I don't know about Epouro specifically, but this is true! Pretty much every recording I have of Coptic chant (not the modern Arabic taranim, but the old, old stuff) mentions this. Here is a good article about it from the journal "Egypt Today" (April 1997 issue): Preserving Pharaoh's Hymns for Christ. It doesn't mention too many names of individual hymns (I think just the "Kyrie Eleison"), but I have heard from other sources that "Hiten Ni" was originally sung in praise of the Pharaoh. I don't know if that's true or not. Most of the origins of specific Egyptian hymns are lost to history, but one thing is true:
"Coptic Music is Not Arabic, Not Turkish, Not Byzantine & Not Western IT IS PURE ORIGINAL EGYPTIAN MUSIC." -- Ragheb Moftah Habashy, Institute of Coptic Studies Magazine (1958)
Ebouro is known to be a pharaonic tune sung at the enthroning of the king (and maybe his birthdays). Bakatronos is not a pharaonic hymn; it's Syrian I think... Oujai
it seems to me there are about 100 hymns called epouro, can anyone give us a link to the words and tune of the one people mean when they say 'the hymn epouro'? i know only the one from Holy week and the one which is my ring tone, and they are completely different!
[quote author=ophadece link=topic=10644.msg129729#msg129729 date=1296922247] Ebouro is known to be a pharaonic tune sung at the enthroning of the king (and maybe his birthdays). Bakatronos is not a pharaonic hymn; it's Syrian I think... Oujai
Really? I thought Peketronos' tune was 'Shamy' which was the tune used by embalmers in Ancient Egypt - is this just a rumour?
[quote author=mabsoota link=topic=10644.msg129757#msg129757 date=1296931494] it seems to me there are about 100 hymns called epouro, can anyone give us a link to the words and tune of the one people mean when they say 'the hymn epouro'? i know only the one from Holy week and the one which is my ring tone, and they are completely different!
aah, this is the one from the 'great entrance', when the Body and Blood of our Lord process in on feast days, is that right?
it's the same words as the one from Holy week. funny how to european ears this one sounds like a sadder tune and the one from Holy week sounds quite funky and joyful. that's why it took me ages to understand what people meant when they said the 'joyful tune'! now i get it, i can see how this one is joyful, now my ears have got used to coptic music.
the one on the ringtone my friend sent me sounds like this one but speeded up about 5 times, with traditional instruments, not just cymbals and triangle. i deliberately chose a coptic ring tone, so if i forget to switch my phone off during mass, no-one will notice and be distracted!
Two highlights from a lecture given at Oxford by Prof. Ernest Newlandsmith on May 21, 1931 (full text available here):
...seeing that this music is Coptic, that St. Mark-the-Evangelist was the first Patriarch of the Coptic Church, and that there has been an unbroken patriarchal succession from his day until now, it is practically certain that this music not only dates back to the first days of the Christian Era but that it probably dates from a much earlier date. We know that the Coptic Church took over many usages from the ancient Egyptian temple worship such as the surplice and the tonsure; and, in view of the deeply spiritual part that music played in the worship of the ancient Egyptians, it is almost certain that some of this music also must have been carried over.
Perchance in this way a new bond of sympathy may arise between East and West, and-through music appeal-Orient and Occident may at length unite in a new-found glory? In a thousand ways the Orient is becoming alert. And although, unfortunately, she is adopting many of those elements of Western civilisation that she would do far better to avoid, there are still wise men to be found in her midst. For instance, the initiator of all these extensive musical researches in the Near East is Mr. Ragheb Moftah, a highly-cultured Coptic Effendi who is now on a visit to this country. He is a man of very remarkable gifts, a leading spirit in many of the higher reforms of Egypt, and a thinker whose work in the near future may count for much in establishing a happier understanding between Egypt and the people of England. Nor must we fail to mention the indefatigable labours of Mons. Michel- the eminent director of the music at the Coptic Cathedral in Cairo-who, morning after morning, for months on end, would come out to a houseboat on the Nile, and (with Mr. Latif and other of his colleagues), sing for hours on end while I took down the music in MS. On one occasion a singer who was helping in this work questioned the advisability of passing on one very remarkable and extremely complicated hymn, for fear it should be seized upon in Europe and become cheap. Upon which, Mons. Michel was heard to whisper back-"Do not fear, my brother, no one in Europe could possibly sing it!" ;)
@ ebshois nai nan, Shamy refers to either Syrian or Lebanese. That tune is not genuinely pharaonic. As for omonoganees is was written by pope Severus of Antioch, but not sure of the origin of the tune. @ father Peter, I doubt you'll find any evidence of etymology of hymnody, basically because the muslims when they invaded Egypt, they destroyed the Alexandria library that contained most if not all of the Coptic Christian studies and writings, add to that the fact that monks sometimes resorted to burning the hymns books to warm up in the days monasteries received undue amounts of persecution and annihilations. Oujai
I apologize. I did not mean to present those passages as though in answer to your question. Though the professor is some kind of scholar, he's clearly expressing his personal opinion there.
There comes a point, however, when the weight of the opinions of so many scholars in the field of Coptology and related disciplines (such as my own, linguistics) must be considered as forming in itself a kind of consensus. If not exactly standing in the place of tangible evidence (which we may never find), can we not look to their consensus to provide an educated guess?
I have looked at similar questions regarding the Coptic pronunciation reform of the 1850s which, like the current music origins question, is maddeningly obscured by the insurmountable lack of recording technology (which only became available some 20-30 years after the reforms began). Thus we use what we have at our disposal, which in the case of the pronunciation debate is usually sound recordings from the villages where the Greco-Bohairic pronunciation was either not adopted or incompletely adopted. In the case of the ultimate origin of Coptic music, which we must agree is at any rate much older than the 1850s, how much more difficult must it be to pin down an answer with certainty?
And yet no greater a source than Marian Robertson Wilson -- linguist and music editor for the Coptic Encyclopedia (a scholarly source?)-- told Utah's Deseret News newspaper: "Historically, my research has shown that a lot of it likely could have been sung even during Pharaonic Egypt times. It is very ancient. I have traced some even back to the year 300." (source)
So it is relatively uncontroversial to trace it back to Roman Egypt, at least. Earlier is speculation, fine, though my biases lead me to speculate that it is unlikely that melody works differently than language. Therefore, just as Coptic did not spring from the mouths of the Egyptians fully formed as though they'd just been waiting around for Greeks to come in and bestow upon their impoverished system of grunts some commendably European influences (in vocabulary and writing system), is it not likewise reasonable to presume that the earliest attested evidence of discernibly "Coptic" melody is perhaps not the earliest actual appearance?
Funnily enough, the eminent scholar in the field Egyptian and Semitic language research Thomas O. Lambdin was honored in 1987 with a collection of essays presented in his honor, published in anthology format in 1988. Its title? Working With No Data: Semitic and Egyptian Studies Presented to Thomas O Lambdin :)
(Note: I don't at all mean to dismiss your call. I share your question, but begrudgingly acknowledge that there are certain facts of life and history that might never be answered. At least not while we're alive.)
Having presented a paper at St Shenouda Coptic Society in LA titled, "Coptic ethnomusicology, the Current State of Research from 1976", I can tell you with no question in my mind, that
1. There is no musicological, documentary, or recording evidence that Coptic music is older than the 19th century. 2. There is archeological evidence that Coptic music employed percussion insturments that date to the 3rd century. 3. No scholar, with the exception of Ragheb Moftah, claim that Coptic music has a direct link to Pharonic music. There is a great deal of circumstantial evidence that some scholars have enumerated but none that will claim otherwise. 4. Names of tunes and stories that tunes have a Pharonic background is speculation. Egyptian Musicologists have no idea how Pharonic music sounded like. So how what proof do we have that the musical tune of Pekethronos, or any other hymn, is Pharonic
Now my research cannot be considered conclusive. I'm sure there was scholarly research that I could not find. But the general consensus is that Coptic music is ancient but we have no idea how far we can trace it back.
I would like to mention that in all articles about Coptic studies in general, none mention Coptic ethnomusicology. So the field of Coptic ethnomusicology is completely in its infancy and it has only started to grow in 2008/2009. George
Thanks for this honest appraisal of where studies are at.
I am convinced that being honest and rigourus with ourselves and others in all things is the best way forward. If we know where we are then we can consider how to move forward.
The tune for the Paschal Psalm, known in Arabic as "El-Atribby," apparently originated from the Delta town of Atrib (named Athribis by the Greeks, Hwt-hery-ib in the ancient language) which used to be the capital of the 10th Lower Egyptian nome.
That link only gives a summary of archeological evidence of a city of Atrib. It says nothing about music. Just because the Paschal hymn is known as El-Atribby, it doesn't mean the tune is pharonic. There isn't any corroborating evidence that this tune actually came from Atrib either. Again, it's circumstantial evidence at best.
[quote author=Remnkemi link=topic=10644.msg129951#msg129951 date=1297106515] That link only gives a summary of archeological evidence of a city of Atrib. It says nothing about music. Just because the Paschal hymn is known as El-Atribby, it doesn't mean the tune is pharonic. There isn't any corroborating evidence that this tune actually came from Atrib either. Again, it's circumstantial evidence at best.
i am with you on the article and on the fact that there is no evidence of it being pharonic.....but it was always the belief that the tune was call "etriby" because it came from atreep, a city in the delta. actually, i did read it in a book a while ago. It's in Albair's book for sure (i think the introduction of Holy Week) but i did read it in other books....just can't remember where.
[quote author=Remnkemi link=topic=10644.msg129951#msg129951 date=1297106515] That link only gives a summary of archeological evidence of a city of Atrib. It says nothing about music. Just because the Paschal hymn is known as El-Atribby, it doesn't mean the tune is pharonic. There isn't any corroborating evidence that this tune actually came from Atrib either. Again, it's circumstantial evidence at best.
I would tend to agree. But why would they call it "Atribby" if it didn't come from "Atrib"?
We know that there was a rich liturgical tradition in Jerusalem which was the source of much of the liturgical practice of the rest of the Church. And we know when Etheria/Egeria/Sylvia the western pilgrim visited Jerusalem in about 381 AD she saw a very complete round of services with bishops, priests and deacons leading the laity in hymns and psalms and with choral music as well. This worship must all have taken place in Greek.
I would suggest that a similar tradition in Greek was current in Alexandria at the same time. Alexandria was a Greek city in language and culture. The writings of the early Fathers which refer to singing in any manner in the liturgy are all written in Greek, and allude to various hymns in Greek rather than any other language such as Coptic. Of course we also have the prayer book of Bishop Sarapion, a contemporary of St Athanasius, and this is in Greek. There are also papyrus fragments of liturgy from the 6th century which are also in Greek. So we know that Greek was the language of worship in the area of Alexandria. Is it reasonable to propose that much of the music of worship was at least Greek-ified to a greater or lesser extent, and drew inspiration from the other major Greek Christian centres as much as from local tradition? Was it an Egyptian-Greek liturgical music culture?
Is it then possible and likely that as Coptic became more important in worship before and after the Muslim invasion so the local Coptic musical tradition also had a greater influence? Is it possible to imagine that outside of Alexandria there had always been a greater local Coptic musical influence than was found in Greek Alexandria, even when people were using Greek as the language of worship, but especially if using Coptic? And that as the centre of gravity of the Church moved towards the monasteries and away from Alexandria because of persecution so the local Coptic musical culture began to influence the hierarchy more and more and therefore became dominant?
[quote author=DimyanCoptic link=topic=10644.msg129721#msg129721 date=1296918121] i heard that some of the taraneem and coptic hymns that we sing today were sung by the pharoahs and ancient egyptians thousands of years ago, but with different lyrics of course (Example: i heard the ancient egyptians would sing epouro to their gods, same tune but different words).
sounds really cool! is it true? & can anyone name a few songs that fall under this category? i heard epouro, evlogimenos, and a few more.
pfm, antonious dimyan
This is true, but I don't have the context with me right now since it was an old few thousand paged History book. Trust me though when I speak.
The Ancient Egyptians used to elongate notes when singing. In war they'd usually have one 'morale booster' chanter for each Egyptian Brigade of The Military who would sing in elongated notes just as we Copt's do, and this would boost the morale of the troops for battle, that is why Ancient Egypt never ever lost a war until the Persian Invasion.
But they did use elongated notes, the same way we do, and in those notes they varied in pitch like we do.
[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=10644.msg129978#msg129978 date=1297117616] How do we know any of that about the ancient Egyptians?
What sources do you have?
Father Peter
I read it in a history book, and It is also depicted in the Ramses movie showing a chanter singing with elongated notes to boost the morale of the troops going into the war with Kadesh.
[quote author=DimyanCoptic link=topic=10644.msg129994#msg129994 date=1297121968] why is everyone rejecting it because there is no solid evidence? there is no solid evidence that God exists either.
have faith, these are one of those things that i want to believe ;D
pfm.
Hahaha. But the arguments towards God existing are very strong against to arguments of what we are talking about--either with or against.
Comments
"Coptic Music is Not Arabic, Not Turkish, Not Byzantine & Not Western IT IS PURE ORIGINAL EGYPTIAN MUSIC." -- Ragheb Moftah Habashy, Institute of Coptic Studies Magazine (1958)
Oujai
What about Golgatha?
The tune for golgotha was used at the burial of pharaohs
Really?? thats soo cool! I love that hymn. What about other really slow holy week hymns?
Ebouro is known to be a pharaonic tune sung at the enthroning of the king (and maybe his birthdays). Bakatronos is not a pharaonic hymn; it's Syrian I think...
Oujai
Really? I thought Peketronos' tune was 'Shamy' which was the tune used by embalmers in Ancient Egypt - is this just a rumour?
[quote author=mabsoota link=topic=10644.msg129757#msg129757 date=1296931494]
it seems to me there are about 100 hymns called epouro, can anyone give us a link to the words and tune of the one people mean when they say 'the hymn epouro'? i know only the one from Holy week and the one which is my ring tone, and they are completely different!
It's this one I think:
it's the same words as the one from Holy week. funny how to european ears this one sounds like a sadder tune and the one from Holy week sounds quite funky and joyful.
that's why it took me ages to understand what people meant when they said the 'joyful tune'! now i get it, i can see how this one is joyful, now my ears have got used to coptic music.
the one on the ringtone my friend sent me sounds like this one but speeded up about 5 times, with traditional instruments, not just cymbals and triangle. i deliberately chose a coptic ring tone, so if i forget to switch my phone off during mass, no-one will notice and be distracted!
...seeing that this music is Coptic, that St. Mark-the-Evangelist was the first Patriarch of the Coptic Church, and that there has been an unbroken patriarchal succession from his day until now, it is practically certain that this music not only dates back to the first days of the Christian Era but that it probably dates from a much earlier date. We know that the Coptic Church took over many usages from the ancient Egyptian temple worship such as the surplice and the tonsure; and, in view of the deeply spiritual part that music played in the worship of the ancient Egyptians, it is almost certain that some of this music also must have been carried over.
Perchance in this way a new bond of sympathy may arise between East and West, and-through music appeal-Orient and Occident may at length unite in a new-found glory? In a thousand ways the Orient is becoming alert. And although, unfortunately, she is adopting many of those elements of Western civilisation that she would do far better to avoid, there are still wise men to be found in her midst. For instance, the initiator of all these extensive musical researches in the Near East is Mr. Ragheb Moftah, a highly-cultured Coptic Effendi who is now on a visit to this country. He is a man of very remarkable gifts, a leading spirit in many of the higher reforms of Egypt, and a thinker whose work in the near future may count for much in establishing a happier understanding between Egypt and the people of England. Nor must we fail to mention the indefatigable labours of Mons. Michel- the eminent director of the music at the Coptic Cathedral in Cairo-who, morning after morning, for months on end, would come out to a houseboat on the Nile, and (with Mr. Latif and other of his colleagues), sing for hours on end while I took down the music in MS. On one occasion a singer who was helping in this work questioned the advisability of passing on one very remarkable and extremely complicated hymn, for fear it should be seized upon in Europe and become cheap. Upon which, Mons. Michel was heard to whisper back-"Do not fear, my brother, no one in Europe could possibly sing it!" ;)
I wonder if there is real evidence or if this is just a possibility.
Shamy refers to either Syrian or Lebanese. That tune is not genuinely pharaonic. As for omonoganees is was written by pope Severus of Antioch, but not sure of the origin of the tune.
@ father Peter,
I doubt you'll find any evidence of etymology of hymnody, basically because the muslims when they invaded Egypt, they destroyed the Alexandria library that contained most if not all of the Coptic Christian studies and writings, add to that the fact that monks sometimes resorted to burning the hymns books to warm up in the days monasteries received undue amounts of persecution and annihilations.
Oujai
I apologize. I did not mean to present those passages as though in answer to your question. Though the professor is some kind of scholar, he's clearly expressing his personal opinion there.
There comes a point, however, when the weight of the opinions of so many scholars in the field of Coptology and related disciplines (such as my own, linguistics) must be considered as forming in itself a kind of consensus. If not exactly standing in the place of tangible evidence (which we may never find), can we not look to their consensus to provide an educated guess?
I have looked at similar questions regarding the Coptic pronunciation reform of the 1850s which, like the current music origins question, is maddeningly obscured by the insurmountable lack of recording technology (which only became available some 20-30 years after the reforms began). Thus we use what we have at our disposal, which in the case of the pronunciation debate is usually sound recordings from the villages where the Greco-Bohairic pronunciation was either not adopted or incompletely adopted. In the case of the ultimate origin of Coptic music, which we must agree is at any rate much older than the 1850s, how much more difficult must it be to pin down an answer with certainty?
And yet no greater a source than Marian Robertson Wilson -- linguist and music editor for the Coptic Encyclopedia (a scholarly source?)-- told Utah's Deseret News newspaper: "Historically, my research has shown that a lot of it likely could have been sung even during Pharaonic Egypt times. It is very ancient. I have traced some even back to the year 300." (source)
So it is relatively uncontroversial to trace it back to Roman Egypt, at least. Earlier is speculation, fine, though my biases lead me to speculate that it is unlikely that melody works differently than language. Therefore, just as Coptic did not spring from the mouths of the Egyptians fully formed as though they'd just been waiting around for Greeks to come in and bestow upon their impoverished system of grunts some commendably European influences (in vocabulary and writing system), is it not likewise reasonable to presume that the earliest attested evidence of discernibly "Coptic" melody is perhaps not the earliest actual appearance?
Funnily enough, the eminent scholar in the field Egyptian and Semitic language research Thomas O. Lambdin was honored in 1987 with a collection of essays presented in his honor, published in anthology format in 1988. Its title? Working With No Data: Semitic and Egyptian Studies Presented to Thomas O Lambdin :)
(Note: I don't at all mean to dismiss your call. I share your question, but begrudgingly acknowledge that there are certain facts of life and history that might never be answered. At least not while we're alive.)
1. There is no musicological, documentary, or recording evidence that Coptic music is older than the 19th century.
2. There is archeological evidence that Coptic music employed percussion insturments that date to the 3rd century.
3. No scholar, with the exception of Ragheb Moftah, claim that Coptic music has a direct link to Pharonic music. There is a great deal of circumstantial evidence that some scholars have enumerated but none that will claim otherwise.
4. Names of tunes and stories that tunes have a Pharonic background is speculation. Egyptian Musicologists have no idea how Pharonic music sounded like. So how what proof do we have that the musical tune of Pekethronos, or any other hymn, is Pharonic
Now my research cannot be considered conclusive. I'm sure there was scholarly research that I could not find. But the general consensus is that Coptic music is ancient but we have no idea how far we can trace it back.
I would like to mention that in all articles about Coptic studies in general, none mention Coptic ethnomusicology. So the field of Coptic ethnomusicology is completely in its infancy and it has only started to grow in 2008/2009.
George
Thanks for this honest appraisal of where studies are at.
I am convinced that being honest and rigourus with ourselves and others in all things is the best way forward. If we know where we are then we can consider how to move forward.
Father Peter
http://egyptsites.wordpress.com/2009/03/02/tell-atrib/
That link only gives a summary of archeological evidence of a city of Atrib. It says nothing about music. Just because the Paschal hymn is known as El-Atribby, it doesn't mean the tune is pharonic. There isn't any corroborating evidence that this tune actually came from Atrib either. Again, it's circumstantial evidence at best.
i am with you on the article and on the fact that there is no evidence of it being pharonic.....but it was always the belief that the tune was call "etriby" because it came from atreep, a city in the delta. actually, i did read it in a book a while ago. It's in Albair's book for sure (i think the introduction of Holy Week) but i did read it in other books....just can't remember where.
That link only gives a summary of archeological evidence of a city of Atrib. It says nothing about music. Just because the Paschal hymn is known as El-Atribby, it doesn't mean the tune is pharonic. There isn't any corroborating evidence that this tune actually came from Atrib either. Again, it's circumstantial evidence at best.
I would tend to agree. But why would they call it "Atribby" if it didn't come from "Atrib"?
But yeah, it still isn't any solid proof.
We know that there was a rich liturgical tradition in Jerusalem which was the source of much of the liturgical practice of the rest of the Church. And we know when Etheria/Egeria/Sylvia the western pilgrim visited Jerusalem in about 381 AD she saw a very complete round of services with bishops, priests and deacons leading the laity in hymns and psalms and with choral music as well. This worship must all have taken place in Greek.
I would suggest that a similar tradition in Greek was current in Alexandria at the same time. Alexandria was a Greek city in language and culture. The writings of the early Fathers which refer to singing in any manner in the liturgy are all written in Greek, and allude to various hymns in Greek rather than any other language such as Coptic. Of course we also have the prayer book of Bishop Sarapion, a contemporary of St Athanasius, and this is in Greek. There are also papyrus fragments of liturgy from the 6th century which are also in Greek. So we know that Greek was the language of worship in the area of Alexandria. Is it reasonable to propose that much of the music of worship was at least Greek-ified to a greater or lesser extent, and drew inspiration from the other major Greek Christian centres as much as from local tradition? Was it an Egyptian-Greek liturgical music culture?
Is it then possible and likely that as Coptic became more important in worship before and after the Muslim invasion so the local Coptic musical tradition also had a greater influence? Is it possible to imagine that outside of Alexandria there had always been a greater local Coptic musical influence than was found in Greek Alexandria, even when people were using Greek as the language of worship, but especially if using Coptic? And that as the centre of gravity of the Church moved towards the monasteries and away from Alexandria because of persecution so the local Coptic musical culture began to influence the hierarchy more and more and therefore became dominant?
Is this possible or likely?
i heard that some of the taraneem and coptic hymns that we sing today were sung by the pharoahs and ancient egyptians thousands of years ago, but with different lyrics of course (Example: i heard the ancient egyptians would sing epouro to their gods, same tune but different words).
sounds really cool! is it true?
& can anyone name a few songs that fall under this category? i heard epouro, evlogimenos, and a few more.
pfm, antonious dimyan
This is true, but I don't have the context with me right now since it was an old few thousand paged History book. Trust me though when I speak.
The Ancient Egyptians used to elongate notes when singing. In war they'd usually have one 'morale booster' chanter for each Egyptian Brigade of The Military who would sing in elongated notes just as we Copt's do, and this would boost the morale of the troops for battle, that is why Ancient Egypt never ever lost a war until the Persian Invasion.
But they did use elongated notes, the same way we do, and in those notes they varied in pitch like we do.
What sources do you have?
Father Peter
How do we know any of that about the ancient Egyptians?
What sources do you have?
Father Peter
I read it in a history book, and It is also depicted in the Ramses movie showing a chanter singing with elongated notes to boost the morale of the troops going into the war with Kadesh.
why is everyone rejecting it because there is no solid evidence?
there is no solid evidence that God exists either.
have faith, these are one of those things that i want to believe ;D
pfm.
Hahaha. But the arguments towards God existing are very strong against to arguments of what we are talking about--either with or against.