(EDITTED: TAKE A LOOK) I am on the boarder line of Aithiesm. EDITED: TAKE A LOOK

[DC]

But guys, whenever I debate over this with an atheist/agnostic, I always feel like I "lose"

Guys, I read everyones post, but idk what to do anymore, please just give me something I can put in my mind when i have these doubts.

Thanks in Advance

[mikeforjesus]

I found this sermon online. I believe faith does not come from ourselves but God gives it.  And we should not doubt that God is good and able to save everyone.


from
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Ithaca/1506/trans-b.htm

"Faith/Doubt"
Mark 9:2-9

We human beings are a strange mixture of belief and doubt. We say we believe something, but there is always doubt present. I guess it is part of being human. The Bible says we see only in part now as through a dark glass. We can't understand everything in the world around us. So we are always questioning what we believe to be the truth. I guess faith and doubt are like two sides of a coin. Without one the other would be meaningless.

But thank God we still venture to believe despite our doubts. Even though we can't see God, some of us still believe that God exists. Despite all the evil in the world we still believe that God is in control and that God is good. If we do not admit however that we have doubts then we are fooling ourselves.

One day a man came to Jesus. He was a leper and wanted to be healed. Jesus asked him if he believed. He said, "Yes Lord I believe. Help my unbelief." He was honest with Jesus and we should follow his example. We need to admit that we are all a mixture of doubt and belief.

Jesus' disciples were no different. They believed and yet they doubted also. One day Jesus asked them who people were saying he was. They said, "Some say Elijah or John the Baptist come back." Then Jesus said, "Who do you say I am?" And Peter said, "You are the Messiah." He believed in Jesus and was the first disciples to say so out loud.

But then Jesus started saying that he must go to Jerusalem to be rejected and killed. Peter didn't like the sound of this. He probably began to doubt not only Jesus' divinity but his sanity as well. Mark says that Peter took Jesus aside and rebuked him. He didn't merely ask for a clarification of something he had trouble understanding. He rebuked Jesus and told him he was wrong. If Peter believed without a doubt that Jesus was the Messiah, he would have accepted whatever Jesus said as the Gospel truth. But he questioned what Jesus told him and doubted.

This incident demonstrates that Peter, the chief apostle, was a mixture of belief and doubt. Don't misunderstand. Peter did believe. He honestly believed that Jesus was the Messiah. But at the same time he doubted. He questioned the truth of Jesus' teaching when it didn't make perfect sense to him.

Peter and the other disciples had to live with this mixture of faith and doubt just as all humans do. So Jesus took them on a journey to help them grow in faith. It took six days of walking to reach the destination: a mountain. Then Jesus took three of the disciples: Peter, James and John up a mountain to pray. Some scholars believe that this mountain was Mt. Hebron. Mt. Hebron is 9200 feet up and its summit is always covered with snow.

So it was quite a hike to the top. At the top something happened. Jesus was transfigured. His clothes became an unearthly white and his face glowed. Moses and Elijah were standing there with him as a testimony to Jesus' holiness. Then a voice came from heaven and said, "This is my Beloved Son, do as he says."

I believe that this happened to confirm their faith. They believed that Jesus was the Messiah but at the same time they probably wondered if he was not mistaken about going to Jerusalem to die. But despite their doubt they followed Jesus to the mountain. They even hiked to the top of a high cold mountain. And God showed them that Jesus was the Messiah, and their faith was strengthened.

Like the disciples you and I are a mixture of belief and doubt. If we are honest with ourselves we can all join that leper in saying, "Lord I believe. Help my unbelief." Even faithful people, like the apostle Peter, have doubts. "Lord I believe. Help my unbelief." That is the prayer of a true disciple. Anything less is a failure to be honest with ourselves and with God.

We all have doubts, and one of the main areas of doubt is that Jesus actually is the Son of God. Like Peter people say Jesus is the Messiah, but they doubt at the same time. Many people say they believe that Jesus is the son of God, but they have never committed their lives to him. They accept the historical premise that Jesus is God's Son. But they are unwilling to base their lives on that. Many who say they believe Jesus is the Son of God are unwilling to set aside the time to worship him on a regular basis. They believe, but not enough to give up a hour a week for study and worship. Or to give some time to him in prayer or service. But all of us have some level of doubt. Even those who have committed their lives fully to Christ have room to grow. No matter how deep our faith in Christ is, there are always new depths to discover.

And yet Jesus' sonship is at the cornerstone of our faith. Maybe that is why people have doubts about Jesus from time to time. After all if he was only a great moral teacher and not the only begotten Son of God, then his teachings are no more important than say Buddha's. There were many healers in Jesus day. If he was not God's son than he was just another healer. If he was not God's son than he could not have died for our sins and we would have to rely on our own moral ability and good works to save us. And we know no one is saved by works. Perhaps people doubt Jesus' divinity because it is so central to our faith.

We all have doubts. When you have doubts, just follow Jesus anyway. There are some people who believe they should just sit still until they get it all figured out. They say they will start going to church after they are finished reading the Bible and understand it. Or they won't make a commitment to Christ until they are free of all doubts. It'll never happen!

That's not the way Jesus works. When Jesus called Peter and the others, he didn't say come and I will explain everything to you then we will minister. He said, "Follow me and I will make you fish for people." Christians learn on their feet while they walk. Jesus believes in on-the-job training. Every Christian needs to take classes, but we also need to sign up for an internship. We must follow to learn and grow. If we try to learn it all then follow, we will never learn a thing.

Have you ever heard the saying, "If you want to have faith, live as if you had it." That doesn't mean that you should put on a religious show as if you had faith. It is saying that we should step out in faith especially when we doubt. Because it is only when we step out in faith that our faith is verified and our doubts are quieted.

Step out in faith like Peter, James and John. They doubted, yet they followed Jesus up that mountain and their faith was confirmed and strengthened. In the same way follow Jesus up the mountain. Even though it seems an uphill struggle and your doubts nag at you continue to step out in faith. And you will see for yourself that Jesus is the Beloved Son of God.

[NorthStar]

But guys, whenever I debate over this with an atheist/agnostic, I always feel like I "lose"

Guys, I read everyones post, but idk what to do anymore, please just give me something I can put in my mind when i have these doubts.

Thanks in Advance

Can you be more specific? What are you debating? (evolution?) Why are you debating it in the first place when at least in Pope Shenouda's opinion, you can be Coptic Orthodox AND believe in evolution? What is the benefit of debating it, and who are these "experts" on evolution? Friends of yours who went to class? Or real scientists?

IMO, if you're debating that the earth is only 6000 years old, you are going to lose. I know others on here disagree with that, and that's fine, but speaking from a purely scientific POV, you WILL lose that argument because multiple independent fields of science all draw the same conclusions, and all do so independently of one another. So you cannot "win" that argument. However, the world is not just made up of scientific facts and laws, there are things like philosophy and purpose that science has not grasp on, and anyone who says it does, is being radically unscientific.

However, what is the reason THEY are debating YOU? To talk you out of belief, and faith? Why would they do that? By that I mean ASK them why they would want to destroy someones faith?  I bet it's so they can "win" a debate. The problem is they're not being truly scientific by trying to WIN a debate. That's not what science is, and they aren't anymore qualified to preach evolution to you, than I am qualified to teach Arabic to my parents. (I speak ZERO Arabic)

I think the best thing for you to do is first, try to avoid these "debates", at least for awhile. because these people are probably your friends, and you're all simply just learning about this subject.

And two, read up on the subject for yourself. You need to be informed, and read books, articles and theological papers, and even the scientific understanding and then draw your own conclusions. I can tell you one thing, someone else can tell you another, but in the end it's up to you.

If your doubts are really coming down to this one single subject, then I think my previous posts are right on. There's nothing to debate, because you can be Orthodox and accept evolutionary theory. There is no gulf or separation here. Now you may in fact believe the earth is 6000 years old, and that's fine, many Orthodox do believe it, and many Church fathers did as well (though not all), but in the end, it shouldn't affect your faith. Because either view is acceptable. Only in certain forms of Protestantism are Christians required to take the beginning of Genesis literally. Unless you're of these certain protestant groups, there shouldn't be a problem.

Science is the study of WHAT happens in God's creation, but it says nothing about "why" it happens, or it's purpose. This is something modern science by it's very nature will never be able to do. And even the most "secular" people are on a quest for "enlightenment" and "knowledge" , that's why things like Kabalah (improperly removed from it's traditional religious context) is so popular with so many Americans, even secular Americans. Because science only answers question about one aspect of God's creation, the material, but not all aspects.

I really think you need to read a couple books on the subject. One I recommend is titled "Beauty and Unity in Creation" by Gayle Woloschak, (Minneapolis: Light and Life, 1996) — Primer on the relationship between evolutionary biology and Orthodoxy by a scientist. ISBN 1880971275

it's an easy read written by a biologist who is Orthodox.

A good article showing how St. Basil the Great didn't take Genesis literally, is The Six Dawns, which can be found here:
http://www.zephyr.gr/stjohn/sixdawn1.htm

It's LONG, really a booklet, but it's free, and takes a more patristic and theological approach as opposed to scientific.

Another website is from an Antiochian priest:

http://antiochabouna.blogspot.com/2006/02/orthodoxy-and-creationism.html

And from a Russian deacon:

http://www.hvmla.org/library/evolution.html

I still cannot remember which book Pope Shenouda wrote about this subject in, but I'm trying to find it.

In the mean time, a Coptic POV is here:

http://www.stmaryscopticorthodox.ca/media/media_sermons/sermon_sci/sermon_sci.html

Fr. Athanasius Iskander is a respected priest and while I didn't listen to all of these lectures, I think he takes a more literal approach to Genesis, but doesn't rule out that the earth may be older than 6000 years. I think he also gets into "flood geology" which I don't particularly agree with, however it is probably more in line with what you might already believe. However I haven't listened to the whole thing, so I do not know how strong his science is. But I highly respect him and so that's why I posted.

In the end, if your doubts are more about general doubts, that's a different subject. But I don't think there are any magic bible verses that can make you believe. Just keep in mind many saints doubted, St. Thomas doubted, but sometimes we make too much of doubt. Are you still praying? Even if you have mental doubts, and yet you still pray, then you still have faith. Faith is more than a thought, it's an action. So even when mental doubts come to mind, don't give up. Push on through, and God will, I believe, reward you with greater faith on the other side.

[DC]

EDIT: I WOULD LOVE if people would post links to Audio Lectures and Sermons about Weak Faith. Sorry if I'm bothing you, but I really need this right now. Reading the books and lectures by word isnt helping me too much for some reason.


GOD bless you all

[mabsoota]

ok, i had a quick look on the internet and found this:
http://www.coloradocopts.org/index.php?option=com_docman&Itemid=207
the church seems to be nice (i don't know it) and the priest there has worked at one time in the diocese of my bishop, so i am sure he is very cool!
there are some sermons in arabic and some in english
God bless u brother

[the_least]

i just searched up "faith" on orthodoxsermons.org and this is what came up... some of the titles look pretty interesting

http://www.orthodoxsermons.org/index.php?option=com_docman&task=search_result

[the_least]

ok, that didn't work.... when you click on that url, just type "faith" and press search

[Sheep Among Wolves]

http://tasbeha.org/mp3/Sermons/00.HH_Pope_Shenouda_III/Spiritual.html

try this

PLEASE you are not bothering anyone this is our purpose as brothers and sisters

I PROMISE YOU that we will not let you fall into atheism because we are here

ask me ANYTHING at all and i'll find it

i would love to be part of saving a spirit of God's child

[the_least]

Sheep Among Wolves, you're absolutely right.

everyone here is benefiting. we are benefiting because we are serving which also leads to learning; and you are benefiting because you are learning.

thus, not only should you thank us, but we should also thank you for providing us with the opportunity to serve.

thats why i like to contribute even it it's not much

[mikeforjesus]

http://www.orthodoxsermons.org/index.php?option=com_docman&task=search_result

Type doubt in search word

[Remenjwili]

But guys, whenever I debate over this with an atheist/agnostic, I always feel like I "lose"

Guys, I read everyones post, but idk what to do anymore, please just give me something I can put in my mind when i have these doubts.

Thanks in Advance

Whenever I have doubts, I always go back to Zeitun. What happened at Zeitun in 1968 cannot be explained naturally.
Several thousand eyewitnesses all report the same thing i.e. a luminous woman floating above the dome and various other things that happened once or twice like stars forming around her head and the smell of incense. Of all the thousands of witnesses (whether Christian, muslim or atheist) not ONE gives an account that is not supernatural. It got so big that even the Egyptian government got involved.
So in the face of that overwhelming evidence, there are only two possibilities:
Either it was a hoax, or it really was supernatural.
I recently read an article about how a couple of Japanese students have invented a machine capable of producing a hologram. It takes TONNES of energy, and calling it a hologram is being generous, the best it can produce is few shining dots. 40 years after Zeitun, that is the best we can do. In 1968 in Egypt, it would have been IMPOSSIBLE to project a 3 dimensional image of Mary that walked and moved atop the church LET ALONE make doves that materialise and dissappear and re-arrange the stars behind her head. The Egyptian Government searched the area thoroughly for any sort of projection device and found nothing.

There really is no rational, natural explanation for what happened there. I've brought that up several times in discussions. I've never heard a decent answer. Actually come to think of it, I've never got an answer at all, they've always just dodged the question.

Hope that helps

[NorthStar]

EDIT: I WOULD LOVE if people would post links to Audio Lectures and Sermons about Weak Faith. Sorry if I'm bothing you, but I really need this right now. Reading the books and lectures by word isnt helping me too much for some reason.


GOD bless you all

The lectures I posted by Fr. Iskander are audio lectures, just in case you didn't realize.

For lectures about doubt/faith in general, try this link:

http://www.orthodoxsermons.org/index.php?option=com_docman&task=cat_view&gid=136&Itemid=26

I don't know if it will be a direct link, but there are 4 or 5 lectures there about doubt, faith etc...

Another link to more is here:

http://www.orthodoxsermons.org/index.php?option=com_docman&task=cat_view&gid=48&Itemid=26&limit=50&limitstart=0&order=hits&dir=ASC

These were quick searches and I've only listened to maybe one or two, but this should get you on a good start. I suggest that if he's got any audio files there, listen to Fr. Anthony Messeh (sp?) as I think his speaking style, experience and his work with young people will be of great benefit to you in this area. He's quite energetic, but seems to have a real world experience which i think will be helpful to you.

Hope these help, and as others have said, you're not bothering us, hopefully we can help!

[user00]

Dimyan,

It's quite obvious that the devil is trying to destroy your faith... are you going to let him?

I know sometimes we all have doubts or despair or feel hopeless.. but we have to remember that God is the first one cheering us on in our race, followed by the saints. We must through many tribulations enter the kingdom of God.

You must know in your heart that God is God and that He is working in your life. Think of  an accident you had and you could have died, and yet, you live. Think of the times you were alone or depressed and God helped you and gave you strength and hope.

I know you said reading doesn't help you-- but please trying reading Confessions of St. Augustine. It is exactly what the title says- confessions. It is beautiful, although the beginning is a bit slow.

Also, here is a link for a few series of sermons. I haven't heard them all, but I always love Abouna Anthony's sermons. God bless and keep fighting:

http://www.orthodoxsermons.org/index.php?option=com_docman&task=cat_view&gid=21&Itemid=26

[Hos Erof]

For any doubters of faith, you might want to read the book "the case for faith" by Lee Strobel, i don't necessarily agree with every single thing it says, but it's a good defense of faith.
Another amazing philosopher who's famous for his debates pro-theism is william lane craig. You'll find his video's on youtube. He wrote a lot of books (one i'm reading now is "reasonable faith") on this topic. He actually uses science to PROVE there HAS to be a God. Also from the moral point of view he builds a solid case for faith. Moreover, he debates tough issues such as evil, pain, suffering etc. A quick search on youtube should direct you towards his video's.

Try this for a starter!
Is Life Without God Absurd?

[John_S2000]

There is also this very strong proof (link below) that helped me and others.
It has to be followed from part 1 to part 3 to understand it correctly.
It is a very condensed presentation of a great book by a good scientist author.
I also advise you to get yourself a copy of the originals if you can.

This serious research is based on the total impossibility of spontaneous occurrence of even the simplest strand of genetic code sequence (RNA or DNA).

Beware that some people when understanding this try to turn to another theory called "alien seeding" to support their logic. Their alien idea is inconsistent because aliens (if they exist) necessarily would be creatures that must had been created by a Creator.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/media/video/ondemand/beginning-was-information/beginning-was-information

Hope this helped.
GBU