You didn't answer my question, and if you did, your answer is not satisfactory.
I assure you that the verses of the cymbals is chanted in many churches during the weekday Lent liturgies because those attending do not know "Kiriye Eleyson". There is absolutely nothing "wrong" with that.
1) A bishop is receiving greetings after the sermon on the Nativity Feast. The deacons decide to chant doxologies for the Nativity along with other chants from Matins. The rite of the Nativity states nowhere that those can be said at that time. Now what? Did the deacons err because they did that? Should they have just stayed silent? Should the bishop have quickly silenced them because the rites do not state that?
2) The priest decides to pray inaudibly for 20 minutes or so after the offeratory. The deacons don't know Alle- Al Qurban or Api Nav Shopi. They do know the Hymn of the Blessing and Hail Mary. Do they say those hymns or just allow for silence for twenty minutes?
3) A bishop sets up the Aspasmos Adam and Watos on a Feast day. The deacons don't know the appropriate Aspasmos and perhaps do not have enough experience to be able to install the tune on the appropriate Aspasmos. The bishop knows they don't know the appropriate Aspasmos and knows they will chant the year-round ones. Has the bishop erred in this case? Have the deacons just committed a flagrant violation of the rites of the church?
Dear SWMSANMG,In some people's arrogant attitude, there is no time to learn appropriate hymns, because we know it all.. the examples, or rather the questions you gave, ought to be exceptions but if they were the norm, and no one takes a proper stance then that is completelywrong.. if I don't know something, I should stay silent, and not invent, or ad-lib.. someone else may know.. if they don't, however, then we all strive to be betterOujai
Mina,What is more concerning to me than what is said when is the attitude that deacons who have more knowledge of hymns take against their fellow deacons.
Starting with your first response:"just wait embarrassingly for abouna to finish the procession"I thought that might just be some humor until I saw your most recent post that suggests that those who chant the verses of the cymbals instead of "Kiriye Eleyson" have sinned.
There are numerous flaws in the way of thinking that is presented in your response.
Also, I am not sure what you mean that the deacons are "allowed to add the gospel responses...".
" Deacons are getting lazy everyday being without struggle. their life is filled with worldly things (not necessarily wrong doings) that there is less time to God"I would recommend not jumping to conclusions like that. A deacon who does not know certain hymns is not necessarily lazy. Do we know with certainty that deacon is not out serving the community, visiting the sick, evangelizing, assisting the priest, cleaning the church. Is that not the call of a deacon as well? Should a deacon who does all of these things be embarassed, ashamed, and considered lazy for not knowing a hymn? Should that deacon forego ministering to the infirm in order to learn the melismatic Teoi Enhikanos instead?
Since you place great importance on sources. Please cite your sources for what you stated above. Where does it say you can add verses for saints on Feasts such as the Nativity? How about doxologies? What is your source for that?
And what is a quality source anyhow? In academia we consider peer reviewed articles from quality journals to be good sources. How would you define a quality source here? Be careful how you answer.
My point is that not all of the rites of the church are as absolute as you present them.
You were critical of saying a hymn that was already said earlier in the Liturgy but aren't the doxologies already prayed in Matins? What if the deacons said Glory to You O Lord Sabaoth, a hymn for Matins, after the Gospel response.
You said: "not ..................How about all of the hymns that are chanted in English and Arabic during communion? Did the "fathers" state that we can say these? Did they approve each one by name or make a blanket written statement saying that any future hymns composed for communion are acceptable? Who are the "fathers" anyway? Are they defined by a specific time period? Was every hymn written or approved by the "fathers"?
The cymbals are not played during the weekdays. What, then, gives the jurisdiction to chant the verses of the CYMBALS (which are chanted in a joyful tune annually)? Is not silence more fitting for the day than a joyful hymn?
Quote from: Amdah on February 19, 2012, 10:21:20 PMHow about for kirie eleison arba3 el naqoos... What to do there if we don't know it?also nothing......say kerie leison and then ethrenhoos in the slowest way possible and just wait embarrassingly for abouna to finish the procession.
How about for kirie eleison arba3 el naqoos... What to do there if we don't know it?
Well said morcousw.. the rites are there are no cymbals, so how is it fitting to sing the verses of cymbals?
I want to clear up a misconception about hymns. There are no sorrowful hymns in the Church but 5 main melodies or tunes: Annual, Kiahk, Lenten, paschal, and festal.
Explain to me why it is acceptable for you to recommend that the last verse of the verses of the cymbals be chanted but not any others? This is where your logic breaks down. You consider a quality source as coming from a book or a cantor.