Titles of Saint Mark

It is widely known that Saint Mark is given the title Abba in hymns. HOWEVER, i never really liked this idea. when i asked about it i never got a straight answer and got the feeling that the people who say it don't know what it means. After some research into it, i found that the title 'abba' is specifically designated to monks, ascetics, and hermits (or anyone in that field). this makes sense when you consider the popes title in coptic hymns (PAPA ABBA SHENOUDA). can someone correct me if i'm wrong? please?

Comments

  • Abba is a Syriac word meaning 'father'. It was used in Rabbinical circles.

    The Coptic Church may have tended to use it in certain situations rather than others, but originally it could have been used, I believe, in any situation where there was a relationship of spiritual parenthood. We have many of the saying of the Desert Abbas and Ammas, but this does not seem to me to show that it was not used of priests in the cities and towns as well, just that we do not have the same collections of narratives about secular clergy.

    It is similar to the word 'papa' and 'pope' which were also used generally of all in positions of spiritual fatherhood before becoming limited.

    Father Peter
  • Saint Mark IS the first Patriarch of the Coptic Church...i don't see the problem with adding the title "Abba" to his name......it is definitely worth mention that in most hymns and praises texts, the word Abba is not used whenever "[coptic]Markoc pi`poctoloc[/coptic]" is said and that makes since because it's an extra word to deal with when chanting.....but many cantors began to use it. Mainly, Cantor/Archdeacon Fahim, Pope Kerrelos VI deacon. He's actually the only one who recorded the hetinni for saint Mark with the addition of "Abba."
  • i also realised that we say it for st mina, and he was given a crown for his monasticism.
  • Was it also added during the time of Pope Kyrillos out of his devotion to St Mina?
  • [quote author=coptic_deacon link=topic=10042.msg122718#msg122718 date=1290637244]
    i also realised that we say it for st mina, and he was given a crown for his monasticism.

    welll the verse uses [coptic]Abba Myna `nte Nivaiat[/coptic]
    Faiat=Vaiat=Bayad, was the place around Mariout, where the monastery is now. Actually some psalmodies translate "Abba Mina of Fayat" (translation of the above) to be, in arabic, Mina El-Mariouti, translated to be Mina of Mariout.

    [quote author=Father Peter link=topic=10042.msg122720#msg122720 date=1290638134]
    Was it also added during the time of Pope Kyrillos out of his devotion to St Mina?

    that is possible but i doubt it. i think that would require some searching on when was the phrase above written in books. Actually, now that i think about it, i think the reason for that is the body of Saint Mina was found in the "El-madina El-rokhameya El-athareyya"=Ancient city of marble, also in the area of mariout.
  • I don't know about you guys but in my "kholagy", it saiys [coptic]apa Mina `nte niVaiat[/coptic] or
    [coptic]Bi agioc apa Mina[/coptic]. I asked one of my church leader an d he told me that
    the word [coptic]apa[/coptic] is used to signify holy, blessed or saint. the english translation is:
    [coptic]Bi agioc apa Mina[/coptic]-- The holy saint Mina.
    Please correct me if I am wrong but this is what I hae been taught
  • [quote author=Cyril97 link=topic=10042.msg122725#msg122725 date=1290639691]
    I don't know about you guys but in my "kholagy", it saiys [coptic]apa Mina `nte niVaiat[/coptic] or
    [coptic]Bi agioc apa Mina[/coptic]. I asked one of my church leader an d he told me that
    the word [coptic]apa[/coptic] is used to signify holy, blessed or saint. the english translation is:
    [coptic]Bi agioc apa Mina[/coptic]-- The holy saint Mina.
    Please correct me if I am wrong but this is what I hae been taught

    Sorry to tell you, but that is not true. [coptic]`apa[/coptic] = [coptic]abba[/coptic]=father as Fr. Peter said.
    When you say Mar-mina in arabic, that, being one word--مارمينا-- means "Saint Mina"....same to all other saint names in arabic.
    now most old translations in english of the coptic, people didn't that they can use the word "Abba" as an english word. So mostly they try to replace it with anything else that fits.

    About the title for Saint Mina in general, it is best to give an example to clarify:
    One psalmody, in it are 2 doxologies of Saint Mina. One doxology end in "Pray to the Lord...Abba Mina of Fayat". The other doxology end in "Pray to the Lord...the saint Abba Mina."

    So it's just a matter of when to use the title.....btw, today is his feast. :) :)
  • [quote author=minagir link=topic=10042.msg122727#msg122727 date=1290640220]
    [quote author=Cyril97 link=topic=10042.msg122725#msg122725 date=1290639691]
    I don't know about you guys but in my "kholagy", it saiys [coptic]apa Mina `nte niVaiat[/coptic] or
    [coptic]Bi agioc apa Mina[/coptic]. I asked one of my church leader an d he told me that
    the word [coptic]apa[/coptic] is used to signify holy, blessed or saint. the english translation is:
    [coptic]Bi agioc apa Mina[/coptic]-- The holy saint Mina.
    Please correct me if I am wrong but this is what I hae been taught

    Sorry to tell you, but that is not true. [coptic]`apa[/coptic] = [coptic]abba[/coptic]=father as Fr. Peter said.
    When you say Mar-mina in arabic, that, being one word--مارمينا-- means "Saint Mina"....same to all other saint names in arabic.
    now most old translations in english of the coptic, people didn't that they can use the word "Abba" as an english word. So mostly they try to replace it with anything else that fits.

    About the title for Saint Mina in general, it is best to give an example to clarify:
    One psalmody, in it are 2 doxologies of Saint Mina. One doxology end in "Pray to the Lord...Abba Mina of Fayat". The other doxology end in "Pray to the Lord...the saint Abba Mina."

    So it's just a matter of when to use the title.....btw, today is his feast. :) :)


    I don't really get it.
    Is it right or wrong?
    God bless Saint Mina...gir
    Pray for me,
    Cyril
  • [quote author=Cyril97 link=topic=10042.msg122730#msg122730 date=1290640574]
    I don't really get it.
    Is it right or wrong?
    Wrong in translation....that's all i'll say.

    God bless Saint Mina...gir

    you have a couple of extra latter there at the end....:D
  • Actually, [coptic]apa[/coptic] does not mean father(per se in this contact). You could take in that manner but its really a title given to someone in high regard or honor such as this great saint. Thats why in translations(even in arabic) either [coptic]apa[/coptic] or [coptic]Abba[/coptic] is not translated as father. If we were to say father we would be saying [coptic]Iwt[/coptic] or [coptic]Peniwt[/coptic]. If you think of the kiahk psali for st anthony, the response is peniot abba antonious. The key word is peniot when depicting the word father.

    God Bless
  • Shall I say I told you so...Minagir
    @jydeacon
    Then what does [coptic]Abba[/coptic] mean?
  • But we do know that in Aramaic, the source of this word, Abba does mean Father.

    Now it may well be that at later periods perhaps the Copts chose to use this loan word as an honoric, but I don't get that sense at all in the normal use. We speak of the Desert Fathers because they are all called Abba, just as the Desert Mothers are Amma.

    It is used three times in the New Testament and has the meaning of 'Father'. It is not the word which Jews would have used of God. It was an affectionate and intimate term. In the use of the Church when used of others it also conveys a sense of spiritual fatherhood.

    It may well be that it dropped out of use in the later Coptic use, but this does not mean that it does not mean 'Father', and was not a normal term used of respected and beloved spiritual fathers.

    Pope and Papa come from the same roots. I would suggest that where there is a doubling of terms of fatherhood it is because of the multiple languages being used, just as we might say 'holy saint Mark' when in fact 'saint' already means 'holy'.

    Father Peter
  • [quote author=Father Peter link=topic=10042.msg122896#msg122896 date=1290975926]
    But we do know that in Aramaic, the source of this word, Abba does mean Father.

    Now it may well be that at later periods perhaps the Copts chose to use this loan word as an honoric, but I don't get that sense at all in the normal use. We speak of the Desert Fathers because they are all called Abba, just as the Desert Mothers are Amma.

    It is used three times in the New Testament and has the meaning of 'Father'. It is not the word which Jews would have used of God. It was an affectionate and intimate term. In the use of the Church when used of others it also conveys a sense of spiritual fatherhood.

    It may well be that it dropped out of use in the later Coptic use, but this does not mean that it does not mean 'Father', and was not a normal term used of respected and beloved spiritual fathers.

    Pope and Papa come from the same roots. I would suggest that where there is a doubling of terms of fatherhood it is because of the multiple languages being used, just as we might say 'holy saint Mark' when in fact 'saint' already means 'holy'.

    Father Peter


    Father Peter,

    In your case, yes, you are right, you can take Abba to mean father. And I can see how the words are connected. I must admit in the case of Abba, it probably mostly relates to fatherhood, however, the word APA([coptic]apa[/coptic] in coptic assuming you have coptic fonts installed if not then it seems like i am repeating myself i suppose) but Apa and abba are different words. In the case of APA im 100% it doesn't mean father. Its more of an honorary title. Also, the mothers of the desert are refered too as Omina(our mother in arabic) or Tammav(in coptic) So not quite the same.

    Pray for me and my weakness
  • I couldn't of had said it better myself.
    That is exactly what I have been taught.
    God bless,
    Cyril
  • jydeacon, i have to disagree with you. the word apa and abba are exactly the same. the reason is simple. the coptic tradition is one of the last to have been written down. it was a very oral tradition. thus when two different people write the same word they can write a different spelling. another reason is the following. you are considering the words in their greco-bohairic pronounciation. by analysing (we spell that word with an 's' in australia) the time period in which it was written, the reason becomes clearer. in the old, original coptic pronounciation the letter 'pi' in apa was pronounced as a 'b' rather than a strong 'p' as we do today. proof for this is also visible in the following word: [coptic]ar,iereuc[/coptic]. in the litany of the fathers after the reading of the gospel and before the prayer of reconciliation (and here i quote the liturgy book commissioned by H.G bishop abba youssef) the priest says the following:
    [coptic]...ari`vmev`i P[oic `mpenpatriar,yc `niwt ettaiyout `nar,i`ereuc papa abba [email protected][/coptic]
    the deacon then respond with the following:
    [coptic]Proceuxac;e `uper tou ar,i`erewc `ymwn...[/coptic]

    they are the same word but they are spelled differently. this is because in the old pronounciation the [coptic]u[/coptic] is pronounced as a 'w' sound. the two people who wrote it spelled it differently due to the difference in time periods or place.

    now you might say that they are different because the priest says coptic but the deacon responds in greek. in that case i say this is one of the words directly taken from the greek and adopted as it is. (like [coptic]pneuma[/coptic])

    God bless you
  • I stand corrected.

    Pray for me and my weakness
Sign In or Register to comment.