Feast of the cross on a sunday (Tai Shory, or Tee Shory)?

edited December 1969 in Hymns Discussion
Hi All,
I have a question about the coming Feast of the cross on Sunday.
Do we say Tai Shory or Tee Shory? Cantor Ibrahim Ayad says (on his tapes) that we say Tee Shory.
What is your opinion?
thanks
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Comments

  • I thought the Feast of the Cross will fall on Saturday? I am not sure if that makes any difference in which hymn is chanted.
  • [quote author=baladoos link=topic=10986.msg133101#msg133101 date=1300244801]
    Hi All,
    I have a question about the coming Feast of the cross on Sunday.
    Do we say Tai Shory or Tee Shory? Cantor Ibrahim Ayad says (on his tapes) that we say Tee Shory.
    What is your opinion?
    thanks


    I WANT THOSE TAPES!!!!!!!...his rite for the feast of the cross.

    and also, the feast is on saturday not sunday. there should be vespers friday night. also readings are differnt: Baramhat 10th
  • [quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=10986.msg133103#msg133103 date=1300245211]
    I WANT THOSE TAPES!!!!!!!...his rite for the feast of the cross.


    I second that :)
  • Now that we are on the subject of the feast of the cross, is Fai Etaf Enf chanted in its regular pascha tune?
  • [quote author=kmeka001 link=topic=10986.msg133112#msg133112 date=1300257590]
    Now that we are on the subject of the feast of the cross, is Fai Etaf Enf chanted in its regular pascha tune?

    yes. that "way" rather is its unique one that goes with it all the time.
    i think it was maher ekaldas from coptichymns.net who said that there was an old text that said the hymn is prayed in the praxis response way and that's what cantor Fahim recorded. but the Synod still urges (maybe even decided) that it would just be in its unique tune whenever it is said.....atleast according to what Albair said.
  • [quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=10986.msg133113#msg133113 date=1300258016]
    [quote author=kmeka001 link=topic=10986.msg133112#msg133112 date=1300257590]
    Now that we are on the subject of the feast of the cross, is Fai Etaf Enf chanted in its regular pascha tune?

    yes. that "way" rather is its unique one that goes with it all the time.
    i think it was maher ekaldas from coptichymns.net who said that there was an old text that said the hymn is prayed in the praxis response way and that's what cantor Fahim recorded. but the Synod still urges (maybe even decided) that it would just be in its unique tune whenever it is said.....atleast according to what Albair said.


    Yes, that is what I heard too. I heard that the praxis response way is chanted if the feast falls on a Saturday or a Sunday but if it falls on a weekday, then it is chanted in the pascha way. Which way is it for this weekend, then?
  • Also, when is etaven nieskhai said in the liturgy? After the synaxarium?

    Also, when is fai etaf enf said in the liturgy? Because there are several sources on this site that have it in different order. Wagdi Bishara has it before the intercessions and Cantor Farag has it before the praxis response.
  • Mina I think it was atthwoui who mentioned that, not maherkaldas.
    oujai qen `P[C
  • [quote author=kmeka001 link=topic=10986.msg133121#msg133121 date=1300262225]
    Also, when is etaven nieskhai said in the liturgy? After the synaxarium?

    After the Senixar. in vespers, it's after Efnouti nai nan when the a procession is done.


    Also, when is fai etaf enf said in the liturgy? Because there are several sources on this site that have it in different order. Wagdi Bishara has it before the intercessions and Cantor Farag has it before the praxis response.

    It is after tee-shory before the hettennis. With m.Farag too but it appears that whoever uploaded the files switch their sorting order simply because the original files were not number but rather alphabetized.

    [quote author=kmeka001 link=topic=10986.msg133120#msg133120 date=1300262003]
    Yes, that is what I heard too. I heard that the praxis response way is chanted if the feast falls on a Saturday or a Sunday but if it falls on a weekday, then it is chanted in the pascha way. Which way is it for this weekend, then?

    it will be "paschal" tune at ANY TIME when it is said.
  • How about in Saturday.
    How is the Verspers Praise different?
    I assume that it would be as follows:
    Niethnos
    Fourth Hoos
    Psali for the Feast of the Cross (in what tune?)
    Psali for the Great Lent (in what tune?)
    Psali for Friday
    Theotokia for Friday (in what tune?)
    Lobsh for Theotokia Friday (in what tune?)
    Antiphonarium
    Conclusion of the Batos days
    Please correct me if I am wrong and please also specify the tunes. I think that the Feast
    of the Cros tune is like "Osanna khen ne etchoci fai be eporo..."
    How about the vespers?
    God bless and Pray for me,
    Cyril
  • [quote author=baladoos link=topic=10986.msg133101#msg133101 date=1300244801]
    Do we say Tai Shory or Tee Shory? Cantor Ibrahim Ayad says (on his tapes) that we say Tee Shory.


    In Muallem Albair's Deacon Service book (2nd ed, p201), it says TEE SHORI.

    On Muallem Ibrahim's recording, it says TEE SHORI.

    In the rites book made by El-Sorian Monastery (3rd ed, p45), it says: "TEE SHORI, but if the Feast of the Cross is on a Sunday, you say TAI SHORI instead."

    The late Muallem Fahim Girgis says: "TAI SHORI on 17th, 18th and 19th of Toot, but TEE SHORI on 10 Baramhat."
  • [quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=10986.msg133103#msg133103 date=1300245211]
    I WANT THOSE TAPES!!!!!!!...his rite for the feast of the cross.


    Dear Mina,

    I have a copy. I would usually say it is better to buy the genuine CD to support Muallem Ibrahim financially, but I know how difficult it is to obtain such treasures outside Egypt. It took me years to find it. Just let me know how I can pass them onto you so you can upload them on this site.

    [quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=10986.msg133103#msg133103 date=1300245211]
    and also, the feast is on saturday not sunday. there should be vespers friday night. also readings are differnt: Baramhat 10th


    According to the rites book by El-Sorian Monastery (3rd ed, p90), regarding the Feast of the Cross on 10 Baramhat, you read the readings of 17 Toot.
  • [quote author=kmeka001 link=topic=10986.msg133112#msg133112 date=1300257590]
    Now that we are on the subject of the feast of the cross, is Fai Etaf Enf chanted in its regular pascha tune?


    This is what it says on the recording of Muallem Ibrahim Ayad: "After tee-shori, you say Fai-etaf-enf in its crucifixion (Passion Week) tune."

    Later on it says when Fai-etaf-enf is said in the funeral of deacons and clergy (priests, bishops etc) at certain times, it is said in the ACTS RESPONSE tune. Those certains times are the Holy 50 days after resurrection, Lord Feasts, From Nairooz to Feast of the Cross, and on Annual Sundays.

    The Late Muallem Fahim Girgis records that in the Feasts of the Cross, Fai-etaf-enf should be said in the ACTS RESPONSE tune and not the Passion Week tune.

    This may explain why there is so much confusion. Every Cantor (muallem) has received the rites as they were passed down to him from the previous ones. Of course, the Holy Synod has made changes to the Feast of the Cross rites in recent years. I don't know if everyone has heard of their decisions and may be that's why there are different opinions out there. Personally, I follow the teachings of Muallem Ibrahim, for the sake of having an authoritative, up-to-date reference.
  • [quote author=Cyril97 link=topic=10986.msg133142#msg133142 date=1300286328]
    How about in Saturday.
    How is the Verspers Praise different?


    The Feast of the Cross is treated like Lord Feasts. You use the Festive (farayhee) tune and Palm Sunday (sha-nini) tune where appropriate.

    Psali for the Feast of the Cross (in what tune?) - FESTIVE (farayhee)
    Psali for the Great Lent (in what tune?) - My opinion is that you wouldn't say this, as you are celebrating a feast that is treated like a Lord Feast.
    Psali for Friday - FESTIVE WATOS tune - http://tasbeha.org/mp3/Hymns/Other_Occasions/Feast_of_the_Cross/Wagdi_Bishara.html
    Theotokia for Friday (in what tune?) - YEARLY (sanawy). THE KIAHKY/LENTEN TUNE WOULD NOT BE APPROPRIATE FOR THIS FEAST.
    Lobsh for Theotokia Friday (in what tune?) - PALM SUNDAY (sha-nini) TUNE.
    Antiphonarium - THE ANTIPHONARIUM HAS THE SAME TUNE AS THE EXPOSITION (tarh) - http://tasbeha.org/mp3/Hymns/Other_Occasions/Feast_of_the_Cross/Wagdi_Bishara.html

    Conclusion of the Batos days
    Please correct me if I am wrong and please also specify the tunes. I think that the Feast
    of the Cros tune is like "Osanna khen ne etchoci fai be eporo..." - CORRECT. THIS IS THE PALM SUNDAY (sha-nini) tune I've been referring to.

    How about the vespers? - FESTIVE AND PALM SUNDAY TUNES WITH A PROCESSION AFTER EVNOTI NAI NAN.
  • WOW!
    That was very clear and to the point.
    So no Great Lent Psali? I think you should say it because you are still fasting
    and the fast does not really get disturbed with this feast. Only no abstinence and
    you can't do abstinence on Saturday, so I guess you can say it !?!
    For the vespers, whould we use the Golden Censer with the bells?
    What do you sing during the procession?
    God bless, Pray for me,
    Cyril
  • [quote author=Cyril97 link=topic=10986.msg133149#msg133149 date=1300292777]
    What do you sing during the procession?


    You will find the answer here:

    http://www.copticheritage.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=PagEd&file=index&page_id=378
  • [quote author=mechaiel link=topic=10986.msg133157#msg133157 date=1300295491]
    [quote author=Cyril97 link=topic=10986.msg133149#msg133149 date=1300292777]
    What do you sing during the procession?


    You will find the answer here:

    http://www.copticheritage.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=PagEd&file=index&page_id=378

    Aftar Efnouti nai nan, Amen Kerie Leison is said in the long tune. After that Etav-enni eskhay is said and is repeated in other languages if needed until the processions ends. After that the exposition/commentary is read by abouna (or even chanted like Mashenak of palm sunday first).
  • So is the giant procession around the church that takes a long time done? Or am I confusing this with Palm Sunday?
  • [quote author=copticuser20 link=topic=10986.msg133165#msg133165 date=1300302111]
    So is the giant procession around the church that takes a long time done? Or am I confusing this with Palm Sunday?

    there is a procession of the feast that is done during vespers. a normal one: 3 around the altar, 3 around the church, 1 more around the altar. in that you say etav-enni-eskhay and so one as i said.

    during matins: there is what is called "the Procession of the feast of the Cross." it begins like the one in vespers except after etavvini eskhay and the commentary, one procession is done around the church while stopping at specific icons and praying a psalm, a gospel and a gospel response.
  • [quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=10986.msg133170#msg133170 date=1300302723]
    [quote author=copticuser20 link=topic=10986.msg133165#msg133165 date=1300302111]
    So is the giant procession around the church that takes a long time done? Or am I confusing this with Palm Sunday?

    there is a procession of the feast that is done during vespers. a normal one: 3 around the altar, 3 around the church, 1 more around the altar. in that you say etav-enni-eskhay and so one as i said.

    during matins: there is what is called "the Procession of the feast of the Cross." it begins like the one in vespers except after etavvini eskhay and the commentary, one procession is done around the church while stopping at specific icons and praying a psalm, a gospel and a gospel response.

    So it is basically like the Palm Sunday procession in matins?
  • Dear Cyril97,
    No you wouldn't sing the Lenten psali or taodokeya. The Lordly feast trumps any other ceremonial, even though we eat fasting food still. Readings, and fraction in liturgy should all be directed towards one thing.
    Copticuser20,
    Basically yes
    Oujai
  • [quote author=copticuser20 link=topic=10986.msg133185#msg133185 date=1300308222]
    So it is basically like the Pal Sunday procession in matins?

    YES except instead of Osanna khenni etetshosi, you'd say Evol hetin pef-estavros.
  • Is everything farayhee during the LiturgY?
  • [quote author=copticuser20 link=topic=10986.msg133210#msg133210 date=1300319548]
    Is everything farayhee during the LiturgY?

    yeah
  • The Psalm 150 responses are different here: http://tasbeha.org/hymn_library/view/2065 and http://tasbeha.org/mp3/Hymns/Other_Occasions/Feast_of_the_Cross/Wagdi_Bishara.html.

    Which is correct? And what is the text and translation for the Wagdi Bishara one?
  • [quote author=copticuser20 link=topic=10986.msg133213#msg133213 date=1300320267]
    The Psalm 150 responses are different here: http://tasbeha.org/hymn_library/view/2065 and http://tasbeha.org/mp3/Hymns/Other_Occasions/Feast_of_the_Cross/Wagdi_Bishara.html.

    Which is correct? And what is the text and translation for the Wagdi Bishara one?

    there isn't a "set" psalm 150 response for the feast of the cross. the one on the text library is the one that many choose to be the one to sing. Wagdi Bishara believes that it should be somthing else that is specifically about the Cross. So He said:
    Pi`ctauroc pe penhoplon nem [email protected] nem penoujai nem pensousou.
    The Cross is our weapon and our hope, and our salvation and our pride.
  • [quote author=mechaiel link=topic=10986.msg133145#msg133145 date=1300289613]
    [quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=10986.msg133103#msg133103 date=1300245211]
    I WANT THOSE TAPES!!!!!!!...his rite for the feast of the cross.


    Dear Mina,

    I have a copy. I would usually say it is better to buy the genuine CD to support Muallem Ibrahim financially, but I know how difficult it is to obtain such treasures outside Egypt. It took me years to find it. Just let me know how I can pass them onto you so you can upload them on this site.

    [quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=10986.msg133103#msg133103 date=1300245211]
    and also, the feast is on saturday not sunday. there should be vespers friday night. also readings are differnt: Baramhat 10th


    According to the rites book by El-Sorian Monastery (3rd ed, p90), regarding the Feast of the Cross on 10 Baramhat, you read the readings of 17 Toot.


    Please PM it to me. Thanks and God bless.
  • This is where Cantor Wagdy made a mistake. The refrain should refer to God: praise God in all His saints, Jesus Christ WHO fasted (was crucified, rose, etc); praise HIm ...
    Oujai
  • [quote author=ophadece link=topic=10986.msg133260#msg133260 date=1300392686]
    This is where Cantor Wagdy made a mistake. The refrain should refer to God: praise God in all His saints, Jesus Christ WHO fasted (was crucified, rose, etc); praise HIm ...
    Oujai


    What do we say for Nayrouz?
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