I take it some people point to me people. So I will take the volley.
Balados,
You are correct in saying that CIA has helped the church with a lot of things, but in a very undisciplined way he has hurt the church in tremendous waves that will carry over into generations. You may have your opinion. I have mine. I am seeing the ill-effect of undisciplined, cult like attachment to hymns, with no ministry to follow it. The chants are not a joke, nor a fame rise, nor a rock 'n roll stage production, as it has become to a large extent amongst a very ill-disciplined level of CIA-wannabees.
CIA is not worthy of worship, nor is any man, nor is he an idol. I think there is a Commandment about idolatry, last I remember that was covered in the initial two of the Ten Commandments.
In regard to respect, I do not believe that the Master Cantor should be entering the Cathedral in short sleeves as an example nor as a presence to the Altar that he is about to approach. I know about air conditioning and heat, so maybe we can save that argument. His Holiness, nor any member of the clergy, do not take off those robes because of the heat or any other reason. Short sleeves at the altar, definitively, absolutely, and without question is a disrespect to the Altar and the Service in the altar.
I will also save you having to plant the argument of God wants our hearts not our sleeves. I suggest the reading of the Books of the Exodus, and Leviticus for a primer on conduct in the presence of the Almighty.
You are correct, I do not like his style. In my opinion, which duly stated, is contrary to thousands and thousands of opposing comments and people. However, no different than I have previously stated, majority does not make right. A man called Athanasius proved that point. Maybe I'm right, or maybe I am a destructive, dispicable, annoying jerk, but nonetheless, I stand by my opinion, and I give reasoning for it. I won't elaborate more on my reasoning because it actually will dig up distasteful aspects that go beyond the general comments.
As for His Holiness, he has enough to deal with in terms of being a Shepherd to the Coptic Orthodox Church, being a relief in all of the sorrow that our people are facing, comforting the sick and the grieving, offer sacrifice, preserve the Sacraments, offer preaching and leadership, write books, confront the Government, deal with the Government, chastise the Government, keep calm about the people so that they do not get slaughtered, pray for the people, intercede with God for the people, and all of that before he has breakfast. I do not think that he has time for the nonsense for which you are ascribing as some sort of acceptance.
In regard to a Cantor or a given person given charge as a head deacon, he should be an example. He does not need his cleric to help him get dressed in the morning as to what is appropriate. If I,in my position, am trying to teach my own family kids that regard and respect,and they offer CIA as an example as an otherwise, how do I answer?
Deacons should take care of their duties. I have yet to find a verse in: Acts, the Epistles of St. Paul, or any portion that speak of the duties of the diaconate as being anything other than butlers, valets, janitors, servants, caretakers, assistants to the clerics. A chanter is not a deacon. Chanters are given the task of singing. Deacons are given the task of serving [and deaconing {this is a made up word to show my sarcasm}].
I have no ill will towards the man personally, I am a sinner myself, but I do not like his style and that is my opinion. It has been a source for major destruction in the Church.
I do agree with everything you said to an extent. However, it is not Ibrahim Ayads job to teach spirituality of the hymns, his purpose is to relay them and record them in a manner for learning. The job and duty I believe falls on the lead deacons and teachers of each specific parish. There lies the problem. If the leaders in each church took the time to do so while teaching a hymn, spirituality, meaning and even a study of it, then the church would be a much more spiritual atmosphere. The issue here is, you have children teaching children, or no one teaching at all so the kids have to learn from his recordings without getting a dose of spirituality. This then lead to when they teach because they never learned it. Not to say these people are bad or deficient but a reform is definitely needed, to teach with understanding and not simply to relay musical incantation on..my two cents
He is a Master Cantor and in the most sensitive place. These "lead deacons" (of vast majority) are following an improper precedence and the same, stick the microphone down your throat (+/- catsup).
1. His example and appearance are important.
2. He is responsible for teaching spirituality and the such, even in recording. If you recall the first tapes of the Pascha, HG Bishop Gregorious of thrice blessed memory, did so.
3. There is a trickle down effect in terms of the precedence.
Your last sentence is very strong. But I still say the deacons job is to serve (primarily), not to chant. Chanters do the chanting. The chanters (epsaltos) are not deacons.
The problem does not only lie with the role model cantors like Ibrahim Ayad. They are quite far away for a lot of us. I mean, when I was a kid, I used to listen to the recordings and found them to be a great inspiration to learn from (compared to the usually very bad quality recordings for the older cantors). However, I had no clue what he wore, how he acted, how he even looked like. I found out all these things much later. To me the problem primairly is in the local leadership (as jy pointed out). Since most of us grow up in a new church, often there's no older generation deacons who are knowledgeable in hymnology, or at least didn't have the full opportunity to learn hymns the way we can now. This causes unexperienced young deacons to be in a position to lead and sing hymns that nobody else knows, for practical reasons: namely, nobody else knows them. Another problem is the general organisation of deaconship by clergy, who usually out of encouragement of the young will ordain them without proper preparation and/or give them tasks that don't suit their age / spirituality / rank. We had this discussion many times in my church, and in the end when you're faced with huge amounts of young deacons, it's simply impossible to give them all personal guidence. It's a complex problem that needs a reformation of our thinking and upbringing of new generations. It needs a specific curriculum that both clergy and servants should stick to. I really don't think it's the main fault of a cantor like Ibrahim Ayad that things go wrong in local churches. It may be part of the problem. On the other side, it's a good thing that young deacons get ordained so that they grow into service as a deacon, even if they do not always give the proper respect during the liturgy - at least its better than what we see in a lot of other churches than run out of youth because they never grew up in church. There's always room for improvement, both for young and older deacons, but (concerning young deacons) maybe we should also ask ourselves how WE used to behave back when we were younger and what effect it would have had if we were treated more strictly.
ilovesaintmark, i STILL don't see a the problem with Ibrahim Ayad. All what you are saying about him being a Master Cantor is good...but that cannot bring us his ways here in the states or any place outside Egypt. All we can get out of him is the recordings and that's one of aspect of our service; learning alhan. And he is a way for that.
The ArchDeacon Habib Girgis, wrote many books about service, theology...everything. But did we see a recording for him teaching teaching alhan....no. Does that mean that he WASN'T good at alhan? NO! it just means that he concentrated more on that.
What's also weird is that you are only talking about Ibrahim Ayad...why not talk about everyone else. M.Sadek: the guy was HATED by everyone; but he is still one of the closest people to M Mikhael.
I think it would be very beneficial if the ancient hierarchy of the diaconate and minor orders was properly reconstituted, and the canonical disciplines enforced. It would also be very beneficial if the various ranks were only entered into according to proper knowledge, spiritual maturity and proven service.
It is not helpful that ALL of the minor orders are described as deacons since this confuses the hierarchy of service.
[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=10033.msg123461#msg123461 date=1291502917] I think it would be very beneficial if the ancient hierarchy of the diaconate and minor orders was properly reconstituted, and the canonical disciplines enforced. It would also be very beneficial if the various ranks were only entered into according to proper knowledge, spiritual maturity and proven service.
It is not helpful that ALL of the minor orders are described as deacons since this confuses the hierarchy of service.
Father Peter
Unfortunately Father, many years of conditioning have led us to this point. I think it would be very, very difficult to reorganise everything now that it has been set in such a way for a while.
[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=10033.msg123461#msg123461 date=1291502917] I think it would be very beneficial if the ancient hierarchy of the diaconate and minor orders was properly reconstituted, and the canonical disciplines enforced. It would also be very beneficial if the various ranks were only entered into according to proper knowledge, spiritual maturity and proven service.
It is not helpful that ALL of the minor orders are described as deacons since this confuses the hierarchy of service.
Father Peter
well now, most bishops consider the age of those who they ordain.
Also many other bishops are strict about the duties of those deacons they ordain inside their diocese.
I like calling him CIA, it has a sense of mystique to it. Ibo sounds like a character from the Star Wars movies.
Getting back to the serious. Fr. Peter's point is very strong, as usual. I think this is where Ophadece's points also chime in, in that the laxity in the Arabic language allowed for this vagueness in terminology so that everybody and their grandfather is known as a deacon.
As for CIA, I will retract my comments in the regard that I do not want to air my strong views further or to air dirty laundry. I cannot make a full and sensible argument, if I cannot present all of the facts. Logically, it makes for a baseless deduction.
Each person on this site has certain biases and heartfelt issues that they hold dearly with certain priority. The diaconal service is where I am very sensitive, because I believe that portion of the pyramid needs to be bolstered and invigorated to a better limit. Quite honestly it is the launching point for the rest of the clerical ranks.
I do believe in service, emulation, example, and precedence.
I agree with jydeacon, cantors only teach the actual hymn. However, it would be better if these cantors started to include contemplations on the hymns, words, and tunes (something like that video Anba Rafael did a couple years ago when he brought in David Ensemble and Ibrahim Ayad and Chorus). A true deacon is one that UNDERSTANDS the hymns in its meaning. The Church made the Epsaltos the lowest rank for a reason and that is because every rank of the deaconate should UNDERSTAND what they chant rather than chanting like parrots and lacking understanding. I agree with ilovesaintmark in the sense that a deacon is a servant. The deacon's role should also be to let the congregation know what the hymns mean. I wished we could reinstitute the deaconate as the apostles had initially established it (as Father Peter said) but (as josephgabriel said) it is nearly impossible...age has really dominated.
[quote author=aem581 link=topic=10033.msg123474#msg123474 date=1291534100] I agree with jydeacon, cantors only teach the actual hymn. However, it would be better if these cantors started to include contemplations on the hymns, words, and tunes (something like that video Anba Rafael did a couple years ago when he brought in David Ensemble and Ibrahim Ayad and Chorus). A true deacon is one that UNDERSTANDS the hymns in its meaning. The Church made the Epsaltos the lowest rank for a reason and that is because every rank of the deaconate should UNDERSTAND what they chant rather than chanting like parrots and lacking understanding. I agree with ilovesaintmark in the sense that a deacon is a servant. The deacon's role should also be to let the congregation know what the hymns mean. I wished we could reinstitute the deaconate as the apostles had initially established it (as Father Peter said) but (as josephgabriel said) it is nearly impossible...age has really dominated.
ya habibi what are you talking about......what cantors?! In egypt, they already do that.....they "pass down"=yessallemo the hymns with their rites and meaning a contemplations......but we never get these. we are LUCKY to just have the recordings of the alhan. WE are the ones who should go and search to understand.....the initiative is for us to take and not other....actually it's what separates true epsaltoses from those who just show of..... As i always say....if a person doesn't WANT to learn the hymns, he won't....that person i the one who will go after what he just learned to understand and comprehend.
Mina, the fact of the matter quite simply is cantors only teach the actual hymn in its tune but do not teach the religion behind the hymn or why the tune is chanted in the manner it is in). And yeah, that's Egypt...but that KILLS all the people in the lands of immigration. To be honest with you, I've always tried looking for contemplations for tunes and even questioned myself why the Church sometimes uses certain tunes in more than one occasion for two different hymns in different seasons. So I do seek to understand, but I've never really had the sources to go much further in my research.
He (Cantor Zaher) is the very first solo. For those who do not know, the second solo is Cantor Ibrahim Ayad and the third solo is Ibrahim Ayad's son the Deacon Anton Ibrahim Ayad.
I wouldn't know, but I'd doubt he's autistic... I'm pretty sure he was just nervous. He's definitely not albino by the way, his skin is darker than mine. He may be Vitamin D deficient however.
Comments
Balados,
You are correct in saying that CIA has helped the church with a lot of things, but in a very undisciplined way he has hurt the church in tremendous waves that will carry over into generations. You may have your opinion. I have mine. I am seeing the ill-effect of undisciplined, cult like attachment to hymns, with no ministry to follow it. The chants are not a joke, nor a fame rise, nor a rock 'n roll stage production, as it has become to a large extent amongst a very ill-disciplined level of CIA-wannabees.
CIA is not worthy of worship, nor is any man, nor is he an idol. I think there is a Commandment about idolatry, last I remember that was covered in the initial two of the Ten Commandments.
In regard to respect, I do not believe that the Master Cantor should be entering the Cathedral in short sleeves as an example nor as a presence to the Altar that he is about to approach. I know about air conditioning and heat, so maybe we can save that argument. His Holiness, nor any member of the clergy, do not take off those robes because of the heat or any other reason. Short sleeves at the altar, definitively, absolutely, and without question is a disrespect to the Altar and the Service in the altar.
I will also save you having to plant the argument of God wants our hearts not our sleeves. I suggest the reading of the Books of the Exodus, and Leviticus for a primer on conduct in the presence of the Almighty.
You are correct, I do not like his style. In my opinion, which duly stated, is contrary to thousands and thousands of opposing comments and people. However, no different than I have previously stated, majority does not make right. A man called Athanasius proved that point. Maybe I'm right, or maybe I am a destructive, dispicable, annoying jerk, but nonetheless, I stand by my opinion, and I give reasoning for it. I won't elaborate more on my reasoning because it actually will dig up distasteful aspects that go beyond the general comments.
As for His Holiness, he has enough to deal with in terms of being a Shepherd to the Coptic Orthodox Church, being a relief in all of the sorrow that our people are facing, comforting the sick and the grieving, offer sacrifice, preserve the Sacraments, offer preaching and leadership, write books, confront the Government, deal with the Government, chastise the Government, keep calm about the people so that they do not get slaughtered, pray for the people, intercede with God for the people, and all of that before he has breakfast. I do not think that he has time for the nonsense for which you are ascribing as some sort of acceptance.
In regard to a Cantor or a given person given charge as a head deacon, he should be an example. He does not need his cleric to help him get dressed in the morning as to what is appropriate. If I,in my position, am trying to teach my own family kids that regard and respect,and they offer CIA as an example as an otherwise, how do I answer?
Deacons should take care of their duties. I have yet to find a verse in: Acts, the Epistles of St. Paul, or any portion that speak of the duties of the diaconate as being anything other than butlers, valets, janitors, servants, caretakers, assistants to the clerics. A chanter is not a deacon. Chanters are given the task of singing. Deacons are given the task of serving [and deaconing {this is a made up word to show my sarcasm}].
I have no ill will towards the man personally, I am a sinner myself, but I do not like his style and that is my opinion. It has been a source for major destruction in the Church.
I do agree with everything you said to an extent. However, it is not Ibrahim Ayads job to teach spirituality of the hymns, his purpose is to relay them and record them in a manner for learning. The job and duty I believe falls on the lead deacons and teachers of each specific parish. There lies the problem. If the leaders in each church took the time to do so while teaching a hymn, spirituality, meaning and even a study of it, then the church would be a much more spiritual atmosphere. The issue here is, you have children teaching children, or no one teaching at all so the kids have to learn from his recordings without getting a dose of spirituality. This then lead to when they teach because they never learned it. Not to say these people are bad or deficient but a reform is definitely needed, to teach with understanding and not simply to relay musical incantation on..my two cents
God bless
He is a Master Cantor and in the most sensitive place. These "lead deacons" (of vast majority) are following an improper precedence and the same, stick the microphone down your throat (+/- catsup).
1. His example and appearance are important.
2. He is responsible for teaching spirituality and the such, even in recording. If you recall the first tapes of the Pascha, HG Bishop Gregorious of thrice blessed memory, did so.
3. There is a trickle down effect in terms of the precedence.
Your last sentence is very strong. But I still say the deacons job is to serve (primarily), not to chant. Chanters do the chanting. The chanters (epsaltos) are not deacons.
To me the problem primairly is in the local leadership (as jy pointed out). Since most of us grow up in a new church, often there's no older generation deacons who are knowledgeable in hymnology, or at least didn't have the full opportunity to learn hymns the way we can now. This causes unexperienced young deacons to be in a position to lead and sing hymns that nobody else knows, for practical reasons: namely, nobody else knows them.
Another problem is the general organisation of deaconship by clergy, who usually out of encouragement of the young will ordain them without proper preparation and/or give them tasks that don't suit their age / spirituality / rank. We had this discussion many times in my church, and in the end when you're faced with huge amounts of young deacons, it's simply impossible to give them all personal guidence.
It's a complex problem that needs a reformation of our thinking and upbringing of new generations. It needs a specific curriculum that both clergy and servants should stick to.
I really don't think it's the main fault of a cantor like Ibrahim Ayad that things go wrong in local churches. It may be part of the problem.
On the other side, it's a good thing that young deacons get ordained so that they grow into service as a deacon, even if they do not always give the proper respect during the liturgy - at least its better than what we see in a lot of other churches than run out of youth because they never grew up in church.
There's always room for improvement, both for young and older deacons, but (concerning young deacons) maybe we should also ask ourselves how WE used to behave back when we were younger and what effect it would have had if we were treated more strictly.
ilovesaintmark,
i STILL don't see a the problem with Ibrahim Ayad. All what you are saying about him being a Master Cantor is good...but that cannot bring us his ways here in the states or any place outside Egypt. All we can get out of him is the recordings and that's one of aspect of our service; learning alhan. And he is a way for that.
The ArchDeacon Habib Girgis, wrote many books about service, theology...everything. But did we see a recording for him teaching teaching alhan....no. Does that mean that he WASN'T good at alhan? NO! it just means that he concentrated more on that.
What's also weird is that you are only talking about Ibrahim Ayad...why not talk about everyone else. M.Sadek: the guy was HATED by everyone; but he is still one of the closest people to M Mikhael.
It is not helpful that ALL of the minor orders are described as deacons since this confuses the hierarchy of service.
Father Peter
I think it would be very beneficial if the ancient hierarchy of the diaconate and minor orders was properly reconstituted, and the canonical disciplines enforced. It would also be very beneficial if the various ranks were only entered into according to proper knowledge, spiritual maturity and proven service.
It is not helpful that ALL of the minor orders are described as deacons since this confuses the hierarchy of service.
Father Peter
Unfortunately Father, many years of conditioning have led us to this point. I think it would be very, very difficult to reorganise everything now that it has been set in such a way for a while.
I think it would be very beneficial if the ancient hierarchy of the diaconate and minor orders was properly reconstituted, and the canonical disciplines enforced. It would also be very beneficial if the various ranks were only entered into according to proper knowledge, spiritual maturity and proven service.
It is not helpful that ALL of the minor orders are described as deacons since this confuses the hierarchy of service.
Father Peter
well now, most bishops consider the age of those who they ordain.
Also many other bishops are strict about the duties of those deacons they ordain inside their diocese.
I like calling him CIA, it has a sense of mystique to it. Ibo sounds like a character from the Star Wars movies.
Getting back to the serious. Fr. Peter's point is very strong, as usual. I think this is where Ophadece's points also chime in, in that the laxity in the Arabic language allowed for this vagueness in terminology so that everybody and their grandfather is known as a deacon.
As for CIA, I will retract my comments in the regard that I do not want to air my strong views further or to air dirty laundry. I cannot make a full and sensible argument, if I cannot present all of the facts. Logically, it makes for a baseless deduction.
Each person on this site has certain biases and heartfelt issues that they hold dearly with certain priority. The diaconal service is where I am very sensitive, because I believe that portion of the pyramid needs to be bolstered and invigorated to a better limit. Quite honestly it is the launching point for the rest of the clerical ranks.
I do believe in service, emulation, example, and precedence.
I agree with jydeacon, cantors only teach the actual hymn. However, it would be better if these cantors started to include contemplations on the hymns, words, and tunes (something like that video Anba Rafael did a couple years ago when he brought in David Ensemble and Ibrahim Ayad and Chorus). A true deacon is one that UNDERSTANDS the hymns in its meaning. The Church made the Epsaltos the lowest rank for a reason and that is because every rank of the deaconate should UNDERSTAND what they chant rather than chanting like parrots and lacking understanding. I agree with ilovesaintmark in the sense that a deacon is a servant. The deacon's role should also be to let the congregation know what the hymns mean. I wished we could reinstitute the deaconate as the apostles had initially established it (as Father Peter said) but (as josephgabriel said) it is nearly impossible...age has really dominated.
ya habibi what are you talking about......what cantors?!
In egypt, they already do that.....they "pass down"=yessallemo the hymns with their rites and meaning a contemplations......but we never get these. we are LUCKY to just have the recordings of the alhan.
WE are the ones who should go and search to understand.....the initiative is for us to take and not other....actually it's what separates true epsaltoses from those who just show of.....
As i always say....if a person doesn't WANT to learn the hymns, he won't....that person i the one who will go after what he just learned to understand and comprehend.
هللى وإفرحى يا كنيستنا
He (Cantor Zaher) is the very first solo. For those who do not know, the second solo is Cantor Ibrahim Ayad and the third solo is Ibrahim Ayad's son the Deacon Anton Ibrahim Ayad.
I wasn't talking about that TITL.
be specific.