On Protestantism

[Ioannes]

     The protestant people are largely ignorant in the sense that they were never taught the true way in which to worship and serve God. So they grow comfortable as they create their own personal way to worship and their own system of beliefs that can even be separate or different from the established church to which they belong. The protestant church, consiting of 38,000 denominations (http://christianity.about.com/od/denominations/p/christiantoday.htm), has become sad and pathetic, it has become a barren desert, and uninhabited island in the middle of a vast ocean. It has become a place where people come together who only have one thing in common, they believe in Christ whom they share no common opinion, everything else differs and quite frankly doesn't even matter to them. There is no communion between the people let alone between the people and God, as those who still practice communion, which is few, view it as symbolic and nothing more.
     The protestants deny the Orthodox church for many reasons. One reason is that they would have to deny themselves and take up their cross (Mt 16:24). As practicing an Orthodox spiritual life is not an easy one. This also would mean they no longer have the self appointed authority that protestantism offers, for them to create their own rules and doctrine. Because protestantism is so superficial it has to give its adherants what they want to hear, the feel good gospel or prosperity gospel, filling them with pride and telling them how great they are and how much God wants them to have. To keep people in the church they also have created gimmicks. This idea started long ago with the charismatic and pentecostal movement, which are exact copies of Montanism. Eventually they had revivals, child preachers and in the more modern times they have slogans like what would Jesus do and Christian rock music and cool new hip churches with cool preachers. They have traded truth for comfort. Protestantism as a whole contains every one of the heresies condemned in the early part of the church, as we have mentioned Montanism is the pentecostals, Arianism is the Jehovah Witness, The Way Intl., Chilliasm is accepted by pretty much every protestant denomination that exists today, also there is Sabellianism, Docetism, Adoptionism, Nestorianism, Apollinarianism, Pelagianism, Gnosticism, and Manicheanism. I am amazed when i see Orthodox Christians defending protestantism, which rejects everything about us and more importantly about Christ.
      An Orthodox service revolves around the body and blood of Christ, protestantism rejects this idea and considers it silly, I say to all of you, any church that rejects the sacraments it not a house of God but a seat of satan. By accepting this heresy as Christian we are making our own belief relative and obsolete. Universal salvation is a lie and a heresy, just because someone says "I am a Christian" does not make them one. Christ says that many will not enter the kingdom, many who even believe His name ( Mt 7:22, Luke 13:24, 18:8 ). I was once protestant, and actively sought the truth, it was hard but I came to Orthodoxy because it is true, the majority of protestants do not want to because they are or have been deluded into thinking that Orthodoxy is evil, that we worship St. Mary and Icons. Protestantism cannot possibly be right in any way.
       Luther basically said, everyone who came before me for the last 1500 years has been wrong, which contradicts scripture (Mt 16:18). These protestant doctrines of "sola fide" and "sola scriptura" are anti-scriptural (James 2:18). Sola scriptura is a fallacy simply because the church was established first and Christ Himself established it on Himself and the faith of the apostles in Mt 16:18. Nowhere is a bible mentioned. If it were the sole authority wouldn't Christ have mentioned this? Or even written it? Because the authority of Christ is passed on to His apostles (Mt 16:19) this would mean that the church, not the bible, is the authority. In fact it was not until 300 years after that the bible was actually put together and the books canonized. While some churches did indeed have scripture, many didn't or had very little. So if the bible is the sole authority by which we must live then what did Christians do for about 300 years or so? 2 Thess. 2:10-11 says "And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness." Protestantism is soil and we are the gardeners, we must plant the seed in them and water it, now we cannot make this seed sprout, this part is up to God.

[sodr2]

I say to all of you, any church that rejects the sacraments it not a house of God but a seat of satan.

Jesus said we know them by their fruits. So how then, can a loving Protestant church be a seat of Satan?

Universal salvation is a lie and a heresy, just because someone says "I am a Christian" does not make them one.

What are you getting at? That Protestants cannot receive salvation? This, my friend, is a lie and a heresy. Only God can judge.

Even those who have never heard the name of Christ can do so (according to Catholic belief, not 100% sure what the Orthodox stance on this is).

[Ioannes]

I say to all of you, any church that rejects the sacraments it not a house of God but a seat of satan.

Jesus said we know them by their fruits. So how then, can a loving Protestant church be a seat of Satan?

Universal salvation is a lie and a heresy, just because someone says "I am a Christian" does not make them one.

What are you getting at? That Protestants cannot receive salvation? This, my friend, is a lie and a heresy. Only God can judge.

Even those who have never heard the name of Christ can do so (according to Catholic belief, not 100% sure what the Orthodox stance on this is).

Again my friend you twist my words as if I am judging the person when clearly I am judging their belief. This is not a heresy the Coptic church teaches that salvation doesn't exist outside the Orthodox Church. That means if you are trying to attain salvation outside Christ, the Church is His body, then you aren't going to achieve it. Here again you take what I am saying and apply it to something else. I never said those who never heard His name wouldn't have a chance. I am speaking strictly against protestantism, which not only attacks the Orthodox Church but seeks its destruction. You are very wrong about Catholic doctrine which literally states that nobody can recieve salvation outside the Catholic Church no matter what. That is not what I am saying. When you willingly reject the Church, you are rejecting Christ. If the church is His body and the church is His authority then your saying rejecting it is alright? How can a loving glorious protestant church be a seat of satan? Let me explain. Rev 12:10 refers to satan as "standing before God accusing men of their sins", his name literally means "adversary, accuser". Now since protestantism loves to accuse Catholic and Orthodox of idol worship, worshiping St. Mary, accusing us of loving tradition over the bible, being anti-Christs then we can tell that accusing is not in the spirit of God but of satan. Strike one. This next one should be logic. If someone rejects the sacraments, Communion especially, in what possible way can they be considered a Christian? Have you seen how serious Orthodox take this sacrament? We have been serious about this for 2000 years. 500 years ago Martin Luther came along claiming everyone had it all wrong for 1500 years but he had it right and was going to restore Christs church. Anytime anyone comes along insinuating or even saying that, they are nuts. Simply,  not only by rejecting the church but especially by rejecting the sacraments does that statement ring true. Strike Two. Another flaw you probably never thought of is that protestantism rejects the early church fathers. Rejecting this foundation has very bad consequences and as I had mentioned before every heresy  we condemned in the early church exists within the realm of protestantism. So by rejecting the early church fathers they are also rejecting the apostolic fathers, who were taught by the apostles. Now if the apostolic fathers cannot be accepted and their writings are in error, then how can they accept the apostles who taught them? If they cannot accept the apostles, then they couldn't possibly accept the gospels, and yet they do. Protestantism seeks to "protest", hence the name, and the original protestant churches were protested against leading to more denominations, then those were  protested against leading to more denominations and so on and so forth. It seeks to conform to the spirit of the ages, to reduce itself to its simplest form until it cannot be reduced anymore, the lowest common denominator. We see this happening now. People saying they don't need anything but the bible, since they are already saved by asking Jesus into their heart and praying the sinners prayer, and in John 5:39 Christ says to the Pharisees:"Ye search the scriptures, because ye think that in them ye have eternal life; and these are they which bear witness of me; and ye will not come to me, that ye may have life." Relying solely on scripture is not enough and yet while this belief is anti-scriptural they continue believing it. Strike Three. Please do not take what I am saying out of context.

[sodr2]

Again my friend you twist my words as if I am judging the person when clearly I am judging their belief.

I simply asked a question to see what you were getting at...

Here again you take what I am saying and apply it to something else. I never said those who never heard His name wouldn't have a chance.

Did I even accuse you of believing those who never heard His name wouldn't be saved? You are too sensitive.

You are very wrong about Catholic doctrine which literally states that nobody can recieve salvation outside the Catholic Church no matter what.

You are mistaken: "it [the Catholic Church] also acknowledges that the Holy Spirit can make use of other Christian communities to bring people to salvation."

When you willingly reject the Church, you are rejecting Christ.

We believe that only through the Sacramental Life of the Church, one can be saved. However, you cannot apply this to principle to individual cases and judge their salvation; only God can judge.

[geomike]

ok, first of all you guys need to calm down a little.

This thread won't be helpful if we just keep on accusing and denying

[minagir]

First......Ioannes, what is the point that you are trying to make?

An Orthodox service revolves around the body and blood of Christ, protestantism rejects this idea and considers it silly, I say to all of you, any church that rejects the sacraments it not a house of God but a seat of satan. By accepting this heresy as Christian we are making our own belief relative and obsolete. Universal salvation is a lie and a heresy, just because someone says "I am a Christian" does not make them one. Christ says that many will not enter the kingdom, many who even believe His name ( Mt 7:22, Luke 13:24, 18:8 ). I was once protestant, and actively sought the truth, it was hard but I came to Orthodoxy because it is true, the majority of protestants do not want to because they are or have been deluded into thinking that Orthodoxy is evil, that we worship St. Mary and Icons. Protestantism cannot possibly be right in any way.

your conclusion about "a church that rejects the sacraments is not a house of God but a seat of Satan" is just too general and is backed up with nothing. You were protestant, ok....so you know that some of them would have enough faith then one copt may ever have......and YES they are Christians simply because they do believe that "Jesus Christ is the Son of God."
Of course NOT EVERY ONE IS GOING TO HEAVEN!!! including many of the Orthodox Church themselves. God made that clear in His parable about the ten virgins......

Luther basically said, everyone who came before me for the last 1500 years has been wrong, which contradicts scripture (Mt 16:18). These protestant doctrines of "sola fide" and "sola scriptura" are anti-scriptural (James 2:18). Sola scriptura is a fallacy simply because the church was established first and Christ Himself established it on Himself and the faith of the apostles in Mt 16:18. Nowhere is a bible mentioned. If it were the sole authority wouldn't Christ have mentioned this? Or even written it? Because the authority of Christ is passed on to His apostles (Mt 16:19) this would mean that the church, not the bible, is the authority. In fact it was not until 300 years after that the bible was actually put together and the books canonized. While some churches did indeed have scripture, many didn't or had very little. So if the bible is the sole authority by which we must live then what did Christians do for about 300 years or so?

please don't go there.......the HOLY BIBLE does have authority being handed down from GOD who have the FULL AND ULTIMATE AUTHORITY, being the Author of us and everything. The Bible was there the 300 hundred years before it was compiled and it was only compiled to NOT give others the chance to add or take away any of it. The main thing here is that it can't be ONLY THE BIBLE.....but also the Church and the Apostles writings and Tradition.
And yes they do ignore many things in the Bible that they just can't explain so they leave out. it's a wrong thing to do.......but don't we all do wring things......we break MANY OF THE CLEAR COMMANDMENTS and we still think we are fine...nothing is going. like people getting tattoos when there is no need for them any more.......things like these. 

[Ioannes]

First......Ioannes, what is the point that you are trying to make?

An Orthodox service revolves around the body and blood of Christ, protestantism rejects this idea and considers it silly, I say to all of you, any church that rejects the sacraments it not a house of God but a seat of satan. By accepting this heresy as Christian we are making our own belief relative and obsolete. Universal salvation is a lie and a heresy, just because someone says "I am a Christian" does not make them one. Christ says that many will not enter the kingdom, many who even believe His name ( Mt 7:22, Luke 13:24, 18:8 ). I was once protestant, and actively sought the truth, it was hard but I came to Orthodoxy because it is true, the majority of protestants do not want to because they are or have been deluded into thinking that Orthodoxy is evil, that we worship St. Mary and Icons. Protestantism cannot possibly be right in any way.

your conclusion about "a church that rejects the sacraments is not a house of God but a seat of Satan" is just too general and is backed up with nothing. You were protestant, ok....so you know that some of them would have enough faith then one copt may ever have......and YES they are Christians simply because they do believe that "Jesus Christ is the Son of God."
Of course NOT EVERY ONE IS GOING TO HEAVEN!!! including many of the Orthodox Church themselves. God made that clear in His parable about the ten virgins......

Luther basically said, everyone who came before me for the last 1500 years has been wrong, which contradicts scripture (Mt 16:18). These protestant doctrines of "sola fide" and "sola scriptura" are anti-scriptural (James 2:18). Sola scriptura is a fallacy simply because the church was established first and Christ Himself established it on Himself and the faith of the apostles in Mt 16:18. Nowhere is a bible mentioned. If it were the sole authority wouldn't Christ have mentioned this? Or even written it? Because the authority of Christ is passed on to His apostles (Mt 16:19) this would mean that the church, not the bible, is the authority. In fact it was not until 300 years after that the bible was actually put together and the books canonized. While some churches did indeed have scripture, many didn't or had very little. So if the bible is the sole authority by which we must live then what did Christians do for about 300 years or so?

please don't go there.......the HOLY BIBLE does have authority being handed down from GOD who have the FULL AND ULTIMATE AUTHORITY, being the Author of us and everything. The Bible was there the 300 hundred years before it was compiled and it was only compiled to NOT give others the chance to add or take away any of it. The main thing here is that it can't be ONLY THE BIBLE.....but also the Church and the Apostles writings and Tradition.
And yes they do ignore many things in the Bible that they just can't explain so they leave out. it's a wrong thing to do.......but don't we all do wring things......we break MANY OF THE CLEAR COMMANDMENTS and we still think we are fine...nothing is going. like people getting tattoos when there is no need for them any more.......things like these. 

Again words or arguments are made against arguments I never made. I clearly stated the bible is NOT the SOLE authority, I did not say however that it holds no authority or any kind of weight. I am surprised at the amount of people who have no clear understanding of protestantism and how dangerous it is. The sacraments were instituted for a reason, the Holy Communion by Christ Himself, who said this is His body and His blood.He also states that if we DO NOT drink of His blood and eat of His body we cannot enter the kingdom of heaven, the same with baptism. If you accept their baptism, which it is now common in many churches to baptize not by water but by "fire". Your definition of a Christian is quite vague and disturbing by your logic Jim Jones is Christian, David Koresh is Christian, Marshall Applewhite is Christian, and many Buddhists are Christian, David Berkowitz is Christian, Ted Bundy is Christian, Tony Alamo is Christian, Victor Paul Weirwille is Christian, even the Jehovah Witness believe Christ is the Son of God, not God Himself! Your definition is illogical and absurd. By saying anyone who believes in Christ is Christian is making Orthodoxy relative. If they are right and they are true then why do we fast 210 days out of the year, why do we confess, why do we have these long services when we can rock out and have fun then listen to a guy talk all within an hour? We do these things because it IS the church of Christ, anything outside it is not acting on Christ's authority but its OWN authority. Orthodox people need to understand that this protestant infiltration of Orthodoxy is NOT acceptable. Again I am not condemning the people, I am condemning the belief and pointing out the danger of this belief.

[sodr2]

Even Jesus dined with Pharisees who were incorrect in belief. He corrected them only when necessary.

[Ioannes]

Even Jesus dined with Pharisees who were incorrect in belief. He corrected them only when necessary.

Am I making it seem as if I hate these people? Have I not constantly stated that im against the belief not the people? My parents are protestants, my brother an atheist. Am I sending this to protestants? No I am posting this on an Orthodox website that people might understand the danger of mixing these beliefs together. Am I not making it clear enough that I am not against the protestant people, just the beliefs they adhere to. Please understand I am not judging anyone and certainly not condemning them. I think people sometimes have a hard time distinguishing the person from the belief, or the sin from the sinner. Understand the difference.

[sodr2]

Even Jesus dined with Pharisees who were incorrect in belief. He corrected them only when necessary.

Am I making it seem as if I hate these people? Have I not constantly stated that im against the belief not the people? My parents are protestants, my brother an atheist. Am I sending this to protestants? No I am posting this on an Orthodox website that people might understand the danger of mixing these beliefs together. Am I not making it clear enough that I am not against the protestant people, just the beliefs they adhere to. Please understand I am not judging anyone and certainly not condemning them. I think people sometimes have a hard time distinguishing the person from the belief, or the sin from the sinner. Understand the difference.

okay, but a person's beliefs, opinions, etc is what makes up the person lol, were not robots

[Ioannes]

Sodr what your saying is that being critical of another belief is wrong? This belief is dangerous not only to the human, but to Orthodoxy. People are integrating these two beliefs and again I allude to St. John Chrysostom in his discourses against the judaizers, in which he refers to jewish temples as a house of satan. Being critical of a belief system is completely different than directing it at a specific group of people or person. If we criticize islam for the sake of educating the Orthodox is that wrong as well? No it is not because we are not aiming it at the people, we love them and pray for them, we are aiming our criticism at the belief the religion itself. How can I criticize a doctrine then have you say that I am judging protestant people? It is nonsense. Instead of asking questions about the statement I made, you have made absurd assumptions about things I have said, and implied that I have said something I have not. Maybe you should inquire as to what I am saying and why before you open your mouth.

[sodr2]

Sodr what your saying is that being critical of another belief is wrong?

You have bad interpretation skills, what I meant is that when you criticism one's beliefs, you are criticizing that person because he has chosen to believe so and so.

Maybe you should inquire as to what I am saying and why before you open your mouth.

Maybe you should wait until I answer the questions you direct to me (see three sentences above), instead of saying I should shut my mouth.

[Ioannes]

Sodr what your saying is that being critical of another belief is wrong?

You have bad interpretation skills, what I meant is that when you criticism one's beliefs, you are criticizing that person because he has chosen to believe so and so.

Maybe you should inquire as to what I am saying and why before you open your mouth.

Maybe you should wait until I answer the questions you direct to me (see three sentences above), instead of saying I should shut my mouth.

This is really going nowhere, its clear that you agree with protestantism and disagree with any form of criticism to the system of beliefs known as protestantism. You have been continually misinterpreting me, I never said shut your mouth, as you can see above, I simply stated that instead of insinuating and assuming that I am saying something that I am not, then you should ask questions, ask if I am personally attacking protestant people. I am done with this conversation, I am not going to get involved in a mud slinging contest because that is obviously what you are out for. My statement that I posted is not only a defense of Orthodoxy but also to show the danger involved with these beliefs. Many saints criticized the beliefs of others, granted most were fellow Orthodox, but not all of them. Montanism did not stem from Orthodoxy and was heavily criticized by the Orthodox. Again I am done, I am NOT here for arguments, if you have questions then ask them.

[geomike]

OK, it is not funny, i don't want to have to say it again but i will.


Stop Arguing, There are other ways to get your point through without name calling.

So please just calm down

[sodr2]

its clear that you agree with protestantism and disagree with any form of criticism to the system of beliefs known as protestantism.

When did I say that? I'm saying that it's okay to criticism one's beliefs, but you are also in a sense, criticizing that person. So, as you can see, you have misinterpreted moi.

The end.