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Author Topic: Fraction of Covenant Thursday  (Read 678 times)

Offline coptic pharaoh

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Fraction of Covenant Thursday
« on: February 22, 2012, 01:44:33 AM »
Hello,

So I was looking around on YouTube, and I came along a Fraction for Covenant Thursday that is not the "normal" one that is usually said during Covenant Thursday.. Here's the link for it.. it is quite amazing:
Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZWxgci1T-8&feature=channel
Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccip5hIfGnA&feature=related

I found the text for it in Arabic on St-Takla.org, and on there it says that this is a "non-canonical" fraction... Here's the text:

و حدث فى الأيام التى أراد الله أن يجرب ابراهيم و يعلم قلبه و محبته فيه. أنه قال له, ابراهيم ابراهيم خذ ابنك الحبيب اسحق و قدمة لى محرقة على الجبل الذى أعلمك بة. فقام ابراهيم باكرا و أسرج دابتة و أخذ غلامين و اسحق ابنة, و أخذ سكينا و نارا, و مشى على الأرض, فرأى الموضع من بعيد الذى أعلمة به الرب. فقال لغلامية اجلسا أنتما ههنا مع الدابة. و أما أنا و اسحق ابنى فنذهب و نسجد ثم نرجع اليكما. و أخذ ابراهيم حطب المحرقة و وضعه على اسحق ابنة, و أخذ بيدة النار و السكين. فقال اسحق لأبيه يا أبتاه هوذا النار و الحطب و أين الخروف الذى تقدمه للمحرقه, فقال له ابراهيم ان الله الذى أمرنا أن نرفع له ذبيحه هو يرى حملا لة للمحرقه يا ابنى. و أخذ ابراهيم حجارة و بنى مذبحا, و أخذ الحطب و رفعه على المذبح, و أخذ اسحق ابنة و ربطه و وضعه على المذبح, و أخذ السكين ليذبحه. و ان ملاك الرب نادى ابراهيم قائلا لة: ابراهيم ابراهيم انظر لا تلمس فتاك و لا تصنع به شرا. لما نظر الرب محبتك فيه فقال انى أنا هو الرب الهك أقسمت بذاتى انى بالبركة أباركك و بالكثرة أكثر نسلك. فرفع ابراهيم عينية فنظر خروفا عند الشجرة موثقا بقرنية, فترك اسحق ابنة و أخذ الخروف و أصعده محرقه عوضا عنه. فذبح اسحق كان اشارة الى هرق دم المسيح ابن الله على الصليب عن خلاص العالم. و كما حمل اسحق حطب المحرقه كذلك حمل المسيح خشبة الصليب. و كما رجع اسحق حيا هكذا أيضا المسيح قام حيا من الأموات و ظهر لتلاميذة القديسين. اللهم الذى قبل ذبيحة أبينا ابراهيم, اقبل هذة الذبيحة منا فى هذة الساعه. بارك هذة القرابين بارك الذين قدمت عنهم. نيح نفوس الأموات. فليبارك المسيح على قلوبنا جميعا و أرواحنا. لكى بقلب طاهر و نفس مستنيرة و وجه غير مخزى و ايمان بلا رياء و محبه كاملة و رجاء ثابت. نجسر بداله بغير خوف أن ندعوك يا الله الآب القدوس الذى فى السموات و نقول: أبانا الذي في السموات
http://st-takla.org/Lyrics-Spiritual-Songs/Words-of-Coptic-Alhan-Tasbeha-Kodas/Arabic-Coptic-Liturgy-Lyrics/5-Al-Kesam-Prayers/09-Kesmet-Khamis-El-3ahd.html

I was just wondering if any of you guys could clear up why we never use this Fraction, about its "validity" and all that..

Thanks,
Have a Blessed Lent

Coptic Pharaoh
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فَمَاذَا يَنْتَفِعُ الإِنْسَانُ لَوْ رَبِحَ الْعَالَمَ كُلَّهُ وَخَسِرَ نَفْسَهُ؟   Matthew 16:26

Offline imikhail

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Re: Fraction of Covenant Thursday
« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2012, 06:34:01 AM »
The other version is not canonized.
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Offline ilovesaintmark

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Re: Fraction of Covenant Thursday
« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2012, 06:52:13 AM »
Judging by the recording (not that I am an authority), this is an old recording and from an era where some clergy would introduce different things as being a "renaisance or revival" without having a canonical basis.  His Holiness, along with the pronouncements of the Holy Synod, have made it clear that no "new" or "revitalized" portions should be introduced into the Rites and Liturgies without review from the Holy Synod.

YouTube is not a source nor a sanctioned entity for any aspect of canonicity.  There are a lot of mavericks on the site and some even have their own undisclosed or "hidden" agenda...beware.
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Let us pray fervently for our Holy Father:  Pope Shenouda III; the Lord preserve his life for many peaceful years and cast his enemies and the enemies of the Church under his feet.

Is there a time when the Lord does not bless us?  No, He Blesses--always.

Offline coptic pharaoh

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Re: Fraction of Covenant Thursday
« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2012, 01:53:02 PM »
But there are multiple priest praying it, not just one... Like where does stuff like this come from? they're not gonna just make it up... it's gotta be written somewhere, and was probably used at some point in time, right?

I know it's not canonical and we can't use it and all.. but does anyone know about its history maybe?
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فَمَاذَا يَنْتَفِعُ الإِنْسَانُ لَوْ رَبِحَ الْعَالَمَ كُلَّهُ وَخَسِرَ نَفْسَهُ؟   Matthew 16:26

Offline ilovesaintmark

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Re: Fraction of Covenant Thursday
« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2012, 02:31:23 PM »
There are a whole list of reasons for these things as they happen, none of which are require a long-winded listing.

I would say my above post covers the issue without touching on extended babbling.
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Let us pray fervently for our Holy Father:  Pope Shenouda III; the Lord preserve his life for many peaceful years and cast his enemies and the enemies of the Church under his feet.

Is there a time when the Lord does not bless us?  No, He Blesses--always.

Offline imikhail

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Re: Fraction of Covenant Thursday
« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2012, 02:58:09 PM »
Quote from: coptic pharaoh on February 22, 2012, 01:53:02 PM
But there are multiple priest praying it, not just one... Like where does stuff like this come from? they're not gonna just make it up... it's gotta be written somewhere, and was probably used at some point in time, right?

I know it's not canonical and we can't use it and all.. but does anyone know about its history maybe?

This particular Fraction was used in Upper Egypt and found it way to lower Egypt. Howevr, we should follow the canonized prayers.
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Offline Christs' servant

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Re: Fraction of Covenant Thursday
« Reply #6 on: February 23, 2012, 09:31:27 AM »
Is that Fr Matta the Poor (El-Meskeen) praying the fraction??
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Offline coptic pharaoh

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Re: Fraction of Covenant Thursday
« Reply #7 on: February 23, 2012, 07:02:02 PM »
Thank you, imikhail.. that's the kind of answer I was waiting for.. I am not saying we should use it or anything, I just wanted to know it's origin, or where it was used and all that..

and I believe it is being prayed by Abouna Stephanous Rizk in the recording, but I could be wrong, Christ's Servant..

finally, thank you ilovesaintmark for your replies.. I was however looking for some more "extended babbling" :P I usually like to know the reasons why everything the way it is, if it is at all possible.. that's why I started this topic.. I know it's not canonical and that it isnt prayed, I just wanted to know why, that's all.. but what you said was fine.. Thanks!

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فَمَاذَا يَنْتَفِعُ الإِنْسَانُ لَوْ رَبِحَ الْعَالَمَ كُلَّهُ وَخَسِرَ نَفْسَهُ؟   Matthew 16:26

Offline coptic pharaoh

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Re: Fraction of Covenant Thursday
« Reply #8 on: February 23, 2012, 10:10:59 PM »
I found this... http://tasbeha.org/content/community/index.php?topic=8321.0

In it minatasgeel says that it's "valid"...
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فَمَاذَا يَنْتَفِعُ الإِنْسَانُ لَوْ رَبِحَ الْعَالَمَ كُلَّهُ وَخَسِرَ نَفْسَهُ؟   Matthew 16:26
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