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Praying Different Liturgies
Hi everyone! I miss tasbeha.org!!! My computer was out getting fixed so I didn't have much access to the forum but anyway,
Can priests pray a different liturgy if they are in a different church?
For example,
Father Paphnotious Malek (I tried to pick an obvious coptic name) goes to an Eritrean Orthodox church. Is Father Paphnotious allowed to pray their liturgy or can he only take Communion with them?
Thanks!
Can priests pray a different liturgy if they are in a different church?
For example,
Father Paphnotious Malek (I tried to pick an obvious coptic name) goes to an Eritrean Orthodox church. Is Father Paphnotious allowed to pray their liturgy or can he only take Communion with them?
Thanks!
Comments
I would think that an OO priest serving at another OO church would use whatever liturgy is native to that particular church. So, if a Coptic priest served at an Armenian Orthodox church with the Armenian priest, they would perform the liturgy native to the Armenians. If an Ethiopian priest served at a Coptic Orthodox church with the Coptic priest, they would perform one of the 3 native Coptic liturgies.
So a Coptic priest cannot pray a Coptic liturgy in another Orthodox Church? Neither can any other Orthodox priest from a sister church pray in a Coptic church except a Coptic liturgy? And then we have another whole thread of 6 pages long (so far) that Copts are debating otherwise!!! how funny?!!! Hehe... I am with you man...
Oujai qen `P[C
I did not say they cannot.
This is the protocol:
A visiting priest from a sister Church prays the liturgy that the hosting Church "normally" prays. For example, if an Ethiopian priest is visiting the Coptic Church, he will pray St Basil liturgy.
However, if the Coptic Church wants to pray the Mariami liturgy as an honor for the Ethipian priest, there is nothing wrong with that.
Oujai qen `P[C
The aim is to prevent liturgical anarchy not exclude hospitality. All such events should be conducted with the permission of the bishop who has authority in his diocese.
Of course.
What I am saying is there is nothing wrong with praying other liturgies within the Coptic Church so long as these liturgies are of a sister Church.
Please let me clarify: are you talking about other sister Orthodox churches using the premises of the Coptic church and praying their liturgies, with Coptic congregation and priests present? If so then I am with you. Or are you talking about a Coptic priest conducting a Coptic liturgy and with the permission of a bishop an Ethiopian priest present may "bolt on" something from the Ethiopian liturgy?
Oujai qen `P[C
It is against the Coptic rite to mix liturgies. Fir example if the priest starts with the Basil liturgy, then he cannot pray Gregorian later on. Yes, I know this does happen, but I am just stating the correct rite.
Oujai qen `P[C
imikhail,
Please let me clarify: are you talking about other sister Orthodox churches using the premises of the Coptic church and praying their liturgies, with Coptic congregation and priests present?
Yes and vice versa. For example, Can Anba David pray a Syrian Orthodox Liturgy in an Ethiopian Orthodox Church?
The first case ophadece.
It is against the Coptic rite to mix liturgies. Fir example if the priest starts with the Basil liturgy, then he cannot pray Gregorian later on. Yes, I know this does happen, but I am just stating the correct rite.
Can you cite something that makes it clear that mixing liturgies is an incorrect practice?
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=11932.msg142110#msg142110 date=1311883896]
The first case ophadece.
It is against the Coptic rite to mix liturgies. Fir example if the priest starts with the Basil liturgy, then he cannot pray Gregorian later on. Yes, I know this does happen, but I am just stating the correct rite.
Can you cite something that makes it clear that mixing liturgies is an incorrect practice?
The khoulagy by Abouna Abdel Maassieh originally printed 1898 from which all the current books took their material. I do not have it in front of me to cite the page number.
[quote author=Unworthy1 link=topic=11932.msg142136#msg142136 date=1311910828]
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=11932.msg142110#msg142110 date=1311883896]
The first case ophadece.
It is against the Coptic rite to mix liturgies. Fir example if the priest starts with the Basil liturgy, then he cannot pray Gregorian later on. Yes, I know this does happen, but I am just stating the correct rite.
Can you cite something that makes it clear that mixing liturgies is an incorrect practice?
The khoulagy by Abouna Abdel Maassieh originally printed 1898 from which all the current books took their material. I do not have it in front of me to cite the page number.
Where can a copy be purchased? Is it available online? I want to print this page. Thanks.
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=11932.msg142143#msg142143 date=1311912312]
[quote author=Unworthy1 link=topic=11932.msg142136#msg142136 date=1311910828]
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=11932.msg142110#msg142110 date=1311883896]
The first case ophadece.
It is against the Coptic rite to mix liturgies. Fir example if the priest starts with the Basil liturgy, then he cannot pray Gregorian later on. Yes, I know this does happen, but I am just stating the correct rite.
Can you cite something that makes it clear that mixing liturgies is an incorrect practice?
The khoulagy by Abouna Abdel Maassieh originally printed 1898 from which all the current books took their material. I do not have it in front of me to cite the page number.
Where can a copy be purchased? Is it available online? I want to print this page. Thanks.
It is all in Arabic/Coptic. It may be available in your church among the service books. I will look it up scan it and send it to you.
[quote author=Unworthy1 link=topic=11932.msg142144#msg142144 date=1311912985]
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=11932.msg142143#msg142143 date=1311912312]
[quote author=Unworthy1 link=topic=11932.msg142136#msg142136 date=1311910828]
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=11932.msg142110#msg142110 date=1311883896]
The first case ophadece.
It is against the Coptic rite to mix liturgies. Fir example if the priest starts with the Basil liturgy, then he cannot pray Gregorian later on. Yes, I know this does happen, but I am just stating the correct rite.
Can you cite something that makes it clear that mixing liturgies is an incorrect practice?
The khoulagy by Abouna Abdel Maassieh originally printed 1898 from which all the current books took their material. I do not have it in front of me to cite the page number.
Where can a copy be purchased? Is it available online? I want to print this page. Thanks.
It is all in Arabic/Coptic. It may be available in your church among the service books. I will look it up scan it and send it to you.
Thanks.
I hope I can get my hands on a copy as well if you don't mind.
Oujai qen `P[C
Dear imikhail,
I hope I can get my hands on a copy as well if you don't mind.
Oujai qen `P[C
Sure.
Oujai qen `P[C
Example: In the Syrian Orthodox Church, in all of Its Syrian Jurisdictions, only Syriac can be used...not many, if any Coptic priests know Syriac.
Example: In the Armenian Apostolic Orthodox Church, in all of Its Jurisdictions, only Classical Armenian may be used...not many, if any Coptic priests know Armenian to participate in the Badarak
In the Coptic Church, you can use any language under the sun, and so, any visiting clergy may be able to participate because of a common language ability.
His Holiness, Pope Shenouda, and the Holy Synod have made it quite clear that the Three Main Liturgies are the only ones to be used in the Coptic Church, with exceptions such as in the case of the British Jurisdiction--for example.
Although a bishop, in his local diocese, may wave this particular sanction, and they generally do not. I do not know of any situation where this has happened. If a local priest does this, on his own, as shall we say a 'quite interlude', he is specifically going against the decisions of the Holy Synod and can suffer sanctions for such, and I do know priests that have faced this penalty.
In terms of the annual conCelebration of the Divine Liturgy in the USA, this is a tradition that goes back to 1981 that was carried out in Philadelphia and repeated in 1983 in New York City at St. Vartan Cathedral, and almost annually since then for the Oriental Orthodox. The Tradition that was established, for the sake of unity and experiencing the Liturgical life in each Sister Church, was to rotate to a given locale and jurisdiction each year as a host, and to offer the Divine Liturgy in the form of the given Church. English, for example, is allowed to facilitate inclusion.
Hence, if they were in the Armenian Church, the Armenian form of the Divine Liturgy would be utilized by everyone, and so on...
Hospitality is not defined by changing the Liturgy to accommodate a sole presence of one clergy member. It is not a precedence nor a tradition in the Coptic Church, and it is silly to do so.
Even when the thrice blessed of memory Mar (Mor) Athanasius Yeshue Samuel, one of the finders of the Dead Sea Scroll, came to St. Mark in Jersey City to preside over the Liturgy, used the Liturgy of St. Basil. I might add, he did so in Arabic, English, and some Coptic that he learned for the occasion. Despite the fact that he was a leading voice of abhorence against the use of Arabic in any liturgy.
He did make it a point, when the Lord's Prayer was pronounced, to do so in Syriac. He believed that the Lord's Prayer should only be pronounced in the language that Our Lord, Himself pronounced and used.
I particularly love the Armenian Badarak. I attend, at times, in the Armenian Church the Badarak. I participate in the Armenian Language, the chanting and hymns, and was even asked to serve in the altar at the side of the Supreme Catholicos of All Armenians on one of his pontifical visits to the USA. His question to me was: 'how is it that you have an Armenian tongue and are vested like a Coptic?' To which I replied, 'I am Orthodox first and everything else second.' I believe that having learned so much, and been under the direct tutelage of the different Oriental Orthodox has given me an opportunity to appreciate history, and the rich life of the Orthodox Church.
Naturally, I have full permission to serve in the Armenian Church, having sought that permission from episcopal authorities. It is not of whim that crossing jurisdictional boundaries are carried out.
When Mar Athanasius, in the USA, went to his repose, a Coptic bishop attended the Liturgy as HH Patriarch Ighnatius Zakka I Iwas presided over the Liturgy. Pope Shenouda was present in the United States, and was good friends with His Eminence, did not attend personally the Funeral Liturgy in order not to supersede the presence of Patriarch Zakka or any of the traditions of the Syriac Church in order to accommodate his presence.
Alot of these things are discussed prior to any undertaking in order to avoid confusion or embarassment. For example, Chorepiscopos John Meno, made overtures to Bp Suriel (in the USA at the time as patriarchal exarch of Pope Shenouda for the Eastern USA) to determine the best scenario for that occasion.
[quote author=Unworthy1 link=topic=11932.msg142144#msg142144 date=1311912985]
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=11932.msg142143#msg142143 date=1311912312]
[quote author=Unworthy1 link=topic=11932.msg142136#msg142136 date=1311910828]
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=11932.msg142110#msg142110 date=1311883896]
The first case ophadece.
It is against the Coptic rite to mix liturgies. Fir example if the priest starts with the Basil liturgy, then he cannot pray Gregorian later on. Yes, I know this does happen, but I am just stating the correct rite.
Can you cite something that makes it clear that mixing liturgies is an incorrect practice?
The khoulagy by Abouna Abdel Maassieh originally printed 1898 from which all the current books took their material. I do not have it in front of me to cite the page number.
Where can a copy be purchased? Is it available online? I want to print this page. Thanks.
It is all in Arabic/Coptic. It may be available in your church among the service books. I will look it up scan it and send it to you.
It's been a month, man.
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=11932.msg142456#msg142456 date=1312285040]
[quote author=Unworthy1 link=topic=11932.msg142144#msg142144 date=1311912985]
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=11932.msg142143#msg142143 date=1311912312]
[quote author=Unworthy1 link=topic=11932.msg142136#msg142136 date=1311910828]
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=11932.msg142110#msg142110 date=1311883896]
The first case ophadece.
It is against the Coptic rite to mix liturgies. Fir example if the priest starts with the Basil liturgy, then he cannot pray Gregorian later on. Yes, I know this does happen, but I am just stating the correct rite.
Can you cite something that makes it clear that mixing liturgies is an incorrect practice?
The khoulagy by Abouna Abdel Maassieh originally printed 1898 from which all the current books took their material. I do not have it in front of me to cite the page number.
Where can a copy be purchased? Is it available online? I want to print this page. Thanks.
It is all in Arabic/Coptic. It may be available in your church among the service books. I will look it up scan it and send it to you.
It's been a month, man.
Unworthy,
I am sorry for the delay. I have been away from home for the last three months and unfortunately that is where all my books are. The Church I attend right now have only English copies and not the one that I referred to.
Please, pray for me. I will do my best to get the reference to you and to the others that have requested it.
BTW, you typed your response in the middle of the quote. . .