Mariam vs Maria

copticuser20

In Greek and Coptic, Mary is Maria right? So why in Zevte Pantees, it continually says Mariam?

Remnkemi

Mariam is Hebrew and Arabic. As is Miriam. Maria is Greek. Mary is English. The one version of Mary I don't understand is the Syrian/Arabic "marta Mariam"

Devte Pantes is not a Greek hymn. It is a bilingual non-standard Alexandrian Greek with standard and non-standard Bohairic Coptic. And with the use of Mariam, one can argue Arabic lexical interference in the non-standard Bohairic Coptic.

imikhail

The hymn is primarily a Greek hymn as it has many Greek words mixed with Coptic in Greek structure..

dzheremi

[quote author=Remnkemi link=topic=12070.msg143172#msg143172 date=1313380260]The one version of Mary I don't understand is the Syrian/Arabic "marta Mariam"


It seems that "Mart" is just Syriac for (female) saint (cf. "Mari" Mina). Check it out in the online Sureth-English-French dictionary.

Remnkemi

Thanks Dzheremi,

Another great example of bilingual code switching in liturgical texts. Marta Mariam is therefore Syriac code in Arabic texts. It is a Syriac/Arabic bilingual phrase and it gives a snap shot of the sociolinguistic understanding of the multi-linguistic nature of Egypt.

ophadece

Dear Remenkimi,
I think I am lost in your comments. We don't have Marta Marium in Coptic liturgical texts or hymns. Do you suggest that we do? Or is it another point I am missing?
Oujai qen `P[C

Remnkemi

Marta Mariam is found in many exposition/commentaries (tarh) in the Difnar and the Turhat of the feasts. I meant to say it is found in Arabic texts of the Coptic Church, not Coptic texts.

ophadece

Ah OK. I haven't heard of the expression in expositions, but not an expert here of course...
Oujai qen `P[C

ophadece

Very good point Remenkimi makes. I viewed one source, and I may also go as far as arguing that Arabic translators (or commentators) to Coptic hymns have been at fault in arbitrarily forming up new language, and hence the mistakes found in those translations (as is the case I maintain in hymns like agioc ictyn - apetjyk ebol). This mix-up of personal efforts and the absence of a devoted or a designated body to address those issues meant we now moan about something that is perfectly OK by those days' standards, which to me is so OK. In the same vein, although a very dissimilar argument, Shakespeare's language is still preserved in English poetry, and no one made or is going to make as far as I am aware any formal amendments to these...
Oujai qen `P[C

imikhail

[quote author=ophadece link=topic=12070.msg143212#msg143212 date=1313511925]
Very good point Remenkimi makes. I viewed one source, and I may also go as far as arguing that Arabic translators (or commentators) to Coptic hymns have been at fault in arbitrarily forming up new language, and hence the mistakes found in those translations (as is the case I maintain in hymns like agioc ictyn - apetjyk ebol). This mix-up of personal efforts and the absence of a devoted or a designated body to address those issues meant we now moan about something that is perfectly OK by those days' standards, which to me is so OK. In the same vein, although a very dissimilar argument, Shakespeare's language is still preserved in English poetry, and no one made or is going to make as far as I am aware any formal amendments to these...
Oujai qen `P[C


Dear ophadece,

The problem is not in the translation as mush as it is with the author's fluency and command of the language.

The examples you mentioned (Abatjeek awol and ajioc esteen) are modern hymns so we cannot really use them for linguistic standards of authentic Coptic hymns. The structure they follow is not found in the old hymns.

ophadece

I agree...
Oujai

Remnkemi

I disagree with Posts #8 and #9. But we won't open that subject again. Suffice it to say that there maybe other reasons why we have non-standard Coptic/Arabic hymns other than the author's incompetence or the translators incompetence.

imikhail

[quote author=Remnkemi link=topic=12070.msg143315#msg143315 date=1313679739]
I disagree with Posts #8 and #9. But we won't open that subject again. Suffice it to say that there maybe other reasons why we have non-standard Coptic/Arabic hymns other than the author's incompetence or the translators incompetence.


Can you please elaborate?