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[ophadece]

Dear SWMSANMG,
In some people's arrogant attitude, there is no time to learn appropriate hymns, because we know it all.. the examples, or rather the questions you gave, ought to be exceptions but if they were the norm, and no one takes a proper stance then that is completelywrong.. if I don't know something, I should stay silent, and not invent, or ad-lib.. someone else may know.. if they don't, however, then we all strive to be better
Oujai

[minatasgeel]

You didn't answer my question, and if you did, your answer is not satisfactory.

Yes i didn't simply because through that logic we can anything we want at all time--the logic of "if this hymn is not wrong, we can say it whenever we can." almost everything we say in the church includes the Holy Trinity in a way or another. not only the subject of the hymns that matters and the timing of everything that is said where our Church Fathers clearly set for us. They did give us some freedom in what to say.....but in our case here, we have none.

I assure you that the verses of the cymbals is chanted in many churches during the weekday Lent liturgies because those attending do not know "Kiriye Eleyson". There is absolutely nothing "wrong" with that.

it is wrong to do so. I am not responsible for other people's mistakes. assure me or not, it doesn't change anything.

We need to stop covering our own sins with misconceptions.

1) A bishop is receiving greetings after the sermon on the Nativity Feast. The deacons decide to chant doxologies for the Nativity along with other chants from Matins. The rite of the Nativity states nowhere that those can be said at that time. Now what? Did the deacons err because they did that? Should they have just stayed silent? Should the bishop have quickly silenced them because the rites do not state that?

in this case, the deacons are allow to add to the gospel responses of liturgies if they are appropriate.

2) The priest decides to pray inaudibly for 20 minutes or so after the offeratory. The deacons don't know Alle- Al Qurban or Api Nav Shopi. They do know the Hymn of the Blessing and Hail Mary. Do they say those hymns or just allow for silence for twenty minutes?

this is trouble mistake of course. the chosen lamb bread is on the altar, the priest chooses to contemplate on that point of time in silence (even if it was hours) and you choose to say shere maria and Teno-osht that were already said in the liturgy?!

3) A bishop sets up the Aspasmos Adam and Watos on a Feast day. The deacons don't know the appropriate Aspasmos and perhaps do not have enough experience to be able to install the tune on the appropriate Aspasmos. The bishop knows they don't know the appropriate Aspasmos and knows they will chant the year-round ones. Has the bishop erred in this case? Have the deacons just committed a flagrant violation of the rites of the church?

depending on the occasion, this maybe allowed. but in general it is wrong. and wait, why didn't the deacons learn the aspasmos in advance....don't they have ears to listen with? don't they have 30 mins to learn an aspsamos?

This all gets back to how LAZY deacons and servants in general are becoming in Church. even thought we have the SIMPLEST duties......chanting hymns, alhan that we as believers in general should be doing all the time. We are actually doing the people's job in the liturgy, not ours. we like to wear a tonia, stand in Church and not do what that tonia require us to do.

[SWMSANMG]

Dear SWMSANMG,
In some people's arrogant attitude, there is no time to learn appropriate hymns, because we know it all.. the examples, or rather the questions you gave, ought to be exceptions but if they were the norm, and no one takes a proper stance then that is completelywrong.. if I don't know something, I should stay silent, and not invent, or ad-lib.. someone else may know.. if they don't, however, then we all strive to be better
Oujai

Ophadece,

In the case where someone does know the appropriate hymns, I agree that those who do not know it should yield. The "Kirye Eleyson" example, should also be an exception in that it is omitted because all of those attending do not know it.

[SWMSANMG]

Mina,

What is more concerning to me than what is said when is the attitude that deacons who have more knowledge of hymns take against their fellow deacons. Starting with your first response:

"just wait embarrassingly for abouna to finish the procession"

I thought that might just be some humor until I saw your most recent post that suggests that those who chant the verses of the cymbals instead of "Kiriye Eleyson" have sinned.

There are numerous flaws in the way of thinking that is presented in your response.

Also, I am not sure what you mean that the deacons are "allowed to add the gospel responses...".

[minatasgeel]

Mina,
What is more concerning to me than what is said when is the attitude that deacons who have more knowledge of hymns take against their fellow deacons.

I am not taking a stand against the deacons but I am against a specific mentality and a reality that needs to be changed. Deacons are getting lazy everyday being without struggle. their life is filled with worldly things (not necessarily wrong doings) that there is less time to God....and even when they say we have to separate time to God, they consider their time in church that time. This is the Devil's play--"you are good enough that way and you don’t need to do more" is what he rings in our minds all the time when we think about doing more and going deeper into our worship to God. WE NEED TO PRESENT OUR BEST TO GOD IN EVERY ASPECT OF OUR LIVES: faith, worship, hymns, charity, service.....ANYTHING WE DO IN HIS NAME!!!

Starting with your first response:

"just wait embarrassingly for abouna to finish the procession"

I thought that might just be some humor until I saw your most recent post that suggests that those who chant the verses of the cymbals instead of "Kiriye Eleyson" have sinned.

I wasn't being humorous.....i said that in all seriousness....i was in that position more than once. It is embarrassing. That simply forced me to learn the hymn (most of it in the beginning). The rule is set where I have no margin of choice. If I have fallen short from that expectations that I will never cover that wrongdoing with another. I believe that is clear enough to follow.

There are numerous flaws in the way of thinking that is presented in your response.

Some time I am a little extreme in things that are definite and clear enough to follow. If we can't follow the simplest of rules set to us by our Church Fathers, how will we excel to the status where we do the greater rules? How can an epsaltos learn azpasezte el-kebera while he doesn't know: epros eviksaste eperto agio evangelio??

In general though, I consider myself moderate....read my previous posts.....

Also, I am not sure what you mean that the deacons are "allowed to add the gospel responses...".

There are set Gospel response(s) to be said in the liturgy depending on the occasion. The deacons, if they have time, may add other responses appropriately to that which has to be said. appropriately meaning the added responses must follow the theme of the occasion. Examples:
- Saying parts of the doxologies of the occasion are great since they follow the same theme.
- Adding parts of different saints in the annual gospel response.
- Adding parts for the pope and the bishops. 

[SWMSANMG]

" Deacons are getting lazy everyday being without struggle. their life is filled with worldly things (not necessarily wrong doings) that there is less time to God"

I would recommend not jumping to conclusions like that. A deacon who does not know certain hymns is not necessarily lazy. Do we know with certainty that deacon is not out serving the community, visiting the sick, evangelizing, assisting the priest, cleaning the church. Is that not the call of a deacon as well? Should a deacon who does all of these things be embarassed, ashamed, and considered lazy for not knowing a hymn? Should that deacon forego ministering to the infirm in order to learn the melismatic Teoi Enhikanos instead?

"There are set Gospel response(s) to be said in the liturgy depending on the occasion. The deacons, if they have time, may add other responses appropriately to that which has to be said. appropriately meaning the added responses must follow the theme of the occasion. Examples:
- Saying parts of the doxologies of the occasion are great since they follow the same theme.
- Adding parts of different saints in the annual gospel response.
"

Since you place great importance on sources. Please cite your sources for what you stated above. Where does it say you can add verses for saints on Feasts such as the Nativity? How about doxologies? What is your source for that? And what is a quality source anyhow? In academia we consider peer reviewed articles from quality journals to be good sources. How would you define a quality source here? Be careful how you answer. My point is that not all of the rites of the church are as absolute as you present them.

You were critical of saying a hymn that was already said earlier in the Liturgy but aren't the doxologies already prayed in Matins? What if the deacons said Glory to You O Lord Sabaoth, a hymn for Matins, after the Gospel response.

You said: "not only the subject of the hymns that matters and the timing of everything that is said where our Church Fathers clearly set for us. They did give us some freedom in what to say.....but in our case here, we have none"

How about all of the hymns that are chanted in English and Arabic during communion? Did the "fathers" state that we can say these? Did they approve each one by name or make a blanket written statement saying that any future hymns composed for communion are acceptable? Who are the "fathers" anyway?  Are they defined by a specific time period? Was every hymn written or approved by the "fathers"?

[minatasgeel]

" Deacons are getting lazy everyday being without struggle. their life is filled with worldly things (not necessarily wrong doings) that there is less time to God"

I would recommend not jumping to conclusions like that. A deacon who does not know certain hymns is not necessarily lazy. Do we know with certainty that deacon is not out serving the community, visiting the sick, evangelizing, assisting the priest, cleaning the church. Is that not the call of a deacon as well? Should a deacon who does all of these things be embarassed, ashamed, and considered lazy for not knowing a hymn? Should that deacon forego ministering to the infirm in order to learn the melismatic Teoi Enhikanos instead?

Services are many we MUST do what we entrusted with first/ what we are responsible for and then wonder else where and do what we want. If he is not a deacon, that he has nothing to be embarrassed about. it's not his duty to do so.

Since you place great importance on sources. Please cite your sources for what you stated above. Where does it say you can add verses for saints on Feasts such as the Nativity? How about doxologies? What is your source for that?

I guess i didn't make myself clear enough since i didn't this it will be important to discuss specifics.....you cannot add saints gospel verses to any occasion's response. My point that there are some cases where you have the choice to add....here, specifically in the Kerie Leison, we cannot.

And what is a quality source anyhow? In academia we consider peer reviewed articles from quality journals to be good sources. How would you define a quality source here? Be careful how you answer.

A source refers to a written book....an article approved by some clergy member in the Church. being that we are considering hymns and how little we written about them, I would have to add a cantors teaching as a "quality source."

My point is that not all of the rites of the church are as absolute as you present them.

Who said they are absolute?! i present this teaching of not saying the verses of cymbals and saying the Kerie Leison to be absolute but not the all 'the rites of the church' as you are presuming.

You were critical of saying a hymn that was already said earlier in the Liturgy but aren't the doxologies already prayed in Matins? What if the deacons said Glory to You O Lord Sabaoth, a hymn for Matins, after the Gospel response.

Al-magdo lerab elsabaoth is a matins Nativity madeha. many of the madayeh can be said hand in hand with the doxologies (since they are all in the watos tune) and that's why it is acceptable to say it after the gospel response.

You said: "not ..................
How about all of the hymns that are chanted in English and Arabic during communion? Did the "fathers" state that we can say these? Did they approve each one by name or make a blanket written statement saying that any future hymns composed for communion are acceptable? Who are the "fathers" anyway?  Are they defined by a specific time period? Was every hymn written or approved by the "fathers"?

wow.....enta rayeh min el-sharq lel-gharbe to really disprove what you are saying......don't you think you are working just a little hard for a case that is already solved?! and despite that, i'll answer:
Our liturgy is set. Our hymns are in books and manuscripts. books that are approved by fathers from the Holy Synod. When i say Fathers, i refer to the Church clergymen, those who departed and those who are living. books are the ultimate trust-worthy source when it is validated.

apparently you are not gonna stop arguing....so let's take that to the pm if you would like to continue. enough hijacking posts.

[morcousw]

I am with those saying that the verses of cymbals should not be chanted.

Consider this:
During the lenten weekdays, we chant many things in the sorrowful tune (for example the kirie eleysons after the litanies after the prophecies). Many other things are in the lenten tune, which is also kind of sorrowful. The cymbals are not played during the weekdays. What, then, gives the jurisdiction to chant the verses of the CYMBALS (which are chanted in a joyful tune annually)? Is not silence more fitting for the day than a joyful hymn?

[ophadece]

Well said morcousw.. the rites are there are no cymbals, so how is it fitting to sing the verses of cymbals?
Dear Mina, I think the proper teaching is no madayeh at all, whether raising of incense, or end of liturgy..
OUJAI

[imikhail]

The hymn of kyrieleyson is the original hymn after the Thanksgiving prayer and was used to be chanted all year around.

After the introduction of the verses of the cymbals, the chanters quickly say kyrielayson to have time to chant the verses of the cymbals.

Great Lent rite preserved for us the original rite. So, I do urge chanters to learn this beautiful hymn.

I want to clear up a misconception about hymns. There are no sorrowful hymns in the Church but 5 main melodies or tunes: Annual, Kiahk, Lenten, paschal, and festal.

[imikhail]

The cymbals are not played during the weekdays. What, then, gives the jurisdiction to chant the verses of the CYMBALS (which are chanted in a joyful tune annually)? Is not silence more fitting for the day than a joyful hymn?

This is a misconception. The cymbals are to control the rhythm and the beat; they have nothing to do with making a hymn joyous.

Yes, currently the rule is not to use them during the Lent weekdays but this should not be so if we understand the real purpose of the cymbals. After all, we do use them on Great Friday.

[SWMSANMG]

How about for kirie eleison arba3 el naqoos... What to do there if we don't know it?

also nothing......say kerie leison and then ethrenhoos in the slowest way possible and just wait embarrassingly for abouna to finish the procession.

Explain to me why it is acceptable for you to recommend that the last verse of the verses of the cymbals be chanted but not any others? This is where your logic breaks down. You consider a quality source as coming from a book or a cantor.

Let us review what the cantors teach regarding what to say after the Prayer of Thanksgiving during Weekday Matins of the Great Lent:

1) Master Cantor Mikhail Girgis El-Batanouny - Kiriye Eleyson only - does not record any verses after it including Ethrenhos
2) Cantor Farag Abd Elmassih, a student of Cantor Mikhail - Kiriye Eleyson only - does not record any verses after it including Ethrenhos
3) Cantor Sadek Atallah, a student of Cantor Mikhail - Kiriye Eleyson only - does not record any verses after it including Ethrenhos
4) Cantor Fahim Girgis, studied with Cantor Mikhail - Kiriye Eleyson only - does not record any verses after it including Ethrenhos

It appears your recommendation is completely counter to what these cantors taught. None of them taught that Ethrenhos should be said after the hymn Kiriye Eleyson. From what I can see you or someone you learned that practice from "added" that. By your assessment that would be a terrible violation. Is it not? I know where you got it from but I will let you make the revelation.

You also recommended that if someone does not know Share Efnooti that they should "skip it" and go straight to Ekesmaroot. Says who? Says minatasgeel? Isn't ommitting something just as bad as adding something? Shouldn't he just read Share Efnooti without any tune and then say Ekesmaroot? Looks like this recommendation might be another blatant violation of what the "fathers" intended. If Share Efnooti is placed there shouldn't it at least be read? Who are we to just "skip it"? Do you see where I am going Mina?

I am still waiting for your sources regarding your statement that it is fine to chant the doxologies and Al Magd Lak Ya Rab Elsabaot after the Liturgy gospel response of the Feast of the Nativity. Do you actually have a source or are you just making inferences? If you are making inferences, why would your inferences be valid and not anyone elses?

You said: "We need to stop covering our own sins with misconceptions."

If hymn substitutions and the like are sins as you assert, then may God have mercy on all of us including clergy and bishops snce substitutions and modifications are commonplace.
 
I pray that God allow us all to serve with humility and understanding.

[morcousw]

Well said morcousw.. the rites are there are no cymbals, so how is it fitting to sing the verses of cymbals?

Thanks

I want to clear up a misconception about hymns. There are no sorrowful hymns in the Church but 5 main melodies or tunes: Annual, Kiahk, Lenten, paschal, and festal.

I was gonna say paschal, but in the SUS deacon service, for the lent rights, it mentions them as in the "sorrowful" tune or something. I was trying to be correct Guess I failed haha

Explain to me why it is acceptable for you to recommend that the last verse of the verses of the cymbals be chanted but not any others? This is where your logic breaks down. You consider a quality source as coming from a book or a cantor.

I don't think he is recommending it from his personal opinion.
The SUS Deacon Service states that the hymn Kirie Eleyson is chanted followed by Ethren Hos Erok.
However, in Albair's book (first edition, at least) it doesn't mention it.
http://www.copticheritage.org/rites/10_the_great_lent

However, I don't have the newest version of Albair's, and the SUS book is more recent and approved by HG Bishop Youssef so I'm going with it.

Really funny side note: This past Sunday at Liturgy (Preparation Sunday) I was at a priest ordination in Florida and a deacon took the mic during communion and said "Il som il som ya sha3b il messih" in the slow faray7ee tune. It was hilarious, but obviously incorrect.

[ophadece]

DEar imikhail,
You forgot the sha'anini tune, didn't you?
Dear SWMSANMG,
Thanks for clarifying the sources not to say atranhos at the end.. I'll definitely take up this in my practice (if allowed to.. hehe) from now on.. however, additions and modifications being commonplace doesn't mean we should stick to them.. when they are baseless we should stamp them out..
Oujai

[ilovesaintmark]

Silence is golden during Lent.

I appreciate that silence during the Covenant Thursday Liturgy in the different movements of that Rite/Liturgy.