I remember watching of the popes Q&As and he said there has to be at least one deacon, mainly because of the confession at the end of the liturgy. He also made it pretty clear that women can't lead. I think that only applies to the liturgy. As far as tasbeha, I don't see anything wrong with girls leading tasbeha.
I don't think you get me. My question is what if the Deacons don't know responses, ie: on Sunday when none of the Deacons know 'al el-orban', should we just skip 'al el-orban' or should the girls sing alone?
I never asked if there weren't any Deacons or if both the Deacons and females know the same responses. Lets just assume, for my question, that all the Deacons arrive to church, and females don't lead over Deacons, but the females know more than the Deacons do.
Apparently Jimmy thinks its a stupid question, but I'd really like to know.
As far as I can see there is a difference between the deacons responses to the priest, or in leading the congregation in prayer, and the 'deacons' leading the congregational responses and hymns.
It is expected that there will be a deacon supporting the priest and leading the congregation in prayer. But if none of the 'deacons' are competent to lead the congregation in responding or in hymns then it is, as far as I can see, entirely appropriate for the congregation to lead itself in those parts of the Liturgy which are proper to it if no-one else is capable. I mean for congregational responses not for the deacon leading prayers.
If there are deacons present, then I don't think girls should lead, regardless if the deacon knows the hymns or not. There's a woman who tries doing that in my church, and it gets to the point where she cuts off the deacons. From a deacons perspective, it's pretty offensive. Abouna even told her to stop, and to not cut off the deacons. Therefore, I think the hymn, if not major, should be skipped if the deacon does not know it. If its a more major hymn, then the lead deacon needs to be talked to.
This is an excellent question. I have my opinion but I won't divulge it for personal reasons. I would like to elaborate on the question.
It's a conundrum. The "official" answer is that women should never raise their voice in church, especially when male deacons, laity or priests are present. But if silence is the answer, then the only victim here is the hymnological tradition. Since the male deacons are negligent to learn hymns in general, then sooner or later silence will beget apathy and apathy will lead to abandonment of the hymn (in this case the Offeratory Alleluia).
So the question really asks what is more dispensable, a hymnological tradition or a perceived female participation?
[quote author=Remnkemi link=topic=12807.msg150731#msg150731 date=1326920565] This is an excellent question. I have my opinion but I won't divulge it for personal reasons. I would like to elaborate on the question.
It's a conundrum. The "official" answer is that women should never raise their voice in church, especially when male deacons, laity or priests are present. But if silence is the answer, then the only victim here is the hymnological tradition. Since the male deacons are negligent to learn hymns in general, then sooner or later silence will beget apathy and apathy will lead to abandonment of the hymn (in this case the Offeratory Alleluia).
So the question really asks what is more dispensable, a hymnological tradition or a perceived female participation?
It seems you're the only person who understands my question.
I don't believe that the participation of the female laity in the congregational responses should be considered as females taking the place of males. I don't believe that Orthodoxy generally forbids women to participate as members of the congregation.
How many church rules and tradition has been broken????? It is like a chain reaction. Once one rule is broken, we will have to brake another rule to correct the old one and so on. If the church in the first place ordained Psaltos based on their abilities not based on who their parents are or how old they, we wouldnot have to deal with problems as such... In my opinion church ranks should have NOTHING again NOTHING to do with age. A simple rule is all what we need: If the person is capable of doing the service honestly and as needed then he should be ordained, no matter how old he is. For us to get rid of this problem, we have to tackle the root of the problem.
[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=12807.msg150735#msg150735 date=1326921617] I don't believe that the participation of the female laity in the congregational responses should be considered as females taking the place of males. I don't believe that Orthodoxy generally forbids women to participate as members of the congregation.
Correct. Orthodoxy does not forbid women to participate and it should not be considered as females taking the place of males, but it is considered forbidden. Why? And I know I'm going to sound like a broken record.... Because it is a cultural issue. The Arab culture considers it forbidden. And since Christians in the Middle East fail to differentiate culture from religion, these Christians justify this forbidden status contrary to Orthodoxy.
TITL, My opinion is simple. This is a non-issue. No one will loose their salvation if a girl leads a hymn. Period. We should be offended at sin, which will steal a person of eternal salvation, not who is leading a hymn.
[quote author=Copticandproud link=topic=12807.msg150740#msg150740 date=1326923858] Here is my two cents on the whole issue...
How many church rules and tradition has been broken????? It is like a chain reaction. Once one rule is broken, we will have to brake another rule to correct the old one and so on. If the church in the first place ordained Psaltos based on their abilities not based on who their parents are or how old they, we wouldnot have to deal with problems as such... In my opinion church ranks should have NOTHING again NOTHING to do with age. A simple rule is all what we need: If the person is capable of doing the service honestly and as needed then he should be ordained, no matter how old he is. For us to get rid of this problem, we have to tackle the root of the problem. I agree with what you said on ordination. Many deacons (even oghnostos) don't even know Ek-esmaraout. But to say that no age requirement is going too far. Can you imagine having an 18 year old priest? I think the main problem TITL was talking about is, what if there's no deacons there to lead?
[quote author=peter_saad link=topic=12807.msg150748#msg150748 date=1326928280] Can you imagine having an 18 year old priest? What's wrong with an 18 year old priest? My grandfather was 19. It was socially acceptable 50-100 years ago. It isn't acceptable now because modern requirements Pope Shenouda placed. But there is nothing inherently wrong with a capable 18 or 19 year old leading a congregation to Christ. It is this forbidden mentality that pervades our thinking and results in false justification.
[quote author=peter_saad link=topic=12807.msg150724#msg150724 date=1326918917] I remember watching of the popes Q&As and he said there has to be at least one deacon, mainly because of the confession at the end of the liturgy. He also made it pretty clear that women can't lead. I think that only applies to the liturgy. As far as tasbeha, I don't see anything wrong with girls leading tasbeha.
i think you are missing something...there MUST be a priest to do his duties, a deacon to do his duties, and a congregation member. a deacon's main duties begin from Reading (being an oghnostos) to as far is serving in the sanctuary and even help give the Blood with certain ranks. being an psaltos is something i consider 'modern'......only when people began to not care about hymns that the Church brought the rank into deaconship.
[quote author=peter_saad link=topic=12807.msg150728#msg150728 date=1326920196] If there are deacons present, then I don't think girls should lead, regardless if the deacon knows the hymns or not.
so you want all to suffer for one man's sin of not learning what he needs to know to do his duties as a deacon?!
[quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=12807.msg150755#msg150755 date=1326932148] [quote author=peter_saad link=topic=12807.msg150728#msg150728 date=1326920196] If there are deacons present, then I don't think girls should lead, regardless if the deacon knows the hymns or not.
so you want all to suffer for one man's sin of not learning what he needs to know to do his duties as a deacon?! I said it only applies in minor hymns. (like a communion hymn) if lead deacons don't know what is to be said, then something's wrong
[quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=12807.msg150754#msg150754 date=1326932028] [quote author=peter_saad link=topic=12807.msg150724#msg150724 date=1326918917] I remember watching of the popes Q&As and he said there has to be at least one deacon, mainly because of the confession at the end of the liturgy. He also made it pretty clear that women can't lead. I think that only applies to the liturgy. As far as tasbeha, I don't see anything wrong with girls leading tasbeha.
i think you are missing something...there MUST be a priest to do his duties, a deacon to do his duties, and a congregation member. a deacon's main duties begin from Reading (being an oghnostos) to as far is serving in the sanctuary and even help give the Blood with certain ranks. being an psaltos is something i consider 'modern'......only when people began to not care about hymns that the Church brought the rank into deaconship. Does there really have to be a congregation member. Ive done plenty of liturgies with just abouna and myself.
[quote author=peter_saad link=topic=12807.msg150761#msg150761 date=1326933783] [quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=12807.msg150754#msg150754 date=1326932028] [quote author=peter_saad link=topic=12807.msg150724#msg150724 date=1326918917] I remember watching of the popes Q&As and he said there has to be at least one deacon, mainly because of the confession at the end of the liturgy. He also made it pretty clear that women can't lead. I think that only applies to the liturgy. As far as tasbeha, I don't see anything wrong with girls leading tasbeha.
i think you are missing something...there MUST be a priest to do his duties, a deacon to do his duties, and a congregation member. a deacon's main duties begin from Reading (being an oghnostos) to as far is serving in the sanctuary and even help give the Blood with certain ranks. being an psaltos is something i consider 'modern'......only when people began to not care about hymns that the Church brought the rank into deaconship. Does there really have to be a congregation member. Ive done plenty of liturgies with just abouna and myself.
[quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=12807.msg150754#msg150754 date=1326932028] [quote author=peter_saad link=topic=12807.msg150724#msg150724 date=1326918917] I remember watching of the popes Q&As and he said there has to be at least one deacon, mainly because of the confession at the end of the liturgy. He also made it pretty clear that women can't lead. I think that only applies to the liturgy. As far as tasbeha, I don't see anything wrong with girls leading tasbeha.
i think you are missing something...there MUST be a priest to do his duties, a deacon to do his duties, and a congregation member. a deacon's main duties begin from Reading (being an oghnostos) to as far is serving in the sanctuary and even help give the Blood with certain ranks. being an psaltos is something i consider 'modern'......only when people began to not care about hymns that the Church brought the rank into deaconship.
I could be wrong or maybe the Church of Alexandria as you say has recently changed things but afaik, cantor (psaltos) and reader (anaghnostos) are non-liturgical or non-priestly/altar roles, which is why they are not supposed to wear the badrashil at all. The only priestly or liturgical ranks are sub-deacon, deacon, (archdeacon), priest, bishop. So the role of cantor is a role of the laity and has been for centuries which is why choirs of men and women as I mentioned before are allowed to serve in this ministry and not serve as a sub-deacon's (and higher) role in the altar.
[quote author=Timothym link=topic=12807.msg150766#msg150766 date=1326936305] I could be wrong or maybe the Church of Alexandria as you say has recently changed things but afaik, cantor (psaltos) and reader (anaghnostos) are non-liturgical or non-priestly/altar roles, which is why they are not supposed to wear the badrashil at all. The only priestly or liturgical ranks are sub-deacon, deacon, (archdeacon), priest, bishop. So the role of cantor is a role of the laity and has been for centuries which is why choirs of men and women as I mentioned before are allowed to serve in this ministry and not serve as a sub-deacon's (and higher) role in the altar.
an oghnostos does wear a padrashel. He is a reader and can serve in the sanctuary. I am not sure if that was originally part of our duties but it is now.
now there is much control and strictness over ordaining deacon over the rank of oghnostos.
hmm, I don't think it was originally but I'll have to check. Also its neat how you wrote patrasheel..its originally from Greek petrikhili which means 'around the neck' so it makes sense its with a p.
[quote author=Timothym link=topic=12807.msg150770#msg150770 date=1326937893] hmm, I don't think it was originally but I'll have to check. Also its neat how you wrote patrasheel..its originally from Greek petrikhili which means 'around the neck' so it makes sense its with a p.
wow...i didn't know that about the padrashel. the thing is, I am a fob....i mix b and p in words that are not english.
[quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=12807.msg150772#msg150772 date=1326938121] [quote author=Timothym link=topic=12807.msg150770#msg150770 date=1326937893] hmm, I don't think it was originally but I'll have to check. Also its neat how you wrote patrasheel..its originally from Greek petrikhili which means 'around the neck' so it makes sense its with a p.
wow...i didn't know that about the padrashel. the thing is, I am a fob....i mix b and p in words that are not english.
hahahaha wooow, I nearly died just now from laughter! I have to contain myself, I'm at work which is in an Orthodox Church office and the priest is inside his office meeting with a couple..I swear they could hear me. Mina I also learned something new today...I didn't know you were a fob lol. Your english is awesome! :)
[quote author=Timothym link=topic=12807.msg150775#msg150775 date=1326938770] [quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=12807.msg150772#msg150772 date=1326938121] [quote author=Timothym link=topic=12807.msg150770#msg150770 date=1326937893] hmm, I don't think it was originally but I'll have to check. Also its neat how you wrote patrasheel..its originally from Greek petrikhili which means 'around the neck' so it makes sense its with a p.
wow...i didn't know that about the padrashel. the thing is, I am a fob....i mix b and p in words that are not english.
hahahaha wooow, I nearly died just now from laughter! I have to contain myself, I'm at work which is in an Orthodox Church office and the priest is inside his office meeting with a couple..I swear they could hear me. Mina I also learned something new today...I didn't know you were a fob lol. Your english is awesome! :)
well despite the fact that i been in the states for over 10 yrs, i still read and write arabic (well enough) and keep some (meaning a LOT) conservative principles. being a fod is not only based on the way you talk but the way you act also matters.
[quote author=TITL link=topic=12807.msg150723#msg150723 date=1326918790] ...cause girls shouldn't be allowed to sing alone? Or cause hymns should never be skipped?
The reason I'm asking is because imikhail's (and ophadece's) opinion is at variance with what I believe, and I'd like to be corrected.
I'm sorry. It wasn't a ridiculous question at all.
[quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=12807.msg150776#msg150776 date=1326938917] [quote author=Timothym link=topic=12807.msg150775#msg150775 date=1326938770] [quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=12807.msg150772#msg150772 date=1326938121] [quote author=Timothym link=topic=12807.msg150770#msg150770 date=1326937893] hmm, I don't think it was originally but I'll have to check. Also its neat how you wrote patrasheel..its originally from Greek petrikhili which means 'around the neck' so it makes sense its with a p.
wow...i didn't know that about the padrashel. the thing is, I am a fob....i mix b and p in words that are not english.
hahahaha wooow, I nearly died just now from laughter! I have to contain myself, I'm at work which is in an Orthodox Church office and the priest is inside his office meeting with a couple..I swear they could hear me. Mina I also learned something new today...I didn't know you were a fob lol. Your english is awesome! :)
well despite the fact that i been in the states for over 10 yrs, i still read and write arabic (well enough) and keep some (meaning a LOT) conservative principles. being a fod is not only based on the way you talk but the way you act also matters.
Comments
I never asked if there weren't any Deacons or if both the Deacons and females know the same responses.
Lets just assume, for my question, that all the Deacons arrive to church, and females don't lead over Deacons, but the females know more than the Deacons do.
Apparently Jimmy thinks its a stupid question, but I'd really like to know.
It is expected that there will be a deacon supporting the priest and leading the congregation in prayer. But if none of the 'deacons' are competent to lead the congregation in responding or in hymns then it is, as far as I can see, entirely appropriate for the congregation to lead itself in those parts of the Liturgy which are proper to it if no-one else is capable. I mean for congregational responses not for the deacon leading prayers.
It's a conundrum. The "official" answer is that women should never raise their voice in church, especially when male deacons, laity or priests are present. But if silence is the answer, then the only victim here is the hymnological tradition. Since the male deacons are negligent to learn hymns in general, then sooner or later silence will beget apathy and apathy will lead to abandonment of the hymn (in this case the Offeratory Alleluia).
So the question really asks what is more dispensable, a hymnological tradition or a perceived female participation?
This is an excellent question. I have my opinion but I won't divulge it for personal reasons. I would like to elaborate on the question.
It's a conundrum. The "official" answer is that women should never raise their voice in church, especially when male deacons, laity or priests are present. But if silence is the answer, then the only victim here is the hymnological tradition. Since the male deacons are negligent to learn hymns in general, then sooner or later silence will beget apathy and apathy will lead to abandonment of the hymn (in this case the Offeratory Alleluia).
So the question really asks what is more dispensable, a hymnological tradition or a perceived female participation?
It seems you're the only person who understands my question.
What is your opinion?
Thank you, Father.
How many church rules and tradition has been broken????? It is like a chain reaction. Once one rule is broken, we will have to brake another rule to correct the old one and so on. If the church in the first place ordained Psaltos based on their abilities not based on who their parents are or how old they, we wouldnot have to deal with problems as such... In my opinion church ranks should have NOTHING again NOTHING to do with age. A simple rule is all what we need: If the person is capable of doing the service honestly and as needed then he should be ordained, no matter how old he is. For us to get rid of this problem, we have to tackle the root of the problem.
I don't believe that the participation of the female laity in the congregational responses should be considered as females taking the place of males. I don't believe that Orthodoxy generally forbids women to participate as members of the congregation.
Correct. Orthodoxy does not forbid women to participate and it should not be considered as females taking the place of males, but it is considered forbidden. Why? And I know I'm going to sound like a broken record.... Because it is a cultural issue. The Arab culture considers it forbidden. And since Christians in the Middle East fail to differentiate culture from religion, these Christians justify this forbidden status contrary to Orthodoxy.
TITL,
My opinion is simple. This is a non-issue. No one will loose their salvation if a girl leads a hymn. Period. We should be offended at sin, which will steal a person of eternal salvation, not who is leading a hymn.
Here is my two cents on the whole issue...
How many church rules and tradition has been broken????? It is like a chain reaction. Once one rule is broken, we will have to brake another rule to correct the old one and so on. If the church in the first place ordained Psaltos based on their abilities not based on who their parents are or how old they, we wouldnot have to deal with problems as such... In my opinion church ranks should have NOTHING again NOTHING to do with age. A simple rule is all what we need: If the person is capable of doing the service honestly and as needed then he should be ordained, no matter how old he is. For us to get rid of this problem, we have to tackle the root of the problem.
I agree with what you said on ordination. Many deacons (even oghnostos) don't even know Ek-esmaraout. But to say that no age requirement is going too far. Can you imagine having an 18 year old priest? I think the main problem TITL was talking about is, what if there's no deacons there to lead?
That's still not what I'm saying.
Just.... forget it.
Remnkemi, thanks.
Can you imagine having an 18 year old priest?
What's wrong with an 18 year old priest? My grandfather was 19. It was socially acceptable 50-100 years ago. It isn't acceptable now because modern requirements Pope Shenouda placed. But there is nothing inherently wrong with a capable 18 or 19 year old leading a congregation to Christ. It is this forbidden mentality that pervades our thinking and results in false justification.
I remember watching of the popes Q&As and he said there has to be at least one deacon, mainly because of the confession at the end of the liturgy. He also made it pretty clear that women can't lead. I think that only applies to the liturgy. As far as tasbeha, I don't see anything wrong with girls leading tasbeha.
i think you are missing something...there MUST be a priest to do his duties, a deacon to do his duties, and a congregation member. a deacon's main duties begin from Reading (being an oghnostos) to as far is serving in the sanctuary and even help give the Blood with certain ranks. being an psaltos is something i consider 'modern'......only when people began to not care about hymns that the Church brought the rank into deaconship.
If there are deacons present, then I don't think girls should lead, regardless if the deacon knows the hymns or not.
so you want all to suffer for one man's sin of not learning what he needs to know to do his duties as a deacon?!
Peter,
That's still not what I'm saying.
Just.... forget it.
Remnkemi, thanks.
Sorry for trying.
[quote author=peter_saad link=topic=12807.msg150728#msg150728 date=1326920196]
If there are deacons present, then I don't think girls should lead, regardless if the deacon knows the hymns or not.
so you want all to suffer for one man's sin of not learning what he needs to know to do his duties as a deacon?!
I said it only applies in minor hymns. (like a communion hymn) if lead deacons don't know what is to be said, then something's wrong
[quote author=peter_saad link=topic=12807.msg150724#msg150724 date=1326918917]
I remember watching of the popes Q&As and he said there has to be at least one deacon, mainly because of the confession at the end of the liturgy. He also made it pretty clear that women can't lead. I think that only applies to the liturgy. As far as tasbeha, I don't see anything wrong with girls leading tasbeha.
i think you are missing something...there MUST be a priest to do his duties, a deacon to do his duties, and a congregation member. a deacon's main duties begin from Reading (being an oghnostos) to as far is serving in the sanctuary and even help give the Blood with certain ranks. being an psaltos is something i consider 'modern'......only when people began to not care about hymns that the Church brought the rank into deaconship.
Does there really have to be a congregation member. Ive done plenty of liturgies with just abouna and myself.
[quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=12807.msg150754#msg150754 date=1326932028]
[quote author=peter_saad link=topic=12807.msg150724#msg150724 date=1326918917]
I remember watching of the popes Q&As and he said there has to be at least one deacon, mainly because of the confession at the end of the liturgy. He also made it pretty clear that women can't lead. I think that only applies to the liturgy. As far as tasbeha, I don't see anything wrong with girls leading tasbeha.
i think you are missing something...there MUST be a priest to do his duties, a deacon to do his duties, and a congregation member. a deacon's main duties begin from Reading (being an oghnostos) to as far is serving in the sanctuary and even help give the Blood with certain ranks. being an psaltos is something i consider 'modern'......only when people began to not care about hymns that the Church brought the rank into deaconship.
Does there really have to be a congregation member. Ive done plenty of liturgies with just abouna and myself.
yes
[quote author=peter_saad link=topic=12807.msg150724#msg150724 date=1326918917]
I remember watching of the popes Q&As and he said there has to be at least one deacon, mainly because of the confession at the end of the liturgy. He also made it pretty clear that women can't lead. I think that only applies to the liturgy. As far as tasbeha, I don't see anything wrong with girls leading tasbeha.
i think you are missing something...there MUST be a priest to do his duties, a deacon to do his duties, and a congregation member. a deacon's main duties begin from Reading (being an oghnostos) to as far is serving in the sanctuary and even help give the Blood with certain ranks. being an psaltos is something i consider 'modern'......only when people began to not care about hymns that the Church brought the rank into deaconship.
I could be wrong or maybe the Church of Alexandria as you say has recently changed things but afaik, cantor (psaltos) and reader (anaghnostos) are non-liturgical or non-priestly/altar roles, which is why they are not supposed to wear the badrashil at all. The only priestly or liturgical ranks are sub-deacon, deacon, (archdeacon), priest, bishop. So the role of cantor is a role of the laity and has been for centuries which is why choirs of men and women as I mentioned before are allowed to serve in this ministry and not serve as a sub-deacon's (and higher) role in the altar.
I could be wrong or maybe the Church of Alexandria as you say has recently changed things but afaik, cantor (psaltos) and reader (anaghnostos) are non-liturgical or non-priestly/altar roles, which is why they are not supposed to wear the badrashil at all. The only priestly or liturgical ranks are sub-deacon, deacon, (archdeacon), priest, bishop. So the role of cantor is a role of the laity and has been for centuries which is why choirs of men and women as I mentioned before are allowed to serve in this ministry and not serve as a sub-deacon's (and higher) role in the altar.
an oghnostos does wear a padrashel. He is a reader and can serve in the sanctuary. I am not sure if that was originally part of our duties but it is now.
now there is much control and strictness over ordaining deacon over the rank of oghnostos.
hmm, I don't think it was originally but I'll have to check. Also its neat how you wrote patrasheel..its originally from Greek petrikhili which means 'around the neck' so it makes sense its with a p.
wow...i didn't know that about the padrashel. the thing is, I am a fob....i mix b and p in words that are not english.
[quote author=Timothym link=topic=12807.msg150770#msg150770 date=1326937893]
hmm, I don't think it was originally but I'll have to check. Also its neat how you wrote patrasheel..its originally from Greek petrikhili which means 'around the neck' so it makes sense its with a p.
wow...i didn't know that about the padrashel. the thing is, I am a fob....i mix b and p in words that are not english.
hahahaha wooow, I nearly died just now from laughter! I have to contain myself, I'm at work which is in an Orthodox Church office and the priest is inside his office meeting with a couple..I swear they could hear me. Mina I also learned something new today...I didn't know you were a fob lol. Your english is awesome! :)
[quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=12807.msg150772#msg150772 date=1326938121]
[quote author=Timothym link=topic=12807.msg150770#msg150770 date=1326937893]
hmm, I don't think it was originally but I'll have to check. Also its neat how you wrote patrasheel..its originally from Greek petrikhili which means 'around the neck' so it makes sense its with a p.
wow...i didn't know that about the padrashel. the thing is, I am a fob....i mix b and p in words that are not english.
hahahaha wooow, I nearly died just now from laughter! I have to contain myself, I'm at work which is in an Orthodox Church office and the priest is inside his office meeting with a couple..I swear they could hear me. Mina I also learned something new today...I didn't know you were a fob lol. Your english is awesome! :)
well despite the fact that i been in the states for over 10 yrs, i still read and write arabic (well enough) and keep some (meaning a LOT) conservative principles. being a fod is not only based on the way you talk but the way you act also matters.
...cause girls shouldn't be allowed to sing alone? Or cause hymns should never be skipped?
The reason I'm asking is because imikhail's (and ophadece's) opinion is at variance with what I believe, and I'd like to be corrected.
I'm sorry. It wasn't a ridiculous question at all.
[quote author=Timothym link=topic=12807.msg150775#msg150775 date=1326938770]
[quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=12807.msg150772#msg150772 date=1326938121]
[quote author=Timothym link=topic=12807.msg150770#msg150770 date=1326937893]
hmm, I don't think it was originally but I'll have to check. Also its neat how you wrote patrasheel..its originally from Greek petrikhili which means 'around the neck' so it makes sense its with a p.
wow...i didn't know that about the padrashel. the thing is, I am a fob....i mix b and p in words that are not english.
hahahaha wooow, I nearly died just now from laughter! I have to contain myself, I'm at work which is in an Orthodox Church office and the priest is inside his office meeting with a couple..I swear they could hear me. Mina I also learned something new today...I didn't know you were a fob lol. Your english is awesome! :)
well despite the fact that i been in the states for over 10 yrs, i still read and write arabic (well enough) and keep some (meaning a LOT) conservative principles. being a fod is not only based on the way you talk but the way you act also matters.
LOL Please tell me you are a sa3idi too!
LOL Please tell me you are a sa3idi too!
nahhh......that would be a killer.