Ask a Coptic Word

edited December 1969 in Hymns Discussion
I think it's good to use a central thread to ask people for the meaning of some coptic words :-) Maybe we can make a small dictionary of words that are used a lot in church.

I'm looking for:
a;lovoroc
ni etki niman


I'm not sure if the spelling is correct, please correct me if I'm wrong:
Athlophoros
Ni etki niman
«1

Comments


  • ny etki neman - "who are with us"
  • It seems that "athlophoros" is a Greek loan, meaning "victorious".
  • [quote author=dzheremi link=topic=10808.msg131391#msg131391 date=1298399403]
    It seems that "athlophoros" is a Greek loan, meaning "victorious".


    I think so too. "Athlon" means prize, "foros" means "mantled" (e.g. piepnevmatoforos - "the one who wears the Spirit"). So if you bear/carry the prize, that makes you victorious.
  • Thanks a lot to both of you. :-)
  • I think this is a great idea. Does anyone know the days of the week and the hours (e.g. 1st, 3rd, 6th, etc...) in Coptic? That would be great. Thanks a lot.
  • [quote author=Aegyptian link=topic=10808.msg131387#msg131387 date=1298395492]
    a;lovoroc


    we translated to be "struggle-mantled". the arabic is "al-labes al-gehad"
  • [quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=10808.msg131410#msg131410 date=1298410225]
    [quote author=Aegyptian link=topic=10808.msg131387#msg131387 date=1298395492]
    a;lovoroc


    we translated to be "struggle-mantled". the arabic is "al-labes al-gehad"



    I was wondering about that. "Athlon" is prize, but I've always thought that "athlos" was perhaps struggle. Anyone versed in Greek can confirm this?
  • [quote author=JG link=topic=10808.msg131418#msg131418 date=1298412332]
    [quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=10808.msg131410#msg131410 date=1298410225]
    [quote author=Aegyptian link=topic=10808.msg131387#msg131387 date=1298395492]
    a;lovoroc


    we translated to be "struggle-mantled". the arabic is "al-labes al-gehad"



    I was wondering about that. "Athlon" is prize, but I've always thought that "athlos" was perhaps struggle. Anyone versed in Greek can confirm this?

    i think it was George, Remenkimi, who told me that a long time ago. i think what he told me is that the term was used to call competitors in like sports competitions. 
  • [quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=10808.msg131419#msg131419 date=1298413158]
    [quote author=JG link=topic=10808.msg131418#msg131418 date=1298412332]
    [quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=10808.msg131410#msg131410 date=1298410225]
    [quote author=Aegyptian link=topic=10808.msg131387#msg131387 date=1298395492]
    a;lovoroc


    we translated to be "struggle-mantled". the arabic is "al-labes al-gehad"



    I was wondering about that. "Athlon" is prize, but I've always thought that "athlos" was perhaps struggle. Anyone versed in Greek can confirm this?

    i think it was George, Remenkimi, who told me that a long time ago. i think what he told me is that the term was used to call competitors in like sports competitions. 


    Well "athlete" is derived from "athlos" which is "competition", so that makes sense.
  • [quote author=kmeka001 link=topic=10808.msg131401#msg131401 date=1298407820]
    I think this is a great idea. Does anyone know the days of the week and the hours (e.g. 1st, 3rd, 6th, etc...) in Coptic? That would be great. Thanks a lot.


    I did not know them, but you made me look for it :P
    Thanks to Mina's great website I found the following words:

    Pioui  @ ]kuriaky - Sunday
    Pi`cnau - Monday
    Pisomt - Tuesday
    Pi`ftou - Wednesday
    Pi`tiou - Thursday
    Picoou - Friday
    Pisasf  @ picabbaton - Saturday

    Pihouit /]houit - the first
    Pimah`cnau /]mah`cnau - the second
    Pimahsomt /]mahsomt - the third

    I think someone else should take over now...
  • [quote author=marian6 link=topic=10808.msg131433#msg131433 date=1298420583]
    Thanks to Mina's great website I found the following words:

    i gave you a site?!
  • [quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=10808.msg131434#msg131434 date=1298421368]
    [quote author=marian6 link=topic=10808.msg131433#msg131433 date=1298420583]
    Thanks to Mina's great website I found the following words:

    i gave you a site?!


    JG's great site ;)
  • What is the meaning of:

    icjen

    and

    `n`hryi qen

    Thanks in advance. I'm trying to enrich my vocabulary by looking at the text of Tasbeha, but I'm having trouble translating these 2 words.

    And is there a difference between:

    afcotten and afcoti `mmon ?
  • icjen means since, and `n`hryi qen means inside.
    Oujai qen `P[C
  • afcotten needs something after it like "from our sins"

    afcoti `mmon can stand on its own.
  • Thanks ^.

    Is it }triac `njyk ebol or }triac etjyk ebol

    and why? At my church they I sometimes hear the first version, but I thought it was the second, since jyk ebol means perfect (refering to the Trinity), and is a relative article (?). Like the e; before ouab
  • Dear Aegyptian,
    I hope what I am going to say is not too complicated for you (as it is for me... hehe)...
    The correct statement is: ]triac ETjyk ebol. The words jyk ebol here come as a descriptive, not as another noun (pretty much like an adjective), and do convert from just a noun to an "adjective" or a descriptive form you use et - e;. If you use however `n - `m it becomes a case of annexion, that is to say, a noun followed by another noun...
    Examples for the former case, as you rightly said:
    pipneuma e;ouab The Spirit THAT IS Holy.
    doxologia eterprepi glorification THAT IS fitting.
    `,rwm etcmarwout fire THAT IS blessed.
    Contrast this with examples for the latter case:
    ]soury `nnoub `nka;aroc the censer gold and pure (still descriptive in English language terms, but annexion in case of Coptic - I guess it is clearer with Arabic grammar similarities).
    `viwt `naga;oc The Father the Good (= the Good Father)
    `;mau `mPencwtyr the mother OF God (a stark case of annexion)
    PS: It is confusing of course, but some structures are rigid and don't change with grammatical formatting - e.g. pipneuma e;ouab can only rarely be found as pipneuma `nouab (so rare that it is close to nil). Also `Viwt etaga;oc is unheard of even though the meaning can be very close to the former example, and vice versa, but it is just the structure of the sentence.
    PPS: With more fluency in Coptic language these things become so normal that you don't think of them, unless you have become so supremely fluent to start writing a Coptic grammar book.
    Oujai qen `P[C
  • I think I'm starting to understand it a bit :) Thanks for explaining it to me, you are a great help. I think the best way to grasp these differences is to read Coptic texts like you said.
  • At the beginning of Tasbeha, should we say /tentino/ or /toounou/ ?
    At my church, we now say tentino, but we should say the imperative form right? Could anyone explain?
  • And how do the Old Bohairic proponents deal with the liturgy. Do you pronounce it like OB (e.g. /awol/) or do you go along with the rest, using GB (/evol/)?
  • [quote author=ophadece link=topic=10808.msg145277#msg145277 date=1317114413]

    The correct statement is: ]triac ETjyk ebol. The words jyk ebol here come as a descriptive, not as another noun (pretty much like an adjective), and do convert from just a noun to an "adjective" or a descriptive form you use et - e;. If you use however `n - `m it becomes a case of annexion, that is to say, a noun followed by another noun...
    Examples for the former case, as you rightly said:
    pipneuma e;ouab The Spirit THAT IS Holy.
    doxologia eterprepi glorification THAT IS fitting.
    `,rwm etcmarwout fire THAT IS blessed.



    I could be wrong but from what I remember, et and  e; are used not for description but for VERBS. All the above examples use qualitative verbs, i.e. they are verbs which reflect the character of the subject.
    jyk `ebol is a verb which means "TO BE perfect"
    `cmarwout means "TO BE blessed"
    ouab means "TO BE holy"
    and so on.

    You could just as easily say, "pi`pneuma e;mosi" - 'the walking spirit'
    Or, "pi`pneuma etrimi" - 'the crying spirit'

    The structure in these examples is no different to pi`pneuma e;ouab - 'the 'being holy' spirit' (the spirit that is doing the action of being holy).

    You could never say '`viwt etaga;oc because et is ONLY for VERBS, whereas aga;oc is an adjective. And likewise, you could never say pi`pneuma `nouab or ]`triac `njyk `ebol because ouab and jyk `ebol are VERBS, not nouns or adjectives.

    In Christ,
    Sam

  • Dear Aegyptian,
    I heard this argument before. Apparently (but I am not 100% sure) twounou is rather more correct as Bohairic Coptic than ten ;ynou - however, for me personally, I don't think it matters much. One is probably more formal (i.e. the former), as may be the case with other differences such as pjin,w ebol and `p,w ebol.
    Dear ebshois_nai_nan,
    I don't think what you are saying is right (but I may be wrong; so I will take a bit of time to read up on that). I guess ouab and jyk ebol are not used as verbs in those conjugations. jwk ebol is a verb as per my understanding. Also piewn e;nyou - e;nou is not a verb. I will elaborate later, after reading up, as I am at work now...
    Oujai qen `P[C
  • epchoise_nai_nan is correct. However, there is one qualifier. The verb has to be the qualitative form, not the intransitive. In other words, you can say et`cmarwout but not et`cmou. The first means "that is being holy", the second doesn't make sense.

    Other qualitative verbs used with et include
    taiyout - be honored
    ;ebiyout - be lowly/be humbled
    tajryout - be powerful/be confirmed
    lalyout  - be painted/be smeared
    Do you see a pattern here? They all end with --yout. These are the common qualitative forms.

    Other qualitative verbs do not have the common ending. These include
    nyou - to be coming. The intransitive verb is noui
    nohem - to be saved. The intransitive verb is the same as the qualitative
    ouab - to be pure. The intransitive verb is also the same as the qualitative (Crum 487b)
    nyh - to be shaken, to be set apart. The intransitive verb is nouh
    lac - to be bruised. The intransitivie verb is lwc
    lobi - to be mad. The intransitive verb is libi

    You get the idea. All qualitative verbs can have et. With the prefix et, a qualitative verb can become a adjective. Intransitive verbs cannot.

    Additionally, borrowing from late Sahidic grammar/early Bohairic grammar, these types of adjectives can become nouns by prefixing it with the proper definite article. So ouab is the qualitative verb, etouab is the adjective, and petouab is the noun meaning "The holy one". Another example that relates to the original question is jyk. jyk is somewhat of an exception because you need to have jyk ebol to be accurate. This is the qualitative of jwk ebol. As the original question asked, the adjective is etjyk and the noun is petjyk (where we get the hymn A Petjyk ebol).

    I hope this helped.
  • [quote author=ophadece link=topic=10808.msg147488#msg147488 date=1321282239]
    Dear Aegyptian,
    I heard this argument before. Apparently (but I am not 100% sure) twounou is rather more correct as Bohairic Coptic than ten ;ynou - however, for me personally, I don't think it matters much. One is probably more formal (i.e. the former), as may be the case with other differences such as pjin,w ebol and `p,w ebol.

    It has nothing to do with formal vs. informal grammar. This verb in question is the exception of imperative mood. All Coptic verbs have one form for the imperative mood that signals a command. This verb has multiple forms.

    There are 5 ways to make an imperative verb in Coptic (expressing a command)
    1. Intransitive verb without any prefixes or suffixes. For example, cwtem `eroi which means "Hear me."
    2. Prefix the intransitive verb with ma and no suffixes. For example, ma`tcaboi which means "Teach me"
    3. Prefix the intransitive verb with a with no suffixes. For example, anau `eroi which means "See me".
    4. Prefix the a noun with ari with no suffixes. This usually occurs with Greek nouns. For example, ari'alin which means "sing"
    5. Use the pre-pronominal and pronominal form of intransitive verb which by definition require a modifying suffix. For example asf which is the pre-pronominal form and it means "Crucify him". The intransitive form is isi, the pre-pronominal form is es--, the pronominal form is as-- and the qualitative form is asi. Most verbs have all 4 forms. The 1st and last forms are not modified by suffixes to denote person and gender, the middle two are and that's what "--" means. Typically the pronominal form is not used as the imperative. It's actually quite rare. And I can only think of 2 cases: as-- and ten--

    For our verb in question, the intransitive is twounou and twoun, the pre-pronominal is ten--, the pronominal is twn-- and there is no qualitative form. So twoun and twounou both are #1 in the list above. And Twoun nishyri `nte piouwini or twounou nisyri `nte piouwini both mean "Arise O children of the light". ten ;enou and twn ;ynou both are #5 in the list above. Both ten;ynou nisyri `nte piouwini and twn;ynou nisyri `nte piouwini, mean arise "Arise O children of the light".

    There are just some verbs that use the pre-pronominal and pronominal verb forms as the imperative (albeit very, very rare). There is no grammatical rule that tells us which verb uses which grammatical rule in the list above to be imperative.

    Conclusion:
    Apparently, there are two intransitive forms (or 2 verbs with the same meaning "arise"):  twoun and twounou and two imperative forms: (Ten-- and Twn-- . I have not seen this for any other verb.

    Does this help?
  • Great posts... thanks very much for the clarification Remnkimi...
    Oujai qen `P[C
  • I apologise I know this is irrelevant, but reading this thread made me so emotional. I wish I could speak coptic instead of arabic..I can't believe we're losing this beautiful language...gradually copts in Egypt are losing their culture all thanks to those "terrorists" that are destroying them.
  • [quote author=mnc_hnn link=topic=10808.msg147763#msg147763 date=1321790142]
    I apologise I know this is irrelevant, but reading this thread made me so emotional. I wish I could speak coptic instead of arabic..I can't believe we're losing this beautiful language...gradually copts in Egypt are losing their culture all thanks to those "terrorists" that are destroying them.

    You're not the only one who gets emotional about this. I've been reading books and articles about Coptic education from the 19th century. Funny how history repeats itself. The Coptic illiteracy in the 19th century made Egypt ripe for British, French and American missionaries that found a life-and-death reason to "enlighten" and "awaken" the Copts. It all ended up with political warfare of Protestants vs. Catholics, British vs. Ottomans, oral tradition vs. written education. It also ended with the creation of Christian sects who used and abused the Copts to fight the Muslims. The only difference of Coptic illiteracy in the 21st century is that the warfare is within the Coptic community and the culture. And again, Coptic is used and abused for personal profit.

    Can you see how emotional I get over this?
  • twounou epsoi-- and ten :ynou epsoi-- are equivalent.

    It is a matter of preference.
  • [quote author=Remnkemi link=topic=10808.msg147504#msg147504 date=1321299289]
    [quote author=ophadece link=topic=10808.msg147488#msg147488 date=1321282239]

    Does this help?


    This definitely helps. I completely forgot to thank you, so, thanks a lot for taking the time to teach me a bit of Coptic here :-)

    I'm having troubles with understanding the grammatical structure of:
    1 Qen `p`asai It means "through your greatness", but what is the exact translation?

    2 Acerhytc de qajwou `nje Mariam (1st hous)

    and something like
    3 na]ma]  If i recall correctly.

    4 Vy`etafsari `ena <ymi nem [email protected] : To Him who smote Egypt in their firstborn. I dont understand 'ena' and why 'nem'

    5 `N`hryi qen pen;ebio aferpenmeu`i `nje `P[oic : Who remembered us in our low estate. Please explain the bolded part.

    6 What is the difference between niben and tyr= When to use which version?

    Thanks in advance. Please anyone, if you can help with anyone of these 5, I would greatly appreciate it.
  • Dear Aegyptian,
    1- Qen `pasai means "through THE greatness" (did you mean Qen pekasai)?. However, the exact meaning is "through the abundance"; "through the multitude", etc.
    2- Literally = "She started before (them) namely Mariam".
    3- "be pleased" - je p[c na]ma] = for the Lord is pleased ...
    4- sari e is some sort of a Coptic phrasal verb, pretty much like the usage of cmou e. na<ymi is the plural of va<ymi, which is I believe (may someone correct me if I am wrong) is another expression for nirem`n<ymi
    5- Firstly, in our low state (not estate). Anyway, the verb is er`vmeui that is er verb forming prefix (on its own in the affirmative form is iri, meaning do or make), and `v meaning "the", and meui meaning memory, or mention - so literaly it is "do the remembrance (or mentioning)". aferpenmeui simply means "He did our remembrance (or mentioning), i.e. remembered us in simple English.
    6- niben means "every" and it comes after the noun. tyr= means all, and it also comes after the (modified) noun, if it needs to be plural it is.
    Oujai Qen `p[c
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