Hey there

[Μιχαὴλ Ἕνρη]

Hey again,

Biboboy: I don't think it's a fair assessment to say that atheism is necessary for a true Christianity. Aside from the fact that I find it hard to believe that the great saints in our church who were "cradle" Christians had to have gone through a period of outright atheism in order to solidify their faith, it doesn't seem like a necessary part of being a Christian. It might be a bit extreme to say that.

With that said, there is more truth to what you say than falsehood. We all must go through (and grow through!) periods of time in our lives when God's presence seems to be utterly out of our lives. It's quite easy to become despondent and reject the idea of God's love and care and existence when we have no immediate experience of it. That's why Christ on the Cross imitated King David and said, "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?" Similar expressions of such despair are found all over the Bible. But does that means we must reject God and belief in His existence? Sure, it might not seem like He exists, especially since things seem to all go wrong, as if He is not taking care of us. So in that sense, you are correct. But why should we then lose faith in God? Should we not instead lose faith in our own momentary perception of God's presence?

Easier said than done, of course. Whoever doesn't struggle with doubts (these days, at least) is either over-protected, ignorant, or extremely blessed.

[Μιχαὴλ Ἕνρη]

<deleted>

[George_Mina]

Agape,

I'm not sure why everyone is so hard on Gabriel here already, when he just introduced himself. Perhaps he may have turned to atheism in his quest to understand more about his life, especially since he's been involved in the Coptic church and is studying its theology.

the rest of this message may not apply to Gabriel right now, but my audience here are those who are Christians and are going too hard on Gabriel admitting his atheism:

There's nothing wrong with atheism. A lot of people go through a period of atheism (not just agnosticism, but whole-hearted atheism) in long periods of their lives. Even I've been through it, and I'm a theologian!

One of the Russian priests (who was once an atheist too) taught that atheism is a phase in a true Christian life. I agree with that assessment. In fact, I think Christians who never went through a period of atheism in their lives are self-deceived about their faith! No one can be a Christian - a follower of Christ - without being Christ-like, experiencing the sorrow, the loneliness, and the emptiness of carrying the cross. For after this emptiness, there is found the fulness of Truth; after this sorrow, there is found victory; after this loneliness, there is found Love.

People who are Christians who turn to atheism are more truer Christians when they find Christ in their atheism.

So, I think everyone here over-reacted to Gabriel's confession of atheism, and judged him, when he's probably ahead of all of us spiritually!

I suppose a lot of the criticism stems from his previous threads. I do agree with a lot of what you said though- even given Gabriel's explanation as to why he attends youth meetings and Bible studies, I don't think it would be too outrageous to say that there may be something deeper that's compelling him to go. I went through this atheist phase too. I felt that my life was devoid of God, and I'd reached the conclusion that this was because he did not exist at all. Now I look back and see how foolish I was, but going through that phase has made my faith stronger today.

[George_Mina]

The God Christ: The short of it is, overtime I became unconvinced that God existed.

Yes I think historians by consensus agree that Jesus was a person that existed 2000 or so years ago. The disputes have really been about the claims of miracles and divine intervention that are mentioned in the bible.

Gabe,

The best way to know if God truly exists is to personally experience His guiding hand in your life. There is an enormous difference between knowing about God, and actually "knowing" God.

It is an extraordinary and miraculous thing that we mere mortals are able to live, interact, and become filled with the divine light of God.

To put it simply, "nothing else exists" when a person experiences this.

Have you tried to "know" God personally? Have you had the chance to know each Person of the Holy Trinity?

Do an hour of the Agpeya for one week. Put all your energy into it, be diligent, and do not miss any sessions. Confess that you are a sinner, devoid of any understanding. Cry out to this God, with all your might, and "spare not your throat." Pray that God grants you sheer faith within your heart.

If this God responds, if the peace of the Eternal Logos fills your heart, then you will know that there is something there...it is not just air or a wall. It is the Unknowable God who has made Himself knowable to us, weak and stupid selves we are.

This, above all else, will invalidate every qualm that you may have about miracles...

You have nothing to lose, and eternal peace to gain.

We will pray that His Will be done in your life.

✞✞✞

Please avoid Evangelical language in your posts. This isn't Orthodoxy AT ALL!

I see nothing wrong with it. Agpeya is pretty Orthodox.

✞✞✞

I think it was a beautiful post.

[✞TheGodChrist✞]

Now I look back and see how foolish I was, but going through that phase has made my faith stronger today.

Agreed. God sometimes uses these periods of doubt to make us stronger in the long run.

Happy 500th post!

[peter_saad]

The God Christ: The short of it is, overtime I became unconvinced that God existed.

Yes I think historians by consensus agree that Jesus was a person that existed 2000 or so years ago. The disputes have really been about the claims of miracles and divine intervention that are mentioned in the bible.

Gabe,

The best way to know if God truly exists is to personally experience His guiding hand in your life. There is an enormous difference between knowing about God, and actually "knowing" God.

It is an extraordinary and miraculous thing that we mere mortals are able to live, interact, and become filled with the divine light of God.

To put it simply, "nothing else exists" when a person experiences this.

Have you tried to "know" God personally? Have you had the chance to know each Person of the Holy Trinity?

Do an hour of the Agpeya for one week. Put all your energy into it, be diligent, and do not miss any sessions. Confess that you are a sinner, devoid of any understanding. Cry out to this God, with all your might, and "spare not your throat." Pray that God grants you sheer faith within your heart.

If this God responds, if the peace of the Eternal Logos fills your heart, then you will know that there is something there...it is not just air or a wall. It is the Unknowable God who has made Himself knowable to us, weak and stupid selves we are.

This, above all else, will invalidate every qualm that you may have about miracles...

You have nothing to lose, and eternal peace to gain.

We will pray that His Will be done in your life.

✞✞✞

Please avoid Evangelical language in your posts. This isn't Orthodoxy AT ALL!

I see nothing wrong with it. Agpeya is pretty Orthodox.

✞✞✞

I think it was a beautiful post.

That was a great post!

[George_Mina]

Now I look back and see how foolish I was, but going through that phase has made my faith stronger today.

Agreed. God sometimes uses these periods of doubt to make us stronger in the long run.

Happy 500th post!

Thanks  I'm throwing a 500th post party to celebrate. There's gonna be a piņata 

[TITL]

The party will take place in the Shoutbox.

Address:

777 Shoutbox Rd.
Tasbeha.org, America 77777

[Remnkemi]

Let's not sugar coat this. Moments of weakness in your Christian faith is NOT atheism. Atheism is a declaration that God does not exist based on pseudo-intellectualism. The rhetoric of the atheist is not "I am having doubts about God." It is "God is no different than Santa Clause and the Tooth Fairy". In liturgical language, we reinforce the Creed in all our services. In many instances, the people are instructed to say Amen or Alleluia as a personal confirmation of the faith. You cannot go to Church, attend liturgical services and refuse to share in the faith. Period. Atheism has no fellowship with Christianity. There is no fellowship between light and darkness. "Does a spring send forth fresh water and bitter from the same opening? Can a fig tree, my brethren, bear olives, or a grapevine bear figs?" James 3:11,12. You cannot go to the Church, the house of believers with no intention of accepting the Church's faith. Period.

It is apparent from the original post that "Church" means only Church services: youth meetings, bible study and such. In this case, I have a hard time seeing why one would go out of his way and attend a Church service (more than once) that instructs on the Coptic faith and still insist God does not exist. There must be ulterior motives. The most frequent motive atheist exhibit is to convince the average parishioner that an educated person will see how their faith is lacking through "logical" proof.. They are there to confuse people and drive a wedge into people's faith in the name of pseudo-intellectualism. It is a self-seeking evil. Look at what St James writes, "Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him show by good conduct that his works are done in the meekness of wisdom. But if you have bitter envy and self-seeking in your hearts, do not ... lie against the truth. This wisdom does not descend from above, but is earthly, sensual, demonic." James 3:13-15. Atheism is earthly, sensual and demonic. Period.

Gabriel, from your original post, you did not make it clear if you consider yourself an atheist or temporarily doubting the faith. If you don't want to believe in God, that's your choice and you will suffer any judgment from God. But to clarify, the Church will extend loving arms in hope of your return to the faith. But there is no tolerance to accept an atheist who refuses to change. Period.

It's bad enough that Protestant beliefs, customs, homosexuality, and socialism are covertly making a path and a door into the Church in the name of intellectualism. We don't need atheism to go through that door.

[Biboboy]

Agape,

Remenkimi, no one suggested that atheism should be preached from the pulpit of the church. It certainly is a denial of what the church believes, and affirmation of belief in God's presence and the grace given to us through the sacraments Christ instituted are essential in receiving the sacraments.

If you read my post carefully, all I was saying is that Christians who turn to atheism (not agnosticism, but atheism), are going through a spiritual stage in their lives. Do you suppose that those Christians, who received the grace of the Holy Spirit in their baptism, when they reject the existence of God because of what they heard in a university lecture, or youtube, of because of a personal situation that caused suffering - do you think that the Holy Spirit leaves them? My faith informs me that the Spirit will guide them even through this darkness of atheism. It will be difficult to hear the Spirit, but the Spirit is God's love calling. Blessed are those ears when they hear, and blessed are their eyes when they see! For those Christians-turned-atheists-turned-Christians turn out to be stronger in faith.

As for those who were born in atheistic households and never knew Christ... I just have to bring up one example in the Coptic church: Abouna Lazarus St. Antony. Look at what he's gone through, and where he is now.

Atheism doesn't last. Like you said, it's pseudo-intellectualism. I agree with that assessment, as most of these rationalists and logical positivists who are atheists just ridicule people of faith for being without reason, where they turn a blind eye to thousands of people (if not millions) who have a very rational faith - faith with understanding, and understanding with faith.

As a conclusion to what I've said, I suggest reading Fr. Seraphim Rose's book on Nihilism. You can find the book online for free on this website:
http://www.columbia.edu/cu/augustine/arch/nihilism.html

Here's one of the most famous statements made by this saintly monk of the United States:
"Atheism, true 'existential' atheism burning with hatred of a seemingly unjust or unmerciful God, is a spiritual state; it is a real attempt to grapple with the true God Whose ways are so inexplicable even to the most believing of men, and it has more than once been known to end in a blinding vision of Him Whom the real atheist truly seeks. It is Christ Who works in these souls. The Antichrist is not to be found primarily in the great deniers, but in the small affirmers, whose Christ is only on the lips. Nietzsche, in calling himself Antichrist, proved thereby his intense hunger for Christ...."

[Remnkemi]

Would you not consider ulterior motives if one dying of cancer goes to the oncology department of his local hospital to convince other cancer patients to refuse chemotherapy? Of course, we can rationalize his actions and say that he deserves to be there as much as any other cancer patient. But in reality he is not the same as the other patients who do not refuse medicine or claim oncological medical science is a myth. This person would not be admitted to the hospital. He would be forcefully removed by security. 

I understand that atheism can be considered a spiritual sickness. And I can even accept that atheism is not a "true" spiritual disease as Fr Seraphim Rose describes. I know the Church is the hospital for such infirmities. However, just like people who refuse physical medicine and medical advise, there are people who refuse spiritual medicine and are being harmful to those who are seeking help. Until they own their spiritual sickness, there is no reason to associate with them and their presence should be forcefully removed.

This is different from the Christian who suffers from moments of weakness. They acknowledge their weakness and seek the Holy Spirit to guide them through it, as you mentioned. But they already own their spiritual sickness.

Bibo, I wasn't attacking your post. I just wanted to make the distinction very clear since it seemed most people were of the opinion that the two conditions are the same. Subconsciously they seemed to believe, if the Christian suffering from moments of weakness is welcomed and expected to come to the Church, then the cradle atheist should enjoy the same right. No. Only the repentant enjoys the rights Christ gives to his Church.

Do you agree?

[TITL]

No fighting allowed at the party.

[Biboboy]

Bibo, I wasn't attacking your post. I just wanted to make the distinction very clear since it seemed most people were of the opinion that the two conditions are the same. Subconsciously they seemed to believe, if the Christian suffering from moments of weakness is welcomed and expected to come to the Church, then the cradle atheist should enjoy the same right. No. Only the repentant enjoys the rights Christ gives to his Church.

Do you agree?

So, by the same logic, St. Augustine had no right to enjoy hearing the words of God and its interpretation by St. Ambrose, when St. Augustine's aim during his attendance in the Milan cathedral was to ridicule and destroy the Church? By today's standards, St. Augustine was a militant heretic and atheist, and a very good speaker at that.

We haven't heard St. Ambrose rebuking St. Augustine that only the repentant can enjoy the "rights Christ gives to his Church." He let him stay to hear the words of God, and it was the Truth of God who changed him.

[GabrielYakub]

Pretty interesting discussion going on here, I'm just going to chime in for a second.

Remnkemi, I don't think its fair that you can jump to the conclusion that I or anyone else has an ulterior motive just because you have a "hard time seeing why one would go out of his way and attend Church...and still insist God does not exist".

Would I or any other person be justified in accusing you for having an ulterior motive just because we have a hard time seeing why you wold attend a mosque or a synagogue even though you claim that you would like to learn more about other people's religion as a Copt?

The answer is pretty clear.


Furthermore, you are in no position to claim what type of people the church will accept and what it will not in regards to your assertion that "there is no tolerance to accept an atheist who refuses to change. Period." My experience completely contradicts your statement. In addition I think its baseless claims like these, on a public forum that push away and discourage people from even attempting to come back to their own community. Please watch what you say, because you never know who could be reading your posts.

Peace.

[Edit: additional text]

[Μιχαὴλ Ἕνρη]

Perhaps it should be good to make a distinction between two types of atheism: honest and dishonest atheism.

The dishonest atheist seems to be the more common. He is the "pseudo-intellectual" that ridicules all belief in God simply because it seems like "rubbish" to him. Like Remnkimi said, God, to him, is like Santa Clause and the tooth fairy. He is not content in merely being an atheist, but he will only rest after he makes it know to the entire world that God doesn't exist. Instead of searching for the Truth, he is convinced he already has it. He has an agenda, and is too proud to realize he is just as illogical as the ones he accuses of a lack of logic.

The honest atheist, on the other hand, is probably less common. Perhaps he doesn't believe in God because he never saw the need to in his own experience, maybe because he was not raised in it, or because he felt rejected by the Church for having inordinate desires, or because he saw that the Church is made up of fallen human beings, and he could not reconcile any of that with the idea of a perfect and loving God, which he seeks. So, he does not believe. But his heart is good and pure, and he honestly seeks the Truth, if it is to be found.

I guess it depends on the heart. And the heart is a mystery, so we have no right to judge Gabriel's motives for remaining in the Church/church. Even if he has ulterior motives, God is clearly greater than they are, and is able to overcome them.

"Within the heart there are unfathomable depths; there are reception rooms and bedchambers within it, doors and porches and many offices and passages. In it is the workshop of righteousness; in it is the workshop of wickedness. In it is death, and in it is life. The heart itself is only a small vessel, yet dragons are there, and lions; there are poisonous beasts and all the treasures of evil; there are rough and uneven roads; there are precipices; but there too are God and the angels; life is there, and the kingdom; there too is light, and there the apostles, and heavenly cities, and treasures of grace. All things lie within that little space." - St. Macarius