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Apostles Feast
Hi everyone. Is the apostles feast festive tune or annual tune?
Comments
OUjai
...and the Feasts of the Cross.
That is placed under the category of "Sha3nini."
To determine which occasion falls under which category, just listen to each tune that you would chant "Jefesmaroot." In the Feasts of the Cross, "Jefesmaroot" is chanted in the Sha3nini tune but it is sang in the Festive tune all of the Major and Minor Lordly Feasts (excluding Palm Sunday).
[quote author=ilovesaintmark link=topic=11834.msg141257#msg141257 date=1310423562]
...and the Feasts of the Cross.
That is placed under the category of "Sha3nini."
it's sha3anini-faraihe....
Are the hymns the same as the fast? Like ontos and asomen?
in addition to parts of Saints Peter and Paul--inclduing ondos
I've always thought it would make sense to do St. Mary's fast in the Kiahk tune.
that's what people think.....but that would just undermine the spirituality of Kiahk.
For as much love i have for the Virgin, my intercessor, Kiahk is about us praising enough to welcome the only-begotten Son. Saint Mary is a BIG part of that, but she is not everything.
The Hoshani tune is used for the overall Feast of the Cross, however, the Festal Tune is used for the Responses of the Liturgy.
EXACTLY!!!!
[quote author=ilovesaintmark link=topic=11834.msg141316#msg141316 date=1310468697]
The Hoshani tune is used for the overall Feast of the Cross, however, the Festal Tune is used for the Responses of the Liturgy.
EXACTLY!!!!
The original rite was not so.
The Hoshaana tune is specific to the feast of the Cross and the Feast of Hosaana with no festal tune. The manuscript Tarteeb Al Bay3aa is very clear in this regard.That is why the instruction for the liturgy psalm is that it can be prayed either in the annual tune or the festal one.
Later on, the festal tune crept into the these feasts but as of confusion that since all the lordly feasts are prayed with the festal tune, then this applies also for these feasts.
Now, I am not advocating that we go back to the original rite, though this is commendable, I am just explaining how the rite changed.
Asoman is not to be sung during the feast of the apostles. That is my understanding... and of course the Acts response and Gospel responses are different. Is there a specific verse for verses of cymbals? Not sure
Oujai
Dear Mina and copticuser20,
Asoman is not to be sung during the feast of the apostles. That is my understanding...
I am not sure...i need to check some books...
and of course the Acts response and Gospel responses are different. Is there a specific verse for verses of cymbals? Not sure
Oujai
yes....there is part for the verses of cymbals.....there is also a doxology.....there is a part for ondos that we also said today.
It is the declaration of the People on the Triumphant Entry into Jerusalem.
It is the same for our call to the Cross (specifically, He Who is on the Cross).
Why do we use the Shanini tune for the feast of the cross? How are Palm Sunday and the Feast of the Cross related to have the same tune?
Jesus' entry to Jerusalem marked the beginning of passion and ended with the Cross.
We honor the cross for through it salvation was accomplished and the Church reminds us of the triumph we were granted through the rite of the Cross procession.
Hosh Aana = literally "keep from us"; in rendition--save us; or keep bad from being around us.
Sorry I didn't reply sooner. I don't think Hosh Ana is the etymology of Shaneeni because 'hosh ana" is colloquial Arabic, not Syriac, Aramaic, Modern Standard Arabic or Egyptian Arabic. To me, hosh ana sounds like it might have a Coptic origin. But I'm not sure. Maybe Shaneeni has a Coptic origin, but I can find it. There must be a source to this word somewhere. Anybody have any ideas?
[quote author=ilovesaintmark link=topic=11834.msg141332#msg141332 date=1310482011]
Hosh Aana = literally "keep from us"; in rendition--save us; or keep bad from being around us.
Sorry I didn't reply sooner. I don't think Hosh Ana is the etymology of Shaneeni because 'hosh ana" is colloquial Arabic, not Syriac, Aramaic, Modern Standard Arabic or Egyptian Arabic. To me, hosh ana sounds like it might have a Coptic origin. But I'm not sure. Maybe Shaneeni has a Coptic origin, but I can find it. There must be a source to this word somewhere. Anybody have any ideas?
Hosana is the Greek word for Hoshaana which is a Hebrew word meaning "save us". Shaaneeny is an Arabic word for Hoshana.
Oujai qen `P[C
The Greek word, Hossana, ὡσαννά, /hōsanná/ is derived from the Hebrew word הושיעה־נא, /hôšî‘â-nā'/. /hoshi a na/ is literally verbatim of Psalm 118:25. It is also found in Jeremiah 23:5, 6. It is plausible that /shaneni/ is derived from /hoshi a na/. However, it's a little bit of a stretch. The first syllable is dropped. I can understand dropping the "h", which is found a lot in Greek and Coptic. But dropping "ho" is not found anywhere in Coptic texts or Alexandrian Greek. Also, /shi a na/ is a bit different than /sha nee ni/. It is reverese OB (the letter "a" takes the sound of "e"). In addition, the Copto-Arabic word /sha nee ni/ adds an extra "n" to /shi an a/. This type of morphological transference is not seen anywhere.
I cannot find any Coptic or Arabic lexicon with the word shaneeni. If shaneeni (only found in Copto-Arabic texts) is taken from /hoshi a ana/, then it must have been received from the Jews in Egypt. Still there is no primary source to corroborate. Maybe there is another way the Arabic word shaneeni came about.
Your lack of understanding in Arabic keeps you going on a slippery slope. The word sha'anin is an Arabic word, not Copto-Arabic as you claim. In Coptic we use the Greek word wcanna. I don't know what the tune is named in Coptic, but certainly it won't be sha'nini. That is an Arabic word. Sha'anin in Arabic is derived from the Hebrew-Aramaic as ilovesaintmark pointed out, hosha'na, and is taken to mean "exuberations", "jubilations", etc. Please refer to (anybody who can read Arabic not necessarily Remenkimi) an Arabic-Arabic dictionary, rather than Christian websites, which are arbitrary and inconclusive.
Oujai qen `P[C
No.
Dear Remenkimi,
Your lack of understanding in Arabic keeps you going on a slippery slope.
This is why I asked for help.
The word sha'anin is an Arabic word, not Copto-Arabic as you claim.
Copto-Arabic does not necessarily mean Arabic words borrowed from Coptic or vise versa. It is a literary genre that Arabists use to describe Christian Arabic writings in Egypt. They also use Christian Arabic writings but this doesn't distinguish between Coptic Orthodox, Catholic, Syriac, or Armenian Arabic writings. The term Copto-Arabic is used often.
In Coptic we use the Greek word wcanna.
The Greek is obviously a transliteration of the Hebrew Ho-shi a na. And only the first "h" is dropped and the "sh" switched to an "s" letter. This kind of shifting is found quite often. There are no additional "n" letters. So while Hoshi a na to Osanna makes senses, both Hoshi a na to Shaneeni and Osanna to Shaneeni is strange.
That is an Arabic word.
This is sort of what I'm getting at. If Shaneeni is an Arabic word, it would be found in non-Christian writings. It is not. In fact, Arabic dictionaries say the opposite. See below.
Sha'anin in Arabic is derived from the Hebrew-Aramaic as ilovesaintmark pointed out, hosha'na, and is taken to mean "exuberations", "jubilations", etc. Please refer to (anybody who can read Arabic not necessarily Remenkimi) an Arabic-Arabic dictionary, rather than Christian websites, which are arbitrary and inconclusive.
On Lexilogos site, there are 30 or so Arabic dictionaries. 7 are online translators. None of them have the word "shaneeni".
The following dictionaries are found in print:
1. Dictionary of Modern Written Arabic: Hans Wehr 1976: Shaneeni found. Only definitions is "Palm Sunday"
2. Al Mawrid: 1995. No entry
3. Arabic English Dictionary: Wortabet 1995. Shaneeni found. Shaneen means palms. Shaneeni means "Palm Sunday"
4. Etymological Dictionary of the Arabic language: No entry.
5. Dictionary of Semitic roots of Arabic, Hebrew, Aramaic. I can't tell if it's here since I can't read Hebrew, Aramaic or Syriac. But it's not found in the Arabic section.
6. Arabic English Lexcion: Lane 1863. No entry
7. Arabic English Vocabulary for the use of Modern Egyptian Arabic: Cameron 1892. Shaneeni found.
8. Arabic English Vocabulary of the Colloquial Arabic of Egypt: Spiro 1895. Shaneeni found.
9. English-Arabic Vocabulary for the use of officials in the Anglo-Egyptian Sudan: No entry. All entries for "palm or palm branch or palm tree" give other words.
10. Dictionary and Glossary of the Koran: Penrice 1873. No entry.
11. Lexicon Arabico-latinum: Freytag 1895. No entry
12. The foreign vocabulary of the Koran: Jeffery 1938. No entry.
13. Die aramäischen Fremdwörter im arabischen: Aramaic loanwords in Arabic, by Siegmund Fraenkel (1886) No entry. I think. I can't read German.
14. Arabic manual, Colloquial handbook in the Syrian dialect: Crow (1901, Not found
So we have 4 out of 30 or so dictiontionaries that have the word Shaneeni. This leads to the conclusion that Shaneeni is not an Arabic word found in Standard Arabic dictionaries (whether Classical Arabic, Modern Standard Arabic, or non-Egyptian Arabic). It is only found in Egyptian Arabic dictionaries and there is no etymological entry in any of them.
There was one dictionary. I think it was Wartabet's dictonary that says "shaneen" means a "branch" of anything, including flowers. So if "shaneen" is an Arabic word that means branches, then it has nothing to do with Hoshi ana. If, however, it is the Christian version of Hoshi ana, then it doesn't come from standard Arabic. It comes from Christian Egyptian colloquialism, which is part of the Copt-Arabic Christian genre.
If Shaneeni comes from Hoshi ana, then why did such a dramatic linguistic shift take place when such a shift is not found anywhere else? And why is it not written in any etymological dictionary of Aramaic, Hebrew or Syriac loan words in Arabic? I think the jury is still out on the etymology of Shaneeni. Shaneeni is probably derived from Hoshi ana, since it is not found in Modern Standard Arabic, or any Arabic dialect outside of Egypt. From there, the word shaneen came about, which means palms. Although all the dictionaries I've listed have multiple, more frequently used words for palms. None of these dictionaries give the meaning of "jubilation" or "exuberation". This secondary meaning is probably a more urbanized or localized meaning, not found in any standard Arabic dictionary.
I hope this references were not arbitrary and inconclusive.
Copto-Arabic does necessarily mean Coptic words that had entered the Egyptian colloquial as part of the transition from Coptic to Arabic. There are thousands of such words.
There are also English, Italian, French and Spanish that are used by the Egyptians in an Arabic word structure.
So Shaaniny is a Hebrew-Aramaic word that entered the Egyptian Colloquial.
Thanks for your effort though.
YOu can't read Arabic as far as I remember you saying, but I don't like you persistent insistence on quoting things you don't fully appraise. I don't take articles at face value and I don't necessarily know more or less than the author but trying to find the etymology of a certain word isn't an exercise I know anything about. Where you are wrong is this: sha'anin is a word found in quran... I found a link to one passage while I was searching the meaning for. Please don't keep making claims and proving them without evaluating how those claims apply to something you understand...
Oujai
There is no need to keep pointing out my inadequancies in Arabic. You said "refer to an Arabic dictionary, rather than Christian websites." And I did. I found 30 or so dictionaries. If you believe articles and dictionaries are inadequate, then why did you instruct us to use dictionaries. And I am not simply making empty claims. I gave references. If you have a reference of the word "shaanin" in the Quran, the please give it to us. Two of dictionaries I referred specifically address words in the Quran and I did not find any entries for "sha'anin". If anyone would like to go through the dictionaries and see if I missed something, then go ahead. But don't say I'm making making claims without evaluating these claims.
You also didn't respond to my argument. If Shanin is a word in Quarnic/Classical Arabic, it has nothing to do with hoshi ana. So which is it? Is "shaanin" an Arabic word in proper Arabic or a Hebrew word found in Egyptian colloquialism. It can't be both. I've given some evidence that it can't be an Arabic word found in Classical or Modern Standard Arabic. And while it may be etymologically related to Hoshiana, it has an unusual linguistic transference.