The Thursday Theotokeia

Remnkemi

Ok. I'm done arguing too. And I see why Fr Peter choose not to argue either. I don't think he should respond again since he already discussed what the Church fathers have said.

joeg

[quote author=imikhail link=topic=12907.msg151981#msg151981 date=1329339991]
The Reconciliation prayer of St Basil,
The litany of the deceased,
The bathing prayer.

Please be so kind as to quote the relevant text that you are referring to with an explanation, so that people fully understand your arguments.

imikhail

[quote author=Amoussa01 link=topic=12907.msg151982#msg151982 date=1329340704]
Imikhail,

You are so very confused my friend. I will let Fr. Peter give his response.


Your assessment ...

By the way, to say that Christ had an immortal human nature is to say He could not die in the flesh which is heresy.

So, you are saying that Christ was under the curse like the rest of us. So what was the role of the Holy Spirit in Incarnation?

The Holy Spirit purified the Virgin's womb so that the flesh that the Son took was in-corrupt like the rest of us.

imikhail

[quote author=JG link=topic=12907.msg151990#msg151990 date=1329344096]
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=12907.msg151981#msg151981 date=1329339991]
The Reconciliation prayer of St Basil,
The litany of the deceased,
The bathing prayer.

Please be so kind as to quote the relevant text that you are referring to with an explanation, so that people fully understand your arguments.


Will do ..

imikhail

[quote author=Remnkemi link=topic=12907.msg151984#msg151984 date=1329341458]
Ok. I'm done arguing too. And I see why Fr Peter choose not to argue either. I don't think he should respond again since he already discussed what the Church fathers have said.


I have not said that the Fathers are wrong. The Fathers death with the original sin not the corruption or in-corruption of the newly born as we have discussed.

joeg

[quote author=imikhail link=topic=12907.msg151894#msg151894 date=1329243529]
[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=12907.msg151893#msg151893 date=1329243055]

Our nature is not corrupt when we are born.


I cannot accept this sentence whatsoever. I am afraid this is not the teaching of our Church.


As Fr. Peter has already pointed out, we are not born with a corrupt nature, but a corruptible nature.

Straight out of On the Incarnation by St. Athanasius:

(5) This, then, was the plight of men. God had not only made them out of
nothing, but had also graciously bestowed on them His own life by the grace of
the Word. Then, turning from eternal things to things corruptible, by counsel of
the devil, they had become the cause of their own corruption in death; for, as I
said before, though they were by nature subject to corruption, the grace of their
union with the Word made them capable of escaping from the natural law,
provided that they retained the beauty of innocence with which they were
created. That is to say, the presence of the Word with them shielded them even
from natural corruption, as also Wisdom says: God created man for
incorruption and as an image of His own eternity; but by envy of the devil
death entered into the world."


(7)Nor does repentance recall
men from what is according to their nature; all that it does is to make them
cease from sinning. Had it been a case of a trespass only, and not of a
subsequent corruption, repentance would have been well enough; but when
once transgression had begun men came under the power of the corruption
proper to their nature and were bereft of the grace which belonged to them as
creatures in the Image of God. No, repentance could not meet the case. What—
or rather Who was it that was needed for such grace and such recall as we
required? Who, save the Word of God Himself, Who also in the beginning had
made all things out of nothing? His part it was, and His alone, both to bring
again the corruptible to incorruption and to maintain for the Father His
consistency of character with all. For He alone, being Word of the Father and
above all, was in consequence both able to recreate all, and worthy to suffer on
behalf of all and to be an ambassador for all with the Father.

Notice the words "subject" and "corruptible" Men were not immediately born with a corrupt nature, but were "subject" to corruption.

Amoussa01

[quote author=imikhail link=topic=12907.msg151991#msg151991 date=1329344235]
[quote author=Amoussa01 link=topic=12907.msg151982#msg151982 date=1329340704]
Imikhail,

You are so very confused my friend. I will let Fr. Peter give his response.


Your assessment ...

By the way, to say that Christ had an immortal human nature is to say He could not die in the flesh which is heresy.

So, you are saying that Christ was under the curse like the rest of us. So what was the role of the Holy Spirit in Incarnation?

The Holy Spirit purified the Virgin's womb so that the flesh that the Son took was in-corrupt like the rest of us.


You are not understanding me. I never said Christ was under the curse. I am saying that He took our curse and destroyed. it.