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Not sure if I care anymore

IoannesIoannes
edited December 1969 in Faith Issues
Hi all. I do not know why I am posting this really, I guess thought I would let you know how I am doing. I dont really care anymore, I guess that means truly am Coptic LOL.

Comments

  • George_Mina_Awad
    Hehe. There are a number of ways that can be interpreted.

    And it's funny, cause I was literally about to post a thread asking what the heck happened to you.
  • ilovesaintmarkilovesaintmark
    Where have you been?

    I was thinking about sending out an electronic bloodhound, i.e., geomike to find you.

    God is with you--always; and He is with us--always.
  • IoannesIoannes
    I have stopped caring to be honest. I still believe God, I doubt I could ever reject Him. But what I see is fake and it sickens me. I made it very clear that I was having a crisis, to my FOC and some Deacons I look up to, and nobody did anything. I never got a call or anything. My wife got a text from Abouna saying "i miss you guys". This again shows just how incapable and ill prepared the church is. I mean seriously I see people from church in the store and they ignore me like they never seen me.

    I dont know, I am not able to deal with this. Because I was never offered any kind of class or teaching I had to study on my own, which is fine. But then I am told what I am saying or doing is wrong, when it is what I have learned through study on my own because I have HAD to. So imagine just how confused I am. I have no idea what to believe, be, or do because it either conflicts with the early church fathers, and some contemporary ones, or those clergy in our church. I figured, what is the point anymore? Abouna will tell me that he wants to come over and talk with me every week but never makes an attempt to. He never returns calls or texts so I give up. I am constantly told to be patient, or that I am "trying to save the world", etc.

    This is the coptic church, if your not Coptic you can come along for the ride, but dont expect anyone to make room or show you anything. I mean seriously I am utterly confused and not a soul seems to want to correct it, no matter how many times I ask. So screw it why should I care, I am obviously not worth the time nor the effort.

    So now, if I do decide to continue posting, my posts will have a much more unique view and I hope you are ALL prepared to defend your precious church.
  • geomike
    Ioannes, I am sorry you feel this way, but just because the people in your church do this, doesn't mean the Coptic Orthodox church does this. Stay strong and just remember that God is all you need, "If someone has hated you, know that they have hated Me first". Don't judge the religion by the people, judge it by its doctrines and teachings. I will pray for you. May God have mercy.
  • IoannesIoannes
    [quote author=geomike link=topic=10216.msg124918#msg124918 date=1292748942]
    Ioannes, I am sorry you feel this way, but just because the people in your church do this, doesn't mean the Coptic Orthodox church does this. Stay strong and just remember that God is all you need, "If someone has hated you, know that they have hated Me first". Don't judge the religion by the people, judge it by its doctrines and teachings. I will pray for you. May God have mercy.


    What am I supposed to think? I learn something buy studying, then am told, sometimes, that it is incorrect, am I NOT to feel conflicted? I dont know if I can disagree with the clergy or things they say. I mean it has been brewing for a while. This damn atheist at church keeps spouting his nonsense and yet I am lying, according to Abouna, because why would an atheist come to church? I mean there are so many things and I bring them up....and nothing. Its not like Abouna or some of the other deacons are in the dark about my feelings. The worst part of it is this: the first thing they ask is "Are you taking your medicine?" what an insult!!! Its like they are searching for any reason to write me off!

    Geomike since you seem to have all the answers what do you suggest I do?
  • George_Mina_Awad
    Before you give up on the Coptic Church just yet, I would (if possible) find a different church to attend. Don't tell them that you're manic depressive, because given how people can be, that may only cause problems. See if your experience is the norm, or the exception to the rule, cause I think it's absolutely sad that people have been that terrible to the point where you don't care anymore.
  • ophadeceophadece
    Dear Ioannes,
    Yes it is really hard to get promises from people especially the trustworthy ones as in our church and then they end up going back on them. However, you should always think of yourself only and your family of course, and not depend on others to fulfill their promises, which yes is hard, but achievable. Put your trust in God and in God alone and if you're being criticised for things you taught yourself before, step back to argue at another time when your spirit's strength comes back and not remain that lukewarm. Pray, pray, and pray and mention us as well, and God who moved mountains will help you get over this period. God bless you, and yes keep posting your ideas here for debate. Whether right or wrong we all learn from each other
  • dzheremi
    I can relate to this on some level, having recently (in the last 1.5-2 years) gotten out of what I would call a very dysfunctional relationship with the Roman Catholic Church, which often felt just the same as you are describing, Ioannes. I would go to my confessor and ask him about this or that aspect of what the church was teaching or practicing, and he would say "Well, you know, there is not just the Roman Catholic Church. If you want something more reverent (or without a certain practice), you can go to the Byzantine Catholic church in the next town, or visit the monastery on the coast." It seemed like he would say anything to avoid dealing with my questions. Just "go somewhere else if you don't like it here", or "yes, this situation you are describing is wrong, but not all of our churches are like that." It was horribly frustrating and disheartening. Of course, I eventually left after I realized that at the root of my problems was the fact that I simply didn't see the RCC as teaching the correct faith or doctrine, but it started with the kind of unhelpful treatment I experienced on many occasions at the hands of clergy.

    I wish I had some kind of answer for you, but unfortunately not only am I nobody on these forums, but I'm also a non-Orthodox/non-Copt, so it is not my place to speculate how much your experience might be typical of the Coptic Orthodox Church. I just wanted you to know that you are not alone in feeling this way. My only suggestion would be to look at the roots of the Church and its faith: Its doctrine. Do you find something you cannot agree with there? If not, then is it mostly social treatment from your church that is hurting you? If so, I would suggest like others have suggested that you try to find a different church to attend.

    HH Pope Shenouda III once gave a sermon on coming back to God in prayer. Perhaps you've heard it. It is available in two parts with English translation here and here. One thing that strikes me whenever I watch it (and I watch it quite often, since I am completely alone in my journey to Orthodoxy, so I need a lot of help and strengthening) is the part about needing to hold on to God and tell Him that you will not leave Him until you get what you need from Him. This is true prayer. And since you have said that you do not want to leave God, this seems like it would fit your situation.
  • JoshuaaJoshuaa
    HI Ioannes,
                  I,m sure people do really care. I remember you posting I reply once about the answer being love, and of course that is our new covenant. But I think when your in Church that it's a good time to find the answer to why your manic, then you wouldn't have the depression protecting the manic side. You need to grow and GOD wants you to grow as well. This is part of the relationship we have with him.
                          GOD bless you.
  • IoannesIoannes
    I just talked to one of the main Deacons at our church, he is also aware of what I am going through. He comforts me quite a bit. He told me to get a spiritual father. I think, after talking with him, that the culture barrier is what makes things so difficult and causes the tension between me and others. The good thing is I know I am not crazy atleast, he does agree with me on many points. I still need to get some of this anger I have towards Egyptians out of my system.
  • anba bolaanba bola
    Ioannes, it is great to "see" you again. I was just about to start a thread asking where you were.

    I find that it is often easier to give advice then to act upon it when you get into that situation. I find that things seem more complicated if I'm in a situation, then when I'm looking at it from the outside.

    I was in the middle of writing this post, when I checked my email and found this as the daily verse sent to me:

    Fear not, for I am with you; Be not dismayed,
    for I am your God. I will strengthen you,
    yes, I will help you, I will uphold you with
    My righteous right hand.’
    (Isa 41: 10)

    and it came with a commentary of St. John Chrysostom:

    That there is no one stronger than him
    who enjoys the heavenly help;
    and no one weaker than him
    who is deprived of it.
    (St. John Chrysostom)


    If you can go to a different church, I'd say that you should. However, if you can't, know that whatever you bear thankfully you'll receive a reward in heaven that far outweighs what you go through here. Know that Christ is with you at all times. I know that these can pass off as just nice words, but honestly when I sit down and think about what it means for Christ to be with me, it dwarfs the problems I have.

    I don't think the problem is with the Coptic Church itself, but perhaps just this congregation.

    Please pray for me, and I will keep you in my prayers.
  • IoannesIoannes
    Anba Bola, I think you are right. My dearest brother and one of the main deacons told me the same thing. Many of the people are not really Christian or as he said are really converted, they may be baptized but not truly converted. They complain constantly about this and that, and doing things but are never there when we do them upon their request. He advised me to keep patient and focus on my and my families salvation. He also helped me understand how to get things done properly. It really is sad to see this, this is one of several reasons for me leaving the protestant church, the superficiality of its adherants. But then again not all of them are fake, but it seems that many of them really do love money and things of that nature, and it bothers me.
  • George_Mina_Awad
    [quote author=Ioannes link=topic=10216.msg124946#msg124946 date=1292815865]
    I still need to get some of this anger I have towards Egyptians out of my system.


    Heh, even I tend to struggle with that one from time to time. lol
  • IoannesIoannes
    [quote author=George_Mina_Awad link=topic=10216.msg125002#msg125002 date=1292876748]
    [quote author=Ioannes link=topic=10216.msg124946#msg124946 date=1292815865]
    I still need to get some of this anger I have towards Egyptians out of my system.


    Heh, even I tend to struggle with that one from time to time. lol


    LOL! Life is just sucky right now, really sucky.
  • mabsootamabsoota
    i want to add that i agree with all this good advice.
    especially i like dzheremi's advice, brother, you are a very valuable member of this forum and i am always pleased to see your advice. it's cool and it's orthodox. (that's a compliment, though not all my protestant friends realise that!)
    ioannes, hang out with the people u know are sincere, that will help u keep things in perspective.
    nearly everyone (i.e. except me and one white coptic friend) who hangs out with egyptians/sudanese finds the cultural barrier difficult.
    i always had trouble fitting in with my own culture for various reasons, maybe that's why i am at home in the north african culture!
    but, even if you don't think you fit in, you are a very important brother and we value you a lot  :)
  • peterfarringtonpeterfarrington
    Try to find those things for which you can give thanks.

    The Agpeya instructs us:

    O Master, Lord, God the Almighty, the Father of our Lord, God and Savior, Jesus Christ, we thank You for every condition, concerning every condition, and in every condition, for You have covered us, helped us, guarded us, accepted us unto You, spared us, supported us, and brought us to this hour.

    The Scripture instructs us:

    Philippians 4:4  Rejoice in the Lord alway: and again I say, Rejoice.


    and

    1 Thessalonians 5:16-19  Rejoice evermore. Pray without ceasing. In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you. Quench not the Spirit.

    I know this is not easy. It has not been easy in my own life which has often been very difficult. But the will of God for you, and for me, and for us all, is that we give thanks in everything. Try to find those many things, sometimes apparently small, which we should thank God for each day. For life, for a roof very our heads, for food to eat, for water to drink etc etc etc and for life and salvation.

    I do not often encourage the use of Protestants songs, but here is one I learned as a child which has stayed with me.

    When upon life's billows you are tempest tossed,
    When you are discouraged, thinking all is lost,
    Count your many blessings, name them one by one,
    And it will surprise you what the Lord hath done.

    (Refrain)
    Count your blessings, name them one by one,
    Count your blessings, see what God hath done!
    Count your blessings, name them one by one,
    Count your many blessings, see what God hath done!

    Are you ever burdened with a load of care?
    Does the cross seem heavy you are called to bear?
    Count your many blessings, every doubt will fly,
    And you will keep singing as the days go by.

    So, amid the conflict whether great or small,
    Do not be disheartened, God is over all;
    Count your many blessings, angels will attend,
    Help and comfort give you to your journey's end.

    I do not suggest that we start singing this hymn, but the words are relevant and true. The sentiment is sound. It has been my experience in many very dark times when all seemed lost.

    Let me add one more verse I have been reminding my own congregation of:

    Jeremiah 29:11 For I know the plans I have for you," declares the LORD, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.

    Father Peter
  • George_Mina_Awad
    [quote author=Ioannes link=topic=10216.msg125005#msg125005 date=1292877536]
    [quote author=George_Mina_Awad link=topic=10216.msg125002#msg125002 date=1292876748]
    [quote author=Ioannes link=topic=10216.msg124946#msg124946 date=1292815865]
    I still need to get some of this anger I have towards Egyptians out of my system.


    Heh, even I tend to struggle with that one from time to time. lol


    LOL! Life is just sucky right now, really sucky.


    I was hardly joking, too. And I'm sorry to hear that; you're in my prayers.
  • CopticSoldierCopticSoldier
    Hi Ioannes,

    How are you?

    I can imagine how hard this must be for you, I serve at a mission church based in Melbourne and I have served in different Coptic missions in Fiji.

    I think that one of things that I know from my own personal experience and the experience of others in your situation is that the devil loves to play on the 'culture gap' as a reason to keep people out of church.

    I'm not sure if you're familiar with C.S.Lewis's the screwtape letters, its a little bit like the temptations the devils were talking about when they wanted the church to seem like such a boring, onerous and inaccessible place and the kinds of tricks the devil used to convince the individual they were tempting.  The cultural differences add a new dimension to the kinds of temptations which come our way which makes things so much harder.

    Orthodox churches are sometimes a little like culture clubs and very often people are born into it with scant regard for the sanctity and the value of the baptism they received.  However this is the last I will say about this because of the aforementioned points - whatever I do say I am certain the devil will twist and you will not receive peace by confronting this directly.

    What I will say however that does have the power to give you peace is the serenity prayer:

    God, grant me the serenity
    To accept the things I cannot change;
    Courage to change the things I can;
    And wisdom to know the difference.

    If the Orthodox Church is the fullness of the Truth you have come to know it, not as a privilege by birth but by virtue of the guiding hand of God.

    If God has directed you this far He will also sustain you on the path He is laying out before you.  God is the director of your salvation and I am certain that whatever stands in your way can be resolved by Him.  If you simply require require peace this is not something God has any insufficiency or lack of, I would recommend you approach this like any other temptation in front of the throne of Christ.

    It will be very challenging but if you can learn to accept the people around you as they are and for what they are, they will no longer be a distraction to you.

    God bless,

    LiD
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