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The Trinity a contradiction?

jfarag92jfarag92
edited December 1969 in Faith Issues
Hello,
recently as i have been trying to substantiate my faith; i have been basically trying to doubt and question everything in order to substantiate  it, and one of the basic doubts or questions, and just general questions, i have is the legitimacy of the trinity.
basically how the three separate parts can be one, not three distinct parts. and then go around and say there is one distinct god and be an ardently monotheistic religion.
here are a few of the "problems" i have with it which would be nice if you could clarify them and elaborate on the topic in general
-we pray to the the Father and the Son as if they are separate, and talk about them as if they are different
-one of the more central ones i have is when Jesus was on earth, he prayed to the Father and the Father was sad etc etc, which makes it seem as if they are in fact distinct parts.  also how could they separate into the heaven and earth with out being separate. 

I would like it if you did not limit your responses to just these, they are just starting points.

Comments

  • anba bolaanba bola
    They are distinct but yet one. If we are to take the sun, which can be used as a way to understand the Trinity, we see that there are three basic components.

    There is the body of the sun, (ie the body itself, I couldn't think of a better way of putting this), the heat that proceeds from it, and the light that proceeds from it (still talking about the sun itself). The heat is not the light, and neither is the "body" the same as the heat. There are three things and yet one sun. Another example is that of a tree. There are the roots, that which is seen, and the life of the tree, and yet one tree.

    The Church fathers said that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit were three persons, one in essence. The Father is not the same person as the Son, nor as the Holy Spirit.

    -one of the more central ones i have is when Jesus was on earth, he prayed to the Father and the Father was sad etc etc, which makes it seem as if they are in fact distinct parts.  also how could they separate into the heaven and earth with out being separate.

    They didn't separate into heaven and Earth. John 14:11 says "Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me;"
    Furthermore God is omnipresent. In John 3:13 Christ also says ""No one has ascended to heaven but he who came down from heaven that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven". We see that both the Father and the Son are omnipresent so they were no way separate.

    For more I recommended reading "The Meaning of the Holy Trinity" by Fr. Abraam Sleman here: http://www.orthodoxebooks.org/node/97

    It is a considerably short read: only 28 pages (with a large font), and is very easy to understand.


    Also I responded to your eye for an eye thread.

    Please pray for me.
  • joseph.vandenbrinkjoseph.vandenbrink
    One word: Hypostasis. 

    The Father, Son, and Spirit are of the same essence, each separate "persons" (note the quotations), but one Essence.  Let's look at the Creed:

    "I believe in One God:"  This is something the Muslims even took from Christians: "Ash-Haddu ann' laa ilahaa ila Allah," I testify there is not god but God.  There is One God, unified as one God in Trinity. 

    "...the Father Almighty:" God the Father of Heaven and Earth, the Unoriginate, our Father and Father of Christ Jesus Who is from everlasting. 

    "Jesus Christ, the Son of God: the Only-Begotten before all worlds:" Jesus is the Word of God made flesh (St. John's Gospel has a wonderful explanation in the first 18 verses) and is eternally begotten, meaning He is also of one essence with the Father, sharing all things with Him in things divine.  Jesus Christ is 100% God and 100%: two very distinct and separate natures but because of the perfection of the coexistence of these distinct and separate natures, they are the perfect nature of the God-Man Jesus Christ.  ***His divine nature did NOT absorb His human nature, as some EO Christians accuse Copts of believing, and I apologize for their ignorance***

    "...the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Giver of Life, who proceedeth from the Father:" the Holy Spirit is the living and manifest "breath" of God, not an incomplete essence, but is the fulness of the divine and perfect reality of the command and life of God.  The Holy Spirit "proceedeth from the Father," as Jesus Christ teaches us in John 14, and demonstrates to us at the end of the Gospel of St. John as He breathes on His disciples and says, "receive, ye, the Holy Spirit," thus showing us that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father through the Son. 

    The Trinity is beautiful and mysterious synergy of God, as manifest in Himself through His Saints.  To use a terrible example of this (and this is not to be used to base doctrine on, but is only an illustration), let's look at H20 (commonly known as "water").  H20 has three states: solid, liquid, and gas.  Each state is separate and distinct from the others, but at the same time is identical and is the same thing as the other two because of its molecular structure.  Water vapour, liquid water, and ice are the exact same thing (and, granted only in some extreme and often staged circumstances, can exist all three at the same time), yet there is a distinct difference in how that molecular structure is manifest in various circumstances.  ***CAUTION*** THE HOLY TRINITY DOES NOT MANIFEST ITSELF DIFFERENTLY IN DIFFERENT CIRCUMSTANCES: THIS IS CALLED SABALLIANSIM AND WAS CONDEMNED BY THE HOLY FATHERS OF THE CHURCH (also called "Modalism").  The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit all share in creation, absolution, direction, salvation, redemption, etc, and therefore cannot be slated as, "the Father is the Creator, the Son is the Redeemer, and the Holy Spirit is the Sanctifier," because all three do the same thing TOGETHER.  Big word, yet again: HYPOSTASIS. 

    In other words, look at the hymn of Theophany:

    "When Thou, O Lord, was baptized in the Jordan, the worship of the Trinity was made manifest.  For voice of the Father bore witness to Thee and called Thee His beloved Son.  And the Spirit, in the form of a dove, confirmed the truthfulness of His word.  O Christ, our God Who hast revealed Thyself and hast enlightened the world, glory to Thee!"
  • RemnkemiRemnkemi
    [quote author=joseph.vandenbrink link=topic=10342.msg126346#msg126346 date=1294213430]
    H20 has three states: solid, liquid, and gas.  Each state is separate and distinct from the others, but at the same time is identical and is the same thing as the other two because of its molecular structure.  Water vapour, liquid water, and ice are the exact same thing (and, granted only in some extreme and often staged circumstances, can exist all three at the same time), yet there is a distinct difference in how that molecular structure is manifest in various circumstances.  ***CAUTION*** THE HOLY TRINITY DOES NOT MANIFEST ITSELF DIFFERENTLY IN DIFFERENT CIRCUMSTANCES: THIS IS CALLED SABALLIANSIM AND WAS CONDEMNED BY THE HOLY FATHERS OF THE CHURCH (also called "Modalism"). 

    If you saw Bill Maher's 2008 movie, Religulous, you may recall a scene where Bill Maher went to Orlando's "The Holyland Experience", a Christian amusement center. He interviewed the character acting as Jesus and asked him to describe the Trinity. And guess what. The actor described the H20 theory that Joseph mentioned above. This is how the devil works: In the movie, it appeared as the Saballism heresy was being explained by Jesus Christ himself!! And for a moment, he convinced Bill Maher that Trinity might be understood this way. Isn't it amazing how history and the devil's attacks repeat in the most subtle and deceptive ways?!!!

  • Cyril97Cyril97
    In the same way you have a spirit, a mind, and a body, (three different things) iy makes you as a being.
    The trinity is the same you have the father, the son and the holy spirit, one god.
    You have god the father,
                god the son,
                god the holy spirit.
    Those are all components for the one God.
    This is what a priest from my church said in a sermon.
    It is not recorded though. Sorry.
    God bless, Pray for me,
    Cyril 
  • Meena_AmeenMeena_Ameen
    [quote author=Cyril97 link=topic=10342.msg127301#msg127301 date=1295368025]
    In the same way you have a spirit, a mind, and a body, (three different things) iy makes you as a being.
    The trinity is the same you have the father, the son and the holy spirit, one god.
    You have god the father,
                 god the son,
                 god the holy spirit.
    Those are all components for the one God.
    This is what a priest from my church said in a sermon.
    It is not recorded though. Sorry.
    God bless, Pray for me,
    Cyril 


    I dont think we would say "god the father, god the son, god the holy spirit". That would imply 3 Gods, rather God, the father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, 1 God, 3 distinct persons, cannot be separated. Like the Sun, produces heat and light, you cant separate the heat from the light, yet they are 2 distinct properties of the ONE Sun. There is an amazing debate by 2 trinitarians and 2 non trinitarians that talk about the Holy Trinity, each member has a Ph.D in the field.. heres part 1 (there are about 20 parts to it)..



  • Cyril97Cyril97
    Infact, all abounas in my church say it that way, when the come across a question like that.
    The way I see it, it is not implying 3 DIFFERENT God but a kind of Part1, 2, 3.
    This just came in my mind but it works... I think:
    Think of the Trinity as a movie or a book.
    You have a begininig, middle, and an end (inro, developpement, conlusion)
    They are all a part of one book, movie or whatever but and the end, it ia all on part.
    You may disagree by saying that this is wrong because in middle is obviously better than the intro or conclusion,
    but this is a more general metaphor.
    God bless, Pray for me, I hope this helps,
    Cyril
  • joseph.vandenbrinkjoseph.vandenbrink
    Hello, it's been a while since I was here.  I wanted to address Remnkemi and his response to what I said, and it is true that the H20 description is a false one, but like I said, this is a grossly incomplete illustration.  I was in no way suggesting that God manifests Himself in three different ways, but that He is of one substance in three persons who are distinct persons of the One Holy Trinity.  Hence, why exploring the doctrine of the Trinity is so very dangerous. 

    And besides, I in no way consider myself authoritative in dogmatic theology. 

    Forgive me, my Brothers and Sisters.
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