know and what we do at my church is that we dont say asomen during the feast of the apostles. i dont really know why 

does anyone know why that might be the case ??

ophadece

Ekhrestos anesty
@alamalaweshak,
That's the right practice. Aswmen shouldn't be said on the day of the feast of the apostles going back to the regular annual rites wholly
Oujai

minatasgeel

@alam ala weshak and @ophadece:

that is incorrect. at that time the rite is ALREADY annual. The distribution of the feast is the same as the fast except for the madiha which i guess there is one for the feast.

this is according to Anba Mettaous rites book, page 102 in my version. 

ophadece

@minatasgeel,

I guess Anba Mattaos is not totally right here. In fact, it is a practice spread in many (if not all) churches, aswman being sung on the feast day itself. I guess pretty much like aswman starting on the Pentecost feast, Lenten psalm 150 on the day preceding Lent. In nahdet elkanayes, it is said that ondoc, nerowmi, and ntodan da, could be said during the fast, and on the feast day (within the Liturgy proper). I hope that makes sense. 

Oujai

minatasgeel

hmmmmm. 'usual practice' doesn't always bypass a bishops word....not to me. Actually, Albair agrees with Anba Mettaous too. 

ophadece

Ekhrestos anesty

@minatasgeel

I really don't know... one of the grey areas if you like. Personally, I don't think it should be sung, but I may be very wrong...

Oujai

minatasgeel

It's not about me or you being right or wrong. It's what the Churches says to do. Besara7a, i don't see why can't we say it on the feast. 

drewhalim

For the sake of clarity when you say Bishop Mettaous' book which book are you talking about exactly? Is it the book titled "Daleel altoukos alkaneesa ala madar alsana altoutia"? If so it is worth noting that the book was actually written by two monks from the monastery Frs Zakaria and Boutros and it cleaely says revised by Bishop Mettaous. Bishop Mettaous has written introductions to many books and it is not uncommon to find conflicting points between them.

minatasgeel

@drehalim. That is the book that I am talkinga bout and you are fully correct about what you said. 

drewhalim

Now back to the question I have heard many times that Asomen is for Pentecost and the Apostles fast but not to be said on the feast. Nobody and I mean absolutely nobody can give a logical explanation. This practice is definitely not followed by the majority of cantors in Cairo and many chant Asomen on the Feasts of Sts Peter & Paul. Notice that I say the Feasts of Sts Peter & Paul as there is no feast of the Apostles it simply does not exist. The Fast of the Apostles to me has quite a few issues with it from the simple fact that it terminates with a feast of a select few and not all the Apostles to the fact that throughout the fast you have a hymn such as Asomen chanted which is also supposedly chanted on Pentecost. I have never seen a hymn chanted on a major Lordly Feast and a fast for Saints. Still these are just some of my thoughts ... although shared by many when it comes to the Apostles fast which seems to be the most problematic fast in the Coptic Church with the majority of people do not take it seriously.

ophadece

Ekhrestos anesty,

@drewhalim,

I guess, without an authoritative answer given, that it follows the fact that you start the rites of one ceremonial at the end of another. So aswman in that sense is starting at the ending of the holy fifties, pretty much like starting Lenten tunes on the day before Lent. 

As for people not taking it seriously, this is a matter for God to judge, but for me, this fast is actually one of the most important during the year as we declare our fellowship to those saints. 

Oujai

minatasgeel

So there are a couple of things that I want to comment on here.

So the Church was affected greatly by St. Peter and St Paul and consider them the head of the disciples and the apostles. We are slowly changing texts to get away from that thought but that maybe one reason the apostles feast is really their feast.

As for the hymns of feasts being said in other locations, i don't think that is a restirction to be concerned with. Tigalili-a is said during kiahk, lent and the feast of entry to Egypt. Nikhora is said for the wedding of Cana of Galilee and all weddings, and the tune is actually like meghalo. Ooran enshosho is a hymn of John the baptist that we actually say on other feasts of john the baptist and not only on theophany. Eeparthenos is a nativity hymn but we can say it for weddings...i may think of others if i get sometime off of work :-)

As for the fast to the people, I think people just don't like it. It is actually THE ONLY fast that was mentioned in the Bible:

Luke 5:35

But the days will come when the bridegroom will be taken away from them; then they will fast in those days."

ophadece

Ekhrestos anesty,

To add to what @minatasgeel has said; omonoganais is said in sad tune, and in enthronement of bishops and popes too. 

Oujai

minatasgeel

Side comment, i don't feel like omonogenis is a 'sad tune'...i feel it's one of those hymns that you can feel great reverence in hazzat, ornaments, and words.   

ophadece

Ekhrestos anesty

@minatasgeel

It all depends on the way you perform the hymn. You can make it sound "just a little" sadder than in another "a little more" joyful occasion. 

Oujai

drewhalim

I could provide numerous answers to the above but I will restrict myself. However I will say that the coptic church no longer considers Sts Peter & Paul as the "head" of the Apostles and the Synod even changed this line in the fraction prayer many years ago from the head of the apostles to the apostles.

A discussion on the music of hymns is a completely different topic as it is based a lot on personal opinion and teaching. Some people will acknowledge a hymn as being sad because they have been taught to think like that. I for example see Omonogenis as a declaration of faith with a unique tune but I do not consider it sad especially when you have sections appear in other hymns.

As far chanting lenten hymns the day before lent I know this is the teaching that most follow but it is still illogical. Firstly the fact is you are not fasting so why behave like we are through our hymns? Secondly traditionally the lenten tune did not even start on the first day of preparation week but rather the following Monday on the first day of the Holy 40 days.

Again there is still no real explanation as to why Asomen cannot be said on the feast of Sts Peter and Paul which is unfortunately why many ignore this teaching.

As a side point we must be careful when using the Bridegroom verse and fasting as I know for fact of a bishop in Egypt who insists the congregation of his diocese fasts Wednesday and Friday after Ascension (not Pentecost) while teaching that the Bridegroom has been taken away.

ophadece

Ekhrestos anesty
@drewhalim
Again interesting points and I hope we really find logical answers as you say.. as for fasting between ascension and Pentecost this is an innovation for lack of a better word. Totally incorrect in my opinion. Does the same bishop or any other encourage people to stop fasting on Lazarus Saturday? Jesus had ended His fast by then!
Oujai