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Caji, I hope you don't think I'm picking on you. Your response makes sense to someone who accepts scripture. Logically, it is irrelevant at best. K-man and others like him are not going to find the answers to their doubts only from the Bible. Let me explain it this way, you said [quote author=caji link=topic=13328.msg155870#msg155870 date=1337718956]You will never understand God or His Creation unless you read what He has given you, with an open mind.
If anything, this book opened my eyes to how much we do not know. Have you ever questioned science before? <<< As illogical as it gets, did you ever ask yourself that maybe the stuff that science believes is false. A poor example is the Ptolemy system (Geocentric universe); 800 years ago almost everybody, including science, believed in a geocentric universe. What if we are doing this now? and 800 years from now some two random people would be discussing how stupid evolution is (just an example)?
You have to question science because the scientists think they have a monopoly on the interpretation of evidence. Geologists will say "Each layer of earth is a time period". Really? Prove it. Well, the fact is, it is an interpretation OF the data, not an actual fact. There is, quite literally, no reliable or accurate method of dating in existence today. This idea that each layer is a time period was developed by Charles Lyell and this is taught to us as fact, and we do not question it. However, it is not fact, it is an interpretation that has become sort of a mantra. We do not know the age of the earth, it could be billions or trillions and perhaps it could be thousands, who knows! Not us!
The problem is that scientists now approach things with a preconceived notion that evolution, darwinian evolution in particular, is a proven fact. Then they criticize Christians for doing this same thing, as if we are not allowed to, only darwinian evolutionists can. Science proves nothing except that man is flawed and biased. (in terms of if Christianity is true or not)
Had you studied Christianity as much as you have science, I am positive you would not say something as absurd as "it just has books" which are "not evidence based". It is as silly as posting "Complete Loss of Faith". The fact that you even posted that suggests that either you do not have a complete loss of faith or you are looking for a fight.
As I said concerning dating methods, there are, by scientists own admission, no accurate or reliable method of dating.
What progress has been made in geology? Most scientists reply "we can predict that we will find certain fossils in certain layers thereby proving evolution. The method of determining this is circular reasoning, how do we know what layer the fossil is in is exactly how we determine the age of the fossil. So, if you find a trilobite, then you are in the Cambrian/Pre-cambrian, how do you know it is that time period? Because you found that fossil there. So it proves absolutely nothing. Especially since there is a growing number of scientists that believe in punctuated equilibrium to explain the sudden appearance of complex fossils with no antecendants.
Geologists also state that erosion happens over long periods of time, yet, erosion can happen in a short period of time given, say, enough water. Fact is, the geologic column is not evidence for evolution and geology certainly is not proof.
It is IMPOSSIBLE to create a river valley, for instance, without also creating the history of that river valley. It is absolutely IMPOSSIBLE for it to be otherwise. It is impossible to create the stars in the sky without creating the history of millions of years of travel of photons. It is IMPOSSIBLE to create even a tree without also creating the history of that tree, to create the mulch that lies on the floor of the created forest without creating the history of that mulch.
Scientists are entirely unable to say whether God created the world 10,000 years ago as a mature system, or kicked it off in a big bang.
God created all. God gives us knowledge and we use it to disprove His existence.
I have yet to see a doctor heal his patient through prayer.
K-man you should read H. H. Pope Shenouda III's books. The one on Diabolical wars could be of great interest to you. Read the books of the holy orthodox fathers.....first seek ye the kingdom of heaven then all things will follow after. Don't lose your great reward, your beautiful crown
He does, but does not. He is trying so hard to be an biased that he does not compare the evidence with the bible as much. You would have to do your own research on this.[quote author=K-man link=topic=13328.msg155897#msg155897 date=1337748411][quote author=Copticandproud link=topic=13328.msg155894#msg155894 date=1337743942]If anything, this book opened my eyes to how much we do not know. Have you ever questioned science before? <<< As illogical as it gets, did you ever ask yourself that maybe the stuff that science believes is false. A poor example is the Ptolemy system (Geocentric universe); 800 years ago almost everybody, including science, believed in a geocentric universe. What if we are doing this now? and 800 years from now some two random people would be discussing how stupid evolution is (just an example)?
By questioning science, I did not mean the "questioning" we do at school. Back to the geocentric example, Brahe was a great scientist and he had one of the greatest astronomical libraries in his time, yet he still believe in a geocentric universe. Kepler came after him and used the same library and concluded that it is a heliocentric universe with elliptical orbits. You see my point? Two people with the same data can conclude two different things and the both believed that they are right...
My point is, from the example and all, how do you know a theory that we build on is not completely wrong? People believed in a geocentric universe and built many theories on it, yet it was wrong. They all observed the same thing that Copernicus observed, yet the observed a geocentric universe. You see my point?
All what I am saying is: Science is biased and close minded. We can not trust it, nor it is illusions of theory testing.
Your very existence depends on God. He is our life. What gives life to the world? What gives life to man? It is His breath that formed us. How else could we have come into existence, when we were not?
The rationalist approach you are taking to learning about God may be a vicious cycle that never leads to answers.
As St. Andrew was preaching to the roman governor (?) he was telling him about the Eucharist. The governor obviously thought it was nonsense, how can you eat someone and he still live eternally?! St. Andrew repeatedly told him that he must believe to understand and that if he did not believe he would never understand. This is how the apostles preached. This is how God reveals Himself to us. When we show faith, we are rewarded.
I can already anticipate the worries you have in doing this. Perhaps you think that you will feel a false sense of spirituality and never be sure of God's existence.
All we can do is tell God that we believe and ask Him to help our unbelief.
But I know of no person who has been convinced into faith. Faith should be reasonable, but God is beyond investigation, and to begin by proving God seems to me to be starting on the wrong road.Blind Bartimaeus had it right. He neither saw Christ, nor knew him. But he cried out, Jesus, Son of David, have mercy on me. This is always the cry of the one seeking God.
I have a lifetime of reasonable experience that supports my faith, but my faith is a living trust in the God who is here with me always. I do not have faith because someone has proved to me that God exists, but because I have met him.
The people of Samaria were drawn to hope in Christ because of the testimony of the woman's experience of Christ. But when they met him for themselves they said...Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.
If a person does not meet Christ for themselves they cannot have faith, because faith is trust in a person, not accepting certain facts. They must have a sense of need and even a fragile hope. The journey of faith is not unreasonable but it is not intellectual. If a person has no need and no hope they will not easily find Christ.
Also every year in Jerusalem out of the tomb of Jesus on the resurrection the fire that doesn’t burn for 33 minutes. Christ lived for 33 years. Also the fact that the fire that doesn’t burn is tried to be explained by scientist yet they found no answer. If science can’t explain the non burning fire that is in present day and we can observe it.