Author Topic: Some misconceptions that I have! (Read 837 times)

Altair91 · « **on:** March 04, 2013, 11:47:04 PM »

there is a lot of issues that I am not so sure and I hope you guys can help!

1-)Can Coptic priests or just priests in general and any official members of the church get married ?

2-)I read this from an article that Christians believe that women are punished with pain of childbirth and menstrual cycles because she tempted Adam to eat the "Apple", Is this true ?

Thanks and God Bless

minatasgeel · « **Reply #1 on:** March 04, 2013, 11:57:28 PM »

Quote from: Altair91 on March 04, 2013, 11:47:04 PM

there is a lot of issues that I am not so sure and I hope you guys can help!

1-)Can Coptic priests or just priests in general and any official members of the church get married ?

In the coptic orthodox church, almost all priests (not deacons and not bishops), who serve in the world, in churches, are married. Some are not and are celibate. Monks are also ordained priests. They are not married as monks and also stay that way after.

qawe · « **Reply #2 on:** March 05, 2013, 12:12:50 AM »

Quote from: minatasgeel on March 04, 2013, 11:57:28 PM

Quote from: Altair91 on March 04, 2013, 11:47:04 PM

there is a lot of issues that I am not so sure and I hope you guys can help!

1-)Can Coptic priests or just priests in general and any official members of the church get married ?
In the coptic orthodox church, almost all priests (not deacons and not bishops), who serve in the world, in churches, are married. Some are not and are celibate. Monks are also ordained priests. They are not married as monks and also stay that way after.

btw this applies to all Orthodox priests, Coptic or not, since we are all one Church

Remnkemi · « **Reply #3 on:** March 05, 2013, 09:11:33 AM »

There are many deacons who are married.

Regarding question #2,
Adam and Eve ate from the forbidden fruit. No one ever explicitly says it was an apple. Second, the punishment is found in Genesis 3:16
"To the woman he said, “I will make your pains in childbearing very severe; with painful labor you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you.”

So I believe the answer to the first part of your question is yes. Women were punished with heavy childbearing as it is written in the Bible. However, no where does it say women were punished with menstruation cycles because of the fall. It may be correlated or implied in Genesis 3:16 but I don't think it is. I think menstruation was a natural product of God's plan for women, not a result of the fall. It is possible that had there been no fall and Eve did not eat the fruit, then childbearing would be painless, which in turn includes menstruation. But this is speculation.

Joshuaa · « **Reply #4 on:** March 05, 2013, 12:45:08 PM »

The word fruit in latin is malum and the word apple in latin is also malum.

Altair91 · « **Reply #5 on:** March 05, 2013, 06:27:15 PM »

Quote from: Remnkemi on March 05, 2013, 09:11:33 AM

There are many deacons who are married.

Regarding question #2,
Adam and Eve ate from the forbidden fruit. No one ever explicitly says it was an apple. Second, the punishment is found in Genesis 3:16
"To the woman he said, “I will make your pains in childbearing very severe; with painful labor you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you.”

So I believe the answer to the first part of your question is yes. Women were punished with heavy childbearing as it is written in the Bible. However, no where does it say women were punished with menstruation cycles because of the fall. It may be correlated or implied in Genesis 3:16 but I don't think it is. I think menstruation was a natural product of God's plan for women, not a result of the fall. It is possible that had there been no fall and Eve did not eat the fruit, then childbearing would be painless, which in turn includes menstruation. But this is speculation.

I think some would disagree with you when it comes to childbearing!

Remnkemi · « **Reply #6 on:** March 06, 2013, 08:26:27 AM »

Disagree with me or Genesis 3:!6? How exactly would they disagree? That heavy childbearing is not a punishment for women?

Joshuaa · « **Reply #7 on:** March 06, 2013, 12:48:00 PM »

Maybe the disagreement is in it being a punishment?

I think the second sentence might explain it more as in it's a marriage and that she turns to her husband in time of pain, and in this case the worst pain for her.

Altair91 · « **Reply #8 on:** March 06, 2013, 09:01:32 PM »

some would disagree that childbearing is punishment for women.Why would God punish a woman that has absolutely nothing to do with Adam and Eve's actions.

minatasgeel · « **Reply #9 on:** March 06, 2013, 09:25:34 PM »

Quote from: Altair91 on March 06, 2013, 09:01:32 PM

some would disagree that childbearing is punishment for women.Why would God punish a woman that has absolutely nothing to do with Adam and Eve's actions.

why concentrate only on women?! why was man punished and told "In toil you shall eat of it All the days of your life. Both thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you, And you shall eat the herb of the field."
if you think about it, that is a much greater "punishment"......atleast child-bearing is only a short period of a women's life.

I wouldn't want to call either 'punishments' but rather the consequence of the absence of God's grace. They were both granted a paradise which they have not worked for. Granted life, food, shelter, being and living in God's love and light. They were so pure that they were naked and felt no shame. When you take away all that, you are left with what you may call, the punishment.

qawe · « **Reply #10 on:** March 07, 2013, 01:33:27 AM »

@minatasgeel: There is no absence of God's grace. The consequence is of sin, whereby death entered into the world.

Joshuaa · « **Reply #11 on:** March 07, 2013, 03:57:28 AM »

Quote from: Altair91 on March 06, 2013, 09:01:32 PM

some would disagree that childbearing is punishment for women.Why would God punish a woman that has absolutely nothing to do with Adam and Eve's actions.

I agree with this.

Adam watchs Eve suffer and though he cannot feel the pain, he can empathise. He suffers with her and for her as she is helpless but relies on him. It maybe an act of righteousness that God has done this. That Adam looks to suffering and that he should protect and rule over the suffering of the weak Eve.

Adam had fallen and with all mankind. God still deals righteously to us and even to judgement day we will be dealt with righteously.
God had come to us in the flesh that we can be judged righteously in perfection. If Adam is the image of God, and God judges us by image, then this is not being righteous in perfection. Is God to judge us by an image of Him? Or would He judge us because He was among us, so then He can claim to judge by a perfect righteousness, for the image in Adam is not sufficent to be judged?

If Jesus Christ did not sin then He did not fall like Adam and so His image is not the same as Adams or any of us so that we may be judged in fairness being exposed to the same temptations of sin, but not falling so is able to protect and to rule over our weakness.

minatasgeel · « **Reply #12 on:** March 07, 2013, 10:15:46 AM »

Genesis - Father Tadros Yacoub Malaty

2. God's Concern for Man (3:8-24)
+ "And they heard the sound of the Lord walking in the garden in the cool of the day" (3:8 ) ... it is the Word ("sound") of God Who descended to us in the midst of His day of love, breaking on us and shining His light over those sitting in darkness (Matthew 4:16) searching for us: "Where are you?" (3:9). He wants us not to be afraid (3:10) but to be with Him.

+ Man blamed someone else (3:12-13): Adam did not say "the woman tempted me" but "gave me" because he knew that what he did was wrong and was for his love of woman which was external to the Lord's commandment, similar to Solomon worshipping the gods of the women he loved (I Kings 11:4); in spite of that, God gave salvation to both sexes: man and woman.

+ Adam blamed God because He created Eve for him (3:12), instead of blaming himself for succumbing to sin. All this did not stop God's stream of love towards him.

+ The first prophecy dealing with the coming of the Savior is: "And I will put enmity between you (the snake) and the woman, and between your seed and her Seed: He shall bruise your head and you shall bruise His heel" (3:15). The Lord Christ came from a woman without a man's seed.

+ Woman's punishment: "I will greatly multiply your sorrow in your conception; in pain you shall bring forth children: and your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you" (3:16). The punishment turned into a blessing, when the new Eve - the church - gave birth to spiritual children of God through her pains (Galatians 4:19), and she longed for her man - the Lord Christ - Who flooded her with love.

+ Man's punishment (3:17-19): The earth (the body) produced thorns and
thistles, as the body lost its holiness and life turned into bitterness. It was said "For dust you are, and to dust you shall return", but regarding the Heavenly Christ we are told "you are a heaven, and to heaven you shall return."

+ God gave them coats of skin not silk, a symbol of the toils of repentance. Perhaps the skin may have come from the sacrifice of a lamb so that God might teach Adam and Eve sacrifice, symbolic of Christ's sacrifice on the cross.

+ In our disobedience we expelled ourselves from paradise, but God gave us back a greater paradise by shedding the Blood of the Incarnate Word of God, for He said "today you will be with me in paradise" (Luke 23:43). God put a cherub on guard after expelling man, until the One who sits on the cherubim came Himself to carry us on his wounded side and allow us entry into the heavenly paradise.

Joshuaa · « **Reply #13 on:** March 07, 2013, 03:40:58 PM »

God bless you minatasgeel. Love it when things are explained in the way of the churches understanding.

Remnkemi · « **Reply #14 on:** March 07, 2013, 04:25:09 PM »

Quote from: Altair91 on March 06, 2013, 09:01:32 PM

some would disagree that childbearing is punishment for women.

Sorry for the confusion. Let me clarify.

1. Childbearing (or birth) is not a punishment for sin.
2. Painful childbearing is a punishment for sin.

I think this is where we are getting hung up.

Quote

Why would God punish a woman that has absolutely nothing to do with Adam and Eve's actions.

Let me clarify some more.
1. Death (or returning to dust) of all humans through the fallen nature is a consequence of the sin Adam committed in paradise.
2. Cursing earth and forcing man to a lifetime of work and toil for food is a second consequence of the sin Adam committed in paradise.
3. Painful childbearing has become part of the fallen nature which is a consequence of the sin Eve committed in paradise.
4. Desire for her husband, complete dependence on men and subordination to men are more consequences of the sin Eve committed in paradise.

It is not right to say we had nothing to do with Adam or Eve's actions. We are not responsible for their actions. We are not guilty of their sin. We don't inherit any sin. We do, however, live with the consequence of their actions. We live with a fallen nature. We live spending our whole lives working and toiling to make a living or suffering for Christ. We live in a society that deceives people to think we have complete independence for family obligations, from subordination of each other, from God. We fool ourselves in thinking modern medicine can make childbearing painless. We even have removed the mother and father from childbearing by artificial insamination and surrogation. We are living with the fallen nature which is a consequence of Adam and Eve's actions.

I hope that clarifies everything.

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Author Topic: Some misconceptions that I have! (Read 837 times)

Altair91

Some misconceptions that I have!

minatasgeel

Re: Some misconceptions that I have!

qawe

Re: Some misconceptions that I have!

Remnkemi

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Joshuaa

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Altair91

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Remnkemi

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Joshuaa

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Altair91

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minatasgeel

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qawe

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Joshuaa

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minatasgeel

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Joshuaa

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Remnkemi

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